IMTU. A new (old) start

[E.D.Quibell]

The evidence that the Imperium is a "... a remote centralized government possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm..." is the Rebellion itself.

Remember that the original protagaonists are reformers.

Stephon is a reformer and sees the need for reform but isn't willing to push against the status quo too much and takes the long term view. He's also an adminstarator more than an emporer. He's more willing to run than he is to fight. Stephon get's it spectacularly wrong because he believes in the system even though he sees the need to reform it.

Dulinor is a reformer and sees the need to reform and is willing to push against the status quo and takes the short term view. He sees Stephon as week and is willing to fight to achieve his aimes. He get's it specatullary wrong because he doesn't work within the system enough and that system is stronger than he had calculated.

By the by Norris get's it more right although not completly (too much yanks in space) he works within the system and uses events to obtain a position of ultimate power and then usesing the values of the original system and reforms it. He gets it wrong by excluding the original people in power thus undermining his own reforms. Once he's gone his system falls apart.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

What happened on Maleforge or what happens during corporate trade wars isn't something the Imperial nobility enjoys, desires, or otherwise actively supports. What happens isn't a goal of Imperial policy, instead it's a consequence of the Imperium being "... a remote centralized government possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm...".

The bit about the remote centralized government is from a very early source, before GDW's concept of the Imperium firmed up. As in other such cases (e.g. the Outrim Void in Leviathan), it turned out not to be the whole truth, or in some cases hardly any sort of truth at all. The government at Capital is indeed remote (from some parts of the Imperium, at least), but Imperial government isn't centralized at all. It is subdivided into 300 duchies (well, probably a bit less than that) with 300 much more local governments.

I think the individual duchies vary tremendously, and in most cases we know sod all about them. All we do know is that they are very far from being remote. Most worlds in a duchy will be one courier jump away from the duchy capital. None of them will be more than two jumps away.

Even the duchies we do know something about (mostly from adventures and amber zones that, as I pointed out, highlights flaws) have hardly been dealt with in detail. There's a subsector senator being held in an Imperial prison, we're told in The Kinunir. Is he there by order of Duke Norris or a small cabal of corrupt mid-level duchy officials or a single personal noble enemy? The overall nature of the government of the Duchy of Regina depends a lot on the answer, and we don't have it. And even if we did have the answer and even if it was that Norris is corrupt to the eyebrows and his government is as crooked as a three-dollar bill, what does that tell us about the Duchy of Trin or the Duchy of Star Lane or the Duchy of Cemplas? Nothing at all.

When you make statements about the Imperium as a whole, you're not just making statements about selected duchies in the Rim and the Marches, you're also talking about duchies in Core and Gushemege and all the other parts of the Imperium. How many general statements can you make that actually covers them all? Very few.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

This continued insistence in equating corruption with pragmatism and corruption with limited resources means that you're still consciously or unconsciously presuming the Imperium is a 21st Century Western nation-state structured on a basis of territorial sovereignty and complete with a separation of powers into neat little boxes labeled "legislature", "judiciary", and "executive". You just don't "grok" how, given comm lag inherent in jump drive, a polity as large as the Imperium must work. You may understand it on one level, but you still unconsciously presume the exact opposite on another.

The fact that the Imperial nobility cannot afford to do right all the time or punish evil-doers all the time is not an indication of the type of corruption you're blithely assuming. The fact that the Maleforge Event occurred in a given duchy doesn't mean that that duchy is corrupt. The fact that a someone with the title senator is being held aboard a prison hulk doesn't mean the Duchy of Regina is corrupt either. All those situations mean is that the local nobility in question had to take into account other concerns, concerns which very well may be honest and aboveboard.

In fact, the only thing that those situations do illustrate is the primary tenet about the Imperium which GDW maintained from the very beginning and throughout Traveller's run: That the Imperium is a "... a remote centralized government possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm...".

The Imperium doesn't have the resources or the time to be either the United States or the European Union. As that long ago TML member put it, the Imperium sometimes cannot afford to be good. It may wish to do good, but it manifestly cannot do good in all places at all times because it cannot be in all places at all times.

The Imperium zealously guards those few things which it believes are absolutely vital: the defense of the realm and the free movement of shipping within it. Everything after that is up for negotiation, everything after that is dealt on a case by case basis because the Imperium simply doesn't have the resources or time to do it any other way. Even within the duchies, communications lag mean the Imperium will more often choose not to act rather than act after the fact.

When making a decision, the local nobility will follow what policies are in place and which precedents apply. When making a decision, the local nobility will also balance the many and varied costs of Imperial intercession with the benefits derived from that intercession. Except in rare cases which involve those very few issues the Imperium feels are absolutely vital, the local nobility will not find their hands bound by some law or piece of legislation which require said noble to always respond to A and B with C and D.

That last bit is what those people who unconsciously and continually assume the Imperium is just a 57th Century version of the European Union always fail to truly comprehend.

In the end the hands of the man on the spot are not bound by laws, rules, and regulations. He has general policies and plenty of precedents to guide his decisions but, if he can successfully defend his actions to his superiors, if he can cover his ass, he can do pretty much what he damn well pleases. This is what GDW meant when it spoke of "feudalism" and of "rule by men and not by laws".

This Man-On-The-Spot style of governance means the Imperium is good and bad, weak and strong, honorable and corrupt, omniscient and blind. Maleforge and plague cures can and do exist in the same duchy because the Imperium does what it can and it chooses very carefully what it attempts to do.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

The fact that the Imperial nobility cannot afford to do right all the time or punish evil-doers all the time is not an indication of the type of corruption you're blithely assuming.

I'm assuming the kind of corruption that we see in the adventures and amber zones you seemed to be referring to, that's all.

The fact that the Maleforge Event occurred in a given duchy doesn't mean that that duchy is corrupt.

Especially since it's not a known fact that it happen in a duchy. My own guess would be somewhere in Foreven, but I'm not saying that's a fact either.

The fact that a someone with the title senator is being held aboard a prison hulk doesn't mean the Duchy of Regina is corrupt either. All those situations mean is that the local nobility in question had to take into account other concerns, concerns which very well may be honest and aboveboard.

The implication of the plot seed is that he's being held illegally.

In fact, the only thing that those situations do illustrate is the primary tenet about the Imperium which GDW maintained from the very beginning and throughout Traveller's run: That the Imperium is a "... a remote centralized government possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm...".

Why would you persit in propounding this erroneous notion right after I've refuted it? Not the part about GDW maintaining it from the beginning, of course; your quote is ample proof that they maintained it at one, early, point. But that they maintained it for more than a short while is provably untrue. At the very most they maintained it until Library Data (A-M) was published (in 1980) and it was stated outright that "Interstellar government begins at the subsector level". It's on p. 7 of LDAM, under the heading of 'Feudalism' (Which turned out upon further exposition to be autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings rather than feudalism, but that's by the way).

I fairly sure they went off that particular idea earlier than that, but I could be wrong and I can't be bothered to root through the publications and make a case; I'm content to sticking to LDAM and 1980.

As I said in my previous post, no world in a duchy is more than two jumps away by high-performance courier from the duchy capital; most are within one jump. Imperial government on the subsector level is NOT remote.

As for the resources available to a duke, we don't know just how much it is, but assuming the fleet stationed in his subsector is obligated to pay a little attention to his wishes, that fleet alone represents considerable assets.

The Imperium doesn't have the resources or the time to be either the United States or the European Union. As that long ago TML member put it, the Imperium sometimes cannot afford to be good. It may wish to do good, but it manifestly cannot do good in all places at all times because it cannot be in all places at all times.

It cannot micro-manage member worlds and one of its basic principles is that it isn't allowed to try. That's what internal autonomy for member worlds mean (Though I can't recall offhand where or if that particular principle was ever spelled out).

In the end the hands of the man on the spot are not bound by laws, rules, and regulations. He has general policies and plenty of precedents to guide his decisions but, if he can successfully defend his actions to his superiors, if he can cover his ass, he can do pretty much what he damn well pleases. This is what GDW meant when it spoke of "feudalism" and of "rule by men and not by laws".

How do you know what GDW meant unless it's spelled out in print somewhere? I'm having trouble enough keeping track of what they wrote; what they meant is beyond me except when one of them let slip a hint in a private conversation. (And even then I sometimes suspect their memories may not always be 100% accurate. I know my memory of what I did 33 years ago is a bit hazy on some points).


Hans

 

[aramis]

You have NOT proven that the 3I isn't corrupt, nor does the quote about interstellar government beginning at the subsector disprove the early understanding of the OTU - in point of fact, Hans, you've proven nothing, other than, perhaps, that you have drunk the "GT Kool-Aid"... You look at all the mid-years sources through a GT lens. (Which said CT sources do indicate a change in tack about 1980, but not to a stable/safe 3I; instead a change to a high-traffic big ship universe from a small ship mid/low-traffic one.) The GDW sources show a corrupt, mostly hands off setting, where being a crook is one of several optimal paths to survival... the others include hiding out on a major world and holding a boring job, and other "Not for PC" type solutions.

The "Big Gov, Stable 3I" is a GT-ism. It really isn't supported by the CT texts, and is only implied in the MT texts by counterpoint - but not proven by MT. The "Safes" on the MT maps are not all that safe - they just use the old CT level threat rates, rather than the higher ones of the war zones.

 

[rancke]

You have NOT proven that the 3I isn't corrupt...

No, indeed. But then, I didn't claim that I had.

...nor does the quote about interstellar government beginning at the subsector disprove the early understanding of the OTU

It proves that Imperial government is not remote and centralized.


Hans

 

[aramis]

No, indeed. But then, I didn't claim that I had.


It proves that Imperial government is not remote and centralized.


Hans

Not really. It proves that there is an intermediate government, not that the Imperium isn't remote and centralized.

In exactly the same way, the US Gov't is remote (at least from the west coast) and centralized, and state governments do not disprove it from being that.

 

[rancke]

In exactly the same way, the US Gov't is remote (at least from the west coast) and centralized, and state governments do not disprove it from being that.

In exactly the same way that state governments provide governance that isn't as remote as the Federal government in Washington, duchy government provide governance that isn't as remote as Capital.


Hans

 

[aramis]

In exactly the same way that state governments provide governance that isn't as remote as the Federal government in Washington, duchy government provide governance that isn't as remote as Capital.


Hans

Which means the Subsector (NOT "Duchy") government is NOT the Imperial government.

Calling them Duchy governments is a GT-ism. Hell, calling them governments is a bit of a stretch based upon what we see in CT... There's a duke who oversees the subsector navy; he appears to have no other canonical powers.

And S11:LD N-Z has the following wonderful quote: "Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium, or of the sectors." (p. 7)

This directly seems to contradict the section on feudalism in S8:LD A-M, unless one considers subsector dukes to not actually have any ability to make or enforce laws of their own, to merely be functionaries of the sector or imperial governments.

Also interesting to note is that the Nobles article in S11:LD N-Z uses the wording "associated with" for all but sector dukes and archdukes.

 

[Dragoner]

Cryton,

Everything any planetary government, megacorp, noble, or other mover & shaker does in the 3I depends on political cover. Don't have it and even previously legal activities are impossible. Have it and you can quite literally commit murder. Look at the so-called Imperial Rules of War for example.

In Aces and Eights, an Imperial regiment is destroyed in a sneak bio-war attack by the people who are now the planetary government. Are there Tigresses now orbiting the planet filling the skies with Marine jump troopers?

Hell no.

The planetary government in question got a mulligan this time because they had political cover at the imperial level. The whys and wherefores of that cover can only be guessed at, but it exists all the same because the people who launched the bio-war attack which killed Imperial servicemen aren't dancing on the end of a rope or rotting aboard a prison hulk.

Regards,
Bill

Great post, Bill. It gave me an idea for an Amber Zone called En passant.

Say it was a powerplay between two Dukes, a Subsector Duke and Sector Duke, the Sector Duke, sent in the 1138th which tread on the turf of the Subsector Duke. In response, the Subsector Duke gave the offending world the Bio-weapons to "fix" the situation, esp because that world was part of his power base. Now the Sector Duke can't leave it alone, he has to give his lesser a "message" which he does by hiring a hit squad.

That's where the players come in, not necessarily as the hit squad, maybe just hired by the Duke's factor to escort them, or maybe hired by the lesser Duke to track them down. This could all be done by various factors of the Dukes so the players don't really know who they are working for or which side they are on. They are the pawns, and if something goes wrong, they could be left twisting in the wind, giving whoever plausible deniability. Maybe the Sector Duke doesn't even expect the hit squad to get through, just their presence, is enough to send the message.

The Navy being "the sword of the Emperor", could be played either way:
1) They know and don't care.
2) They don't know and don't care.
3) They don't know and do care.
or to be really devious They know and are watching, and using the situation as a fait accompli to see two troublesome Dukes removed, after which they get to put in their own people.

The lesser Dukes people might be an interesting situation as well, maybe they are too afraid to defend their Duke, or maybe they have been paid off to look the other way? Maybe the Navy is pressuring them to stand aside; there are a lot of possibilities and the player party could be swept up in any of the scenarios.

-Robert

 

[rancke]

Which means the Subsector (NOT "Duchy") government is NOT the Imperial government.

Calling them Duchy governments is a GT-ism.

As far as I am concerned, it's actually more of a me-ism. I began advocating distinguishing between the two long before GT. According to LDAM:7, the ruler of a subsector is a duke. Saying that a political unit run by a duke is not a duchy is meaningless. It may not be called a duchy, but according to CT texts, a subsector is a duke's realm is a subsector. And if that was all there was to it, there'd be no need to distinguish between the two.

Only, there are canonical examples of subsectors that are NOT ruled by dukes and duke's realms that are not a single subsector. Jewell is a county answering to the Duke of Regina. The Marquis of Aramis is a vassal of the Count of Celepina. Mertactor and Mille Falcs are part of Glisten. Pax Rulin is administered from Glisten. And though nothing is said about Lanth, its population is two orders of magnitude smaller than the average subsector.

So for convenience, I've tried to promote making a distinction between subsectors and duchies. But in most cases the distinction is moot. In most cases there is no difference. I just think it's convenient to be able to dinstinguish in those few cases where there is one. It really has no relevance whatsoever to this discussion. If you like, I can try to remember to use the term 'Duke's Realm' instead.

Hell, calling them governments is a bit of a stretch based upon what we see in CT... There's a duke who oversees the subsector navy; he appears to have no other canonical powers.

There's a duke who is the head of the first level of interstellar government.

And S11:LD N-Z has the following wonderful quote: "Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium, or of the sectors." (p. 7)

I think that is a misprint for 'subsector'. I have no evidence for that beyond the fact that it makes sense.

This directly seems to contradict the section on feudalism in S8:LD A-M, unless one considers subsector dukes to not actually have any ability to make or enforce laws of their own, to merely be functionaries of the sector or imperial governments.

That would contradict another part of canon: "[The subsector duke] has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors." [LDAM:7]


Hans

 

[aramis]

That would contradict another part of canon: "[The subsector duke] has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors." [LDAM:7]


Hans

That's not "another," that's the part I was referencing.

Unless one reads S7 p7 as a free hand in how he goes about doing so, so long as it isn't by making laws.

And, for most of a sector, the sector duke is still distant.

 

[BlackBat242]

I relate the Dukes of the 3I to the Governor-Generals of Australia and Canada.

While the governments are technically autonomous, they are over-watched by the GGs.

The GGs do have the power to take certain steps (removing a PM, etc), but do not have the authority to actually administer the laws or direct the functioning of the government.


The civil governments of the sectors/sub-sectors are basically autonomous, but they are overseen by the Dukes.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Men not Laws.

The Nobles of the Imperium ... are the Imperium.

There is no distinction between the Nobles of the Imperium and the Imperial Government. They are the same thing.

There are no elected officials, there are no posts or jobs that people fill, there is no "Government" as such that we as a modern sociaty would call a government.

There are the Nobles of the Imperium and there is the Emporer.

Try thinking of the British Government _before_ the Magna Carta.

Imperial Law is a matter of Imperial Proclomation, policy and precident. There is no codified body of "law" as we in modern western sociaty would recognise it.

The only legiistary boady is the Emperoer, the "courts" are noble courts, not civil or criminal ones, there are no judges, just Nobles.

Men not Laws.

Honour, Duty, Loyalty, Personal Responsibilty for the good of and in the name of the Emperor.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[aramis]

There is no distinction between the Nobles of the Imperium and the Imperial Government. They are the same thing.

Not supported in canon, and contradicted in several places, including places quoth in this very thread.

Specifically, albeit not relevant to Cryton's new view (since he's essentially looking at it from a "prototraveller view" - and I'm not, tho I steered him that way...), the Imperium has both a written law mentality as evidenced by both the edict 97 blurb in Adv 1 and S8 LD A-M and by the S11: LD N-Z section on nobles that notes that legislation is a function of the sector and imperial governments.

It's a nice diatribe to shout "Men, not laws!" but it's bogus when trying to figure out the canon universe, as it's clear there is a very real sense of "Imperial Law" in even the early adventures (A1-A4). Likewise, the uniformity of requirements for passage can only be one of two things: evidence of a legal code or a game artifice artifact, and they are not exclusive.

Heck, page 6 of S11: LD N-Z, reads (in part)

The lmperium is best considered to rule the space that separates the stars rather than the worlds themselves. Individual worlds are left to their own devices, providing they pay their taxes, acknowledge the power of the Imperium, and obey the basic laws it promulgates.​

Emphasis mine.

It can be said from S11 that subsector dukes can't legislate (which is exactly what proclamations are - legislation by declaration and publication) nor decide enforcement (in other words, they are subject to sector level decisions on that score)... Men Not Laws can resolve the conflict for what they do, by inference...

Let's look at the various functions of government:

1. Legislation (creation of laws; classically, by any means including proclamation by competent authority)
2. Provide external defense (Military)
3. Enforcement of previous legislation
4. administration of programs
5. monitoring of threats and assets (both internal and external)
6. Judging cases of law
7. Judging cases of crime (which may be construed as part of Enforcement)
8. Judging civil cases (property and contract)

Depending upon coarseness of the list, one could shrink it to the classic three (Legislative, Executive, Judicial), but as the canon quotes limit only part of executive, breaking them down further is of value. Legislation is restricted to Sector and Imperial levels. Administration of Programs is Sector, Domain and Imperial, at least for the Navy, Marines, and Scouts... and Subsector has dual chain, sector naval and subsector duke...

Subsector Dukes have some mission (even if only to look pretty), but the implications are they function as agents of the Sector Duke, not as independent authority, and have military and probably tax collection/collation duties, and may have a judicial role (but that borders on enforcement).

This also implies something about piracy - The Sector duke is responsible for rooting out pirates, by implication, since enforcement is reserved to the Sector Governments and the Imperium. And piracy sounds very much like an enfocement issue, not properly a defense issue. (So long as they stick to ships, not worlds, any subsector ducal action is likely to be "unofficial."

 

[rancke]

Unless one reads S7 p7 as a free hand in how he goes about doing so, so long as it isn't by making laws.

It is rather bizarre to speak of someone having a free hand in governing if he has to refer all his legislative functions to a higher authority, and it's sheer nonsense to claim that if such is the case he is not subject to something a good deal more stringent than 'only broad guidelines'.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Not supported in canon, and contradicted in several places, including places quoth in this very thread.

Disagree. It's just that mine and your interpritaion of the same cannon differ.

Specifically, albeit not relevant to Cryton's new view (since he's essentially looking at it from a "prototraveller view" - and I'm not, tho I steered him that way...), the Imperium has both a written law mentality as evidenced by both the edict 97 blurb in Adv 1 and S8 LD A-M and by the S11: LD N-Z section on nobles that notes that legislation is a function of the sector and imperial governments.

Agreed, as I posted "Imperial Law is a matter of Imperial Proclomation, policy and precident" which as it happens is backed up by your citation.

Page 7 goes on to say "Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium, or of the sectors." However this is in reference to the Domains and Arch Dukes having little practcal significance, in the running of the Imperim and collecting taxes, not as a direct reference to the set-up of the Imperial Govenment.

My interpritation is that the "Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium" The Emporer Legislates via Imperial Proclomation, and enforces via the sector Dukes, who also (by inference) collect the taxes.

t's a nice diatribe to shout "Men, not laws!" but it's bogus when trying to figure out the canon universe, as it's clear there is a very real sense of "Imperial Law" in even the early adventures (A1-A4). Likewise, the uniformity of requirements for passage can only be one of two things: evidence of a legal code or a game artifice artifact, and they are not exclusive.

Diatribe is a bit strong don't you think? but that is an aside.

The clear sense of Imperial Law are the Imperial Proclomations, which are not a body politic of law as we see them today as a modern western socialy. This is more law by Royal Proclomation pre Magna Carta as I said in my post, and as evidenced by your citations.

Heck, page 6 of S11: LD N-Z, reads (in part)

The lmperium is best considered to rule the space that separates the stars rather than the worlds themselves. Individual worlds are left to their own devices, providing they pay their taxes, acknowledge the power of the Imperium, and obey the basic laws it promulgates.​

Emphasis mine.

Agreed. This makes my point. Imperial Proclomation.

It can be said from S11 that subsector dukes can't legislate (which is exactly what proclamations are - legislation by declaration and publication) nor decide enforcement (in other words, they are subject to sector level decisions on that score)... Men Not Laws can resolve the conflict for what they do, by inference...

My interpritation is that they can't legislation (so agreed with your point), however they enforce; all the ministaries report to them on a sector basis. And collect taxes.

Let's look at the various functions of government:

1. Legislation (creation of laws; classically, by any means including proclamation by competent authority)
2. Provide external defense (Military)
3. Enforcement of previous legislation
4. administration of programs
5. monitoring of threats and assets (both internal and external)
6. Judging cases of law
7. Judging cases of crime (which may be construed as part of Enforcement)
8. Judging civil cases (property and contract)

Depending upon coarseness of the list, one could shrink it to the classic three (Legislative, Executive, Judicial), but as the canon quotes limit only part of executive, breaking them down further is of value. Legislation is restricted to Sector and Imperial levels. Administration of Programs is Sector, Domain and Imperial, at least for the Navy, Marines, and Scouts... and Subsector has dual chain, sector naval and subsector duke...

Subsector Dukes have some mission (even if only to look pretty), but the implications are they function as agents of the Sector Duke, not as independent authority, and have military and probably tax collection/collation duties, and may have a judicial role (but that borders on enforcement).

This also implies something about piracy - The Sector duke is responsible for rooting out pirates, by implication, since enforcement is reserved to the Sector Governments and the Imperium. And piracy sounds very much like an enfocement issue, not properly a defense issue. (So long as they stick to ships, not worlds, any subsector ducal action is likely to be "unofficial."

Agreed. (only Arch Dukes only come into play post Stephon. It's all Sector Dukes until then.)

Legislative - Emporer
Executive and Judicial - Nobles

Which is why I say that the Imperial government and the Imperial Nobles are the same thing. Beacuse that's what canon says.

The Adminstration of Imperial Law is (pre MT) on a Sector and a Subsector basis i.e. the Dukes, who ensure the couties and the baronies in their patch toe the line. However as those Counts and Barons are vassels of the Emporer and not the Dukes, they are also resposibile for the adminstration of Imperial Law in their patch, it's just the administration of the ministaries and forces works on a subsector and sector level.

Imperial Proclomations, even over 1100 years, do not constitue a boady of Law such as we have in the US or the UK, and it's implementation is interperatied by the representative of the Emporer on the spot at the time (the Imperial Noble), helped by policy and precident.

Men not Laws (I'm sure there is a canon reference to that somewhere). Which goes back to my statement that the Imperial Nobels and the Imperial Govenment are the same thing.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

That's not "another," that's the part I was referencing.

Unless one reads S7 p7 as a free hand in how he goes about doing so, so long as it isn't by making laws.

And, for most of a sector, the sector duke is still distant.

Bingo.

Men not Laws.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

It is rather bizarre to speak of someone having a free hand in governing if he has to refer all his legislative functions to a higher authority, and it's sheer nonsense to claim that if such is the case he is not subject to something a good deal more stringent than 'only broad guidelines'.


Hans

They use: Imperial Proglomation, policy and precident.

That's how the Imperium is run. Government by the interperitation of the Imperial Nobel who is present.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

They use: Imperial Proclamation, policy and precedent.

That's how the Imperium is run. Government by the interpretation of the Imperial Noble who is present.

Just to be clear, we're talking about what the early publications say and imply about how the Imperium is run. In my case, I'm talking up to the publication of the Library Data. Once we go beyond that, there's all sorts of additional information on the subject, but it can be argued that those are reinterpretations of earlier intentions.

The controversy is over two equally canonical statements: That the dukes who are in charge of the subsectors are only subject to broad guidelines and that legislation is the prerogative of the sectors (and the Imperium).

Those two statements are IMO mutually contradictory. If a subsector duke interprets a broad guideline, he is legislating. At the very least he's establishing a precedent for how the broad guideline is supposed to be interpreted. If he writes a note about how to interpret a broad guideline and sends it to his deputies elsewhere in the subsector, he is legislating by edict.

Note that I'm not saying that a system where the duke isn't allowed to interpret the law isn't perfectly possible; I'm just saying that if he isn't allowed to interpret the law then he needs more than broad guidelines. Much more.

The best way to resolve the discrepancy is to consider 'sector' a misprint for 'subsector'. It has the added advantage of conforming to everything that GDW and their successors eventually developed about the Imperium.


Hans