IMTU. A new (old) start

[rancke]

Further thought

It just struck me that the question of whether a subsector duke is allowed to legislate is irrelevant. If he has the authority to answer the question, "Hey, Duke, to settle a bet, does this broad guideline promulgated by our remote and centralized government allow me to do thus and so?", then he's providing non-distant government.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Just to be clear, we're talking about what the early publications say and imply about how the Imperium is run. In my case, I'm talking up to the publication of the Library Data. Once we go beyond that, there's all sorts of additional information on the subject, but it can be argued that those are reinterpretations of earlier intentions.

Agreed.

The controversy is over two equally canonical statements: That the dukes who are in charge of the subsectors are only subject to broad guidelines and that legislation is the prerogative of the sectors (and the Imperium).

I think you are taking the second statement out of contect.

The second statment is in full "Currently, the domains have little practical significance. The lmperial navy no longer includes the domains as a level in its bureaucracy. The domains collect no taxes. Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium, or of the sectors. Outside the Imperium, the domain has never been more than a convenient map reference."

Thus the second statment does read "Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium" i.e. the Emporer (which I'm sure we can all agree with) and I interperate the second half of the statment ", or of the sectors." to be that of enforcment and tax collection because the contect of which the sentance describing is that of the Domains and Arch Dukes who have little actual powers. So out of context the statment can't relate directly to the Imperial legastlative powers without further evidence backing this up.

Those two statements are IMO mutually contradictory. If a subsector duke interprets a broad guideline, he is legislating. At the very least he's establishing a precedent for how the broad guideline is supposed to be interpreted. If he writes a note about how to interpret a broad guideline and sends it to his deputies elsewhere in the subsector, he is legislating by edict.

No Hans that's incorrect. When the Duke interprets a broad guideline and uses this he is setting precident, and when he writes it down and sends it to his deputies he is writing policy. Neither of which is legislating. It's interpertation and documentation of interpritation, it's not making the law.

Note that I'm not saying that a system where the duke isn't allowed to interpret the law isn't perfectly possible; I'm just saying that if he isn't allowed to interpret the law then he needs more than broad guidelines. Much more.

No. Again I disagree. He has the Law (the Imperial Proclomations) and he is subject to broad guidlines (their interpritation and policy from on high) how he further interpertes these is up to him as long as he stays within those two. This allows him considerable leeway to do as he wishes. Unlitmatly he has to answer to those above him otherwise he will be stripped of title and priverlages, and this thus limits how far he can go in his interpritation.

The best way to resolve the discrepancy is to consider 'sector' a misprint for 'subsector'. It has the added advantage of conforming to everything that GDW and their successors eventually developed about the Imperium.

I don't have an issue with sector/subsector differences because I interperate cannon as all Imperial Nobels are the Imperium Government in their own patch (or representatives of the Emporer (which to me is pretty much all the same thing)). A Duke is a Duke. A sector Duke is first amoung equals and has all the Regional Imperial Minstarial/Forces HQs in his patch and thus has more direct infulance over precident and policy. The Imperial adminastration is brocken down as Capital (Core), Sector Capital, Subsector Captial. It's only when Stephon brings back the Arch Dukes that the Domains come into play.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

It just struck me that the question of whether a subsector duke is allowed to legislate is irrelevant. If he has the authority to answer the question, "Hey, Duke, to settle a bet, does this broad guideline promulgated by our remote and centralized government allow me to do thus and so?", then he's providing non-distant government.

Hans

I can certainly see your point

The Duke (who I would say is the Imperial Government) is providing non-distant interpritation using broad guidelines (precident and policy) of distant Legislation (the Imperial Proclomations).

So if you interperate the Government as the institution that creates the Law (The Emporer) then it is distant (if you are in the Spinward Marches but not if you are in Core (but I'm sure you know what I mean)).

However if you interperate Government as the Executive and Judiciary (the police and the courts) then it's local.

A Duke/Duchess is the Local Executive and Judiciary or the remote Legislation (the Imperial Proclomations), using broad guidlines (the precident and policy) set by the Emporer, for the Emporer.

The only legislative power of the Moot (the Collective body of Imperial Nobles) is to disband itself and thus the Imperium (because they are the same thing). This effectivly breaks fealty and loyalty to the Emporer (or his heirs) and means that it's everyone and everything (i.e. the Mega Corps and the Imperial Navy/Scouts ets) for themselves. Which is never likely to be in their best interests. It also means that it completly negates all Imperial Law as all Imperial Proclomations would cease to exist. This legislative power completly disbands the complete Government of the Imperium for ever in it's interraty. And this is the ultimate check and balance of the Emporer.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[aramis]

Ewan:

your whole argument fails on the simple fact that proclamation IS legislation.

Subsector Dukes do not Govern in their own right by proclamation - it's a sector level function. They do not run enforcement agencies; same restriction. At least not per CT canon.

The Imperium makes laws by proclamation of sector dukes and the emperor. That rejects the whole "Men, Not Laws" diatribe, and diatribe isn't a strong enough term for it.

You and Hans put way too much on "a free hand..."

 

[rancke]

Subsector Dukes do not Govern in their own right by proclamation - it's a sector level function. They do not run enforcement agencies; same restriction. At least not per CT canon.

Sector dukes are subsector dukes who in addition to running their own subsector oversee and coordinate sector level activities. They are not the overlords of their fellow subsector dukes, merely primus inter pares and have no legislative powers qua being sector duke, only administrative ones.

Oh, wait a minute... that's what we're discussing, isn't it? I really shouldn't state it as an incontrovertible fact, should I?

Wil, you have one statement about the sectors having legislative powers and subsectors not having it. If that was the sum total of CT canon, then you would be indisputably right. But it's not.

I think the 'sector' in that statement is a mistake for 'subsector'. Can I prove that? No, I can't. I can point out that some elements in the same text seem to contradict it, and I can show that later developments are consistent with my supposition, but I can't know whether GDW intended this from the start of if they meant the one about the sectors and later changed their minds.

But neither can you.

And just to remind you, the question is irrelevant, because whether or not a subsector duke has the authority to legislate, he definitely has the authority to act, and he is very much not remote from events in his subsector and can respond to crises within weeks.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So if you interperate the Government as the institution that creates the Law (The Emporer) then it is distant (if you are in the Spinward Marches but not if you are in Core (but I'm sure you know what I mean)).

However if you interperate Government as the Executive and Judiciary (the police and the courts) then it's local.

A Duke/Duchess is the Local Executive and Judiciary or the remote Legislation (the Imperial Proclomations), using broad guidlines (the precident and policy) set by the Emporer, for the Emporer.

The way I see it (and here I'm going to draw on the whole body of canon, not just the early bits, and extrapolate a bit too) is that the Emperor legislates in two ways. One way is that his ministries work out complete and explicit laws for the entire Imperium and the Emperor then proclaim it to be Imperial law. The other way is that he sends out an edict that expresses his desires in broad terms: "The duchies shall establish legislation to achieve this or that broad goal" [with due attention paid to local conditions of which the distant central government has no chance in hell of knowing enough to make intelligent decisions].

The whole point of having a local governor is that he can react faster and know more about local conditions. A rule that works for Duchy A would cause chaos and despondency in Duchy B. So the Emperor instructs his dukes what goals he wants them to achieve and leaves it to them to work out how.

Sometimes an Imperial edict may include a suggestion for a duchy level law that the dukes can adopt as is or adapt to fit local conditions. Dukes will often coordinate with neighboring dukes to dovetail laws with each other. Dukes in a sector may use summit meetings to hammer out sector level provisions, then each of them enacting those provisions for their respective duchies.

Certain Imperial activities has to be coordinated at the sector level. One subsector duke in each subsector gets the additional administrative duty of overseeing and coordinate these functions. The chief of which is the Imperial Navy, but other Imperial agencies are also organized at the sector level. Top level MoJ agents, for example, get Ducal warrants from the sector duke that are valid in the whole sector (but limited to crimes that fall within their jurisdiction, of course).

The above is my opinion, not canon, although I believe it is fully compatible with all known canon on the subject except for one sentence that is, I believe, the result of a mistake.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

In SMC, Norris is just head of a local civil service bureaucracy and has no control over Santanocheev and the Navy (pg11). Which makes sense, the navy is Imperial as a counter balance to the bureaucracy which is run by the nobility.

 

[rancke]

In SMC, Norris is just head of a local civil service bureaucracy and has no control over Santanocheev and the Navy (pg11). Which makes sense, the navy is Imperial as a counter balance to the bureaucracy which is run by the nobility.

Nothing in that to contradict my version. Santanocheev at that point had been promoted to Sector Admiral (or rather, IMO, been brevetted by Delphine due to an unexpected concatenation of events causing the loss of the former sector admiral and his immediate successors[*] [this is supposition, not canon, based on the fact that Santanocheev had been in a position suitable for a much more junior admiral just the year before]). Naval operations involve sector-level coordination and so doesn't fall under the authority of individual subsector dukes.

[*] I haven't quite settled on the exact events, but I'm leaning towards this one: There were four people with the rank of sector admiral (of the line) in the Spinward Marches: The Sector Admiral, the Deputy Sector Admiral, the CinC Coreward Command at Rhylanor, and the CinC Rimward Command at Glisten. The Deputy SA and the CinCCC was exposed as principals of a massive procurement scam and indicted; one of the others had an accident and the last a heart attack. Delphine stepped in and used her imperium to appoint a new sector admiral, but instead of selecting one of the senior fleet admirals, she selected the relatively junior Santanocheev, who just happened to be the son of one of her counts.​

Once again, please note that I'm not claiming that my version is the only possible one, just that it is one possible one (and IMO quite a plausible one, but then, I would believe that, wouldn't I? )


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

It seems Santanocheev, was promoted by politics, which is often how militaries are run. Even though idealistically a meritocracy, the results can be far different. IMTU, and what seems to be supported by canon, is that the Navy is separated from the nobility (at least until MT which changes it to fit the rebellion). This provides a sytem of counterbalance of:

1. Local authority (world governments).
2. Noble authority (civil bureaucracy, subsector, sector government).
3. Imperial authority (military, scouts, interstellar commerce).

IMTU, like ancient Rome, the Nobility's main function is as tax collectors, of which they are personally responsible for the portion of taxes if it falls under and reap a windfall if it over. The fabric of the Imperium is like 15th-16th century central europe under the Holy Roman Empire, with the position of the nobles and Emperor somewhat similar (though the Emperor also has fealty like the Japanese Emperor and the Nobles feud like in Dune). The commercial interests are like the Burghers and a Nobles holdings are not necessarily well defined; eg a Count or Baron may actually have more territorial holdings than a Duke. Much like central europe, it is competitive and the Imperial forces only step in when things get out of control. This makes the Sector Admirals very powerful, as the decider of conflicts, however at the same time they have to be careful to not step on toes or they can be relieved of duty. Mercenary forces are quite common (such as the Landsknechte were), some just as ready hires, but so as they are not loyal to just a single banner and to provide some plausible deniability to their employers. The system does not and should not make perfect sense, as often governments do not and history, like in Europe around the 15th century shows as well. The layers make sense though and the rivalry between various competing groups fulfills the conditions set out in Bk 4&5 and leave a lot of room for adventurers.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Pouring some more gas on the fire.

So, I keep seeing everyone talking about the Emperor, the Dukes and here and there. the MegaCorps, but no one seems to be taking either the Senate or the Moot into account. Why not?

I can see that the Senate must not be all that important, after all Senators can get locked up on the Gash (I am pretty sure that is the prison barge, but too lazy to get up and check) without so much as a peep from the media (TNS) or anyone other than their family for that matter. So perhaps we can skip the Senate, which we never really hear of again as it is.

But the Moot, well, that has been around since Clean founded the Third Imperium, so what do they do there? I always thought they were the source of Law. The Emperor rules by Proclamation, Decree, Edict, and Warrant, none of these actually are law, code or statute. For those I figured that was what the Moot did, that and of course confirming Citizen So and So as Deputy Minister of Commerce, setting and approving the Budgets of the Ministries and Military and such.

So, how come no one is talking about what they do? Seems to me they have a chunk of power in the Imperium, just one that seems to be overlooked.

 

[Enoki]

I would assume, in my version of things, that with nobility comes obligation. The nobility on some world has a hierarchy. The sub-sector has a hierarchy, the sector one, the Imperium one.

The nobility would work hand in hand with the economic powers likewise. That is, the nobility, heads of corporations, and filthy rich (non-nobles) would have some sort of "gentleman's agreement' to get things done.

The major role of the nobility would be to keep the peace and make war. To that end nobles would be given writs or some other means to allow them to raise private regiments that they maintain at their expense taking taxes or other wealth from corporations, the rich, or through general taxation. Navies would be raised in part the same way.

So, a Marquis on some planet would have the power to tell each knight on the planet "raise a battalion of troops for service" or something like that. The Marquis might then provide a regiment or division for the sub-sector. The money would come from taxes. The corporations would have a say in things at the same level.

Thus, a megacorporation like, say, Ling might go to a Duke or Marquis and say "We paid for your troops so you owe us. Grant us this 10,000 acre parcel so we can strip mine it for gold."

Knights might be used for particular missions where a noble is required but it involves danger or serious discomfort to complete. A Knight might be rewarded with a raise in status as a result.

Nobles in corporations would be go-betweens. They would be looking out for the corporation but also be part of the political system. That power would give them the ability to cut better deals for their employer while gaining status politically.

So, for a player that is a noble he or she might have to maintain a company to battalion of troops or possibly a sizable warship out of personal funds and be "on call" to a Marquis, Count or, Duke for service if required.

 

[aramis]

So, how come no one is talking about what they do? Seems to me they have a chunk of power in the Imperium, just one that seems to be overlooked.

They have two powers established in canon...

1) to dissolve the Imperium
2) to confirm a new emperor (and by extension, refuse to confirm candidates that will be bad for the Imperium...)

The implications of #2 include, essentially, electing a new emperor from the various claimants when no clear choice exists.

In other words, the Moot really is nothing more to the 3I than the College of Cardinals is to the Catholic Church - vital when needed, but needed only when the leader dies, abdicates, or goes nutters. The rest of the time, it's members have other duties, mostly obtained as a result of being a member of said body.

 

[rancke]

So, I keep seeing everyone talking about the Emperor, the Dukes and here and there. the MegaCorps, but no one seems to be taking either the Senate or the Moot into account. Why not?

As for the senate, there's absolutely no information about what senate we're talking about. My own take is that the Duchy of Regina has an advisory body comprised of all Imperial nobles associated with the duchy plus representatives from each member world. But that's just my guess, which is no better than anybody else's.

In the adventure "A Festive Occasion" that I wrote for the Mongoose Living Traveller campaign last year, I mentioned a senate for the entire Spinward Marches, but it's not a very active one:

• The Spinward Marches' Senate is an advisory body comprised of all Imperial peers associated with the Marches. It can be summoned at will by the Emperor to advise him on matters of local importance. In addition, once a decade it assembles on Mora, the sector capital, to discuss matters of mutual interest and to compose a formal document known as the State of the Marches Report for the Emperor. Considerable politicking and many hours of committee meetings and plenary sessions during the daytime goes into deciding just what that report does and does not say. [A Festive Occasion, p. 6]​

I can see that the Senate must not be all that important, after all Senators can get locked up on the Gash (I am pretty sure that is the prison barge, but too lazy to get up and check) without so much as a peep from the media (TNS) or anyone other than their family for that matter. So perhaps we can skip the Senate, which we never really hear of again as it is.

The imprisonment is clandestine (and presumably illegal), and I don't think the very scanty information given says anything about how big a peep the media gave when it happened (which was three years prior to the start of the plot seed).

But the Moot, well, that has been around since Clean founded the Third Imperium, so what do they do there? I always thought they were the source of Law. The Emperor rules by Proclamation, Decree, Edict, and Warrant, none of these actually are law, code or statute. For those I figured that was what the Moot did, that and of course confirming Citizen So and So as Deputy Minister of Commerce, setting and approving the Budgets of the Ministries and Military and such.

I don't think we have much information about what the Emperor uses the Moot for. One possibility is that they keep busy working out proposals for laws and urging the Emperor to adopt them. Another possibility is that the Rmperor keeps them as idle as he can. After all, the English Parliament started as an assembly of nobles so the the King could tell them his wishes, but eventually it turned out the other way around. The Emperor knows history, so perhaps he's not happy about letting the Moot think too much for itself.

So, how come no one is talking about what they do? Seems to me they have a chunk of power in the Imperium, just one that seems to be overlooked.

Personally I don't talk much about them because I don't think muxch about them. I've always concentrated more on the powers and actions of frontier dukes far, far from Capital (I imagine dukes near Capital have considerably less freedom of action).

In the back of my brain I sort of lump the Moot together with the rest of the Imperial bureaucracy on Capital. Were I ever to write an adventure set at the Emperor's Court I might give the Moot a lot more thought.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

The story so far...

So, what I've gotten from all this so far.

1. The Emperor rules by proclamation.

2. The Moot has only 2 functions. To confirm a new Emperor, and to dissolve the Imperium.

3. Aside from sector dukes, The Imperial nobility really has little power, and little responsibility other than to see that member worlds enforce those few Imperial laws, and to collect taxes. And sector Dukes have the added annoyance of running the sectors Imperial Navy as well.

I think that covers it.

~Rich

 

[Cryton]

Need to restate.

Point one needs to be clarified.

!. The Emperor rules by proclamation, but usually doesn't.

There. much clearer.

 

[rancke]

3. Aside from sector dukes, The Imperial nobility really has little power, and little responsibility other than to see that member worlds enforce those few Imperial laws, and to collect taxes. And sector Dukes have the added annoyance of running the sectors Imperial Navy as well.

Aside from subsector dukes...

[There really is too little information about the Imperial system in early CT material to say much about how it works, so I'm abandoning the restriction of only going by what it says.]

The Imperial Nobility is not just one homogenous group. The one trait they all have in common, that of having a seat in the Imperial Moot, they don't actually all have in common -- younger children of peers don't sit on the Moot (Nor do heirs, but they will eventually). High nobles have built-in duties -- dukes are a cross between Imperial governors and pocket emperors (in one sense every duchy is an empire of its member worlds). Lesser high nobles act (I believe) like a sort ombudsmen. They step in when the normal Imperial bureaucracy is unable to cope either from deliberate abuse or inadequacy.

But that leaves all the honor nobles and the younger children of nobles. I think the Imperial nobility functions as a labor pool. Some enter the Imperial bureaucracy; some enter the Imperial services. According to GT:Nobles, the top levels of Imperial jobs require a minimum noble rank. At the lower levels, competent commoners can be given baronetcies or lifetime peerages, but for the jobs that require higher noble titles, existing nobles are chosen almost every time.

An old aphorism (that I made up myself) says that "The oldest child enters the Bureaucracy; the second child enters the Navy; the third child enters the Army; and the fourth child enters the Scouts". Of course, this is not always true; some go into civilian life as corporate and (especially) megacorporate managers; a few become academics, and some just kick back and enjoy their wealth and priviledges.

So other than high nobles there isn't much power invested in noble status in itself, but noble status opens the door for acquiring positions of power. Really competent commoners can work their way into powerful jobs (and the lower ranks of the nobility), but they have to work twice as hard to get there in twice the time it takes nobles.

Another thing is positions in planetary governments. In theory, the Imperial nobility are separate from planetary government; in practice, planetary rulers, especially hereditary ones, tend to acquire Imperial noble titles. Also, an Imperial noble title carries a lot of prestige, so an honor noble is in a good position to get ahead in planetary politics.

And that's my view.

EDIT: If anyone can point out any part of the above (apart from the bit I've already stipulated) that directly contradicts anything in CT (or any other part of Canon, for that matter), please do so. That's contradict, not 'can be interpreted differently' or 'doesn't say anything at all about it'.


Hans

PS. A couple more aphorisms:

* "If commoners are as good as nobles, how come they have to work twice as hard just to stay even?"

* To get ahead in the Imperial Navy you have to be either good or noble.​

 

[aramis]

Aside from subsector dukes...

[There really is too little information about the Imperial system in early CT material to say much about how it works, so I'm abandoning the restriction of only going by what it says.]

The Imperial Nobility is not just one homogenous group. The one trait they all have in common, that of having a seat in the Imperial Moot, they don't actually all have in common -- younger children of peers don't sit on the Moot (Nor do heirs, but they will eventually). High nobles have built-in duties -- dukes are a cross between Imperial governors and pocket emperors (in one sense every duchy is an empire of its member worlds). Lesser high nobles act (I believe) like a sort ombudsmen. They step in when the normal Imperial bureaucracy is unable to cope either from deliberate abuse or inadequacy.

But that leaves all the honor nobles and the younger children of nobles. I think the Imperial nobility functions as a labor pool. Some enter the Imperial bureaucracy; some enter the Imperial services. According to GT:Nobles, the top levels of Imperial jobs require a minimum noble rank. At the lower levels, competent commoners can be given baronetcies or lifetime peerages, but for the jobs that require higher noble titles, existing nobles are chosen almost every time.

An old aphorism (that I made up myself) says that "The oldest child enters the Bureaucracy; the second child enters the Navy; the third child enters the Army; and the fourth child enters the Scouts". Of course, this is not always true; some go into civilian life as corporate and (especially) megacorporate managers; a few become academics, and some just kick back and enjoy their wealth and priviledges.

So other than high nobles there isn't much power invested in noble status in itself, but noble status opens the door for acquiring positions of power. Really competent commoners can work their way into powerful jobs (and the lower ranks of the nobility), but they have to work twice as hard to get there in twice the time it takes nobles.

Another thing is positions in planetary governments. In theory, the Imperial nobility are separate from planetary government; in practice, planetary rulers, especially hereditary ones, tend to acquire Imperial noble titles. Also, an Imperial noble title carries a lot of prestige, so an honor noble is in a good position to get ahead in planetary politics.

And that's my view.


Hans

It's all very GTish, and not at all CTish, Hans... It's one of those cases where GT seems to have ignored what's actually in CT when claiming to preserve it...

There is very little in CT that says Subsector dukes have much power.

Also of import: Within the 2 Library Data supplements, The moot is only mentioned in the Emperor's list, and the mention of a senate was that of the Sylean Federation...

In fact, running a search, it's not until MT that the moot was defined as being all of the peers... same source also is the introduction of the requirement for nobles in high-ranked offices.

I'm realizing that much of what I thought was in CT really isn't - and GT owes way more to MT than CT.

 

[Dragoner]

For a laugh, look at what S4 says: "Nobles: lndividuals of the upper classes who perform little consistent function, but often have large amounts of ready money."

 

[rancke]

It's all very GTish, and not at all CTish, Hans... It's one of those cases where GT seems to have ignored what's actually in CT when claiming to preserve it...

Say rather that there is really very little information in CT at all, so there's not really any such thing as CTish. Rather, there's a whole hazy mish-mash of possible extrapolations from CT. As I said a couple of posts back, I believe my version is compatible with all existing canon except for one line that IMO contains a mistake.

Well... that's not completely true; some of what GT says about dukes and their relationship with the Imperial bureaucracy seems to me to apply much more easily to dukes living relatively close to Capital (and thus close supervision) than to dukes living on the frontiers.

Perhaps you can tell me where GT ignores what's actually in CT?

There is very little in CT that says Subsector dukes have much power.

Apart from the CT line about subsector dukes having a free hand in governing and only being subject to broad guidelines from their superiors, you mean? There's very little in CT that says anything about subsector dukes.

Also of import: Within the 2 Library Data supplements, The moot is only mentioned in the Emperor's list, and the mention of a senate was that of the Sylean Federation...

Somehow I doubt that the noble who was banged up on the Gaesh was a member of the Sylean Federation Senate.

In fact, running a search, it's not until MT that the moot was defined as being all of the peers... same source also is the introduction of the requirement for nobles in high-ranked offices.

Yes, there's actually not a lot of detailed information about nobles in CT. But MT is canon too. Not that there's all that many details in MT either.

I'm realizing that much of what I thought was in CT really isn't - and GT owes way more to MT than CT.

Yes, there's actually not a lot of information about nobles in CT. But MT is canon too. Not that there's all that many details in MT either.


Hans

 

[aramis]

MT's canonicity is off topic in this thread. As is T4's, TNE's and T20's.