IN & IM ranks and ratings insigns...

[aramis]

I have never liked the "UH/LH" distinction of the late 80's onward USN. I've never liked the similar distinction in a few nato allies. It's confusing, and a poor way to designate ranks, IMO. Your lower 3rd proposal rings even more broken.

Canon says that there are 3 grades of admiral, in a literal text sense. CG has always been IMPERIAL CENTRIC; all non imperial careers are by adjustment from them (most minors, plus pre AM series), or replacement of them (AM series). Therefore, all references to other ranks of admiral must be alternate titles for the same grades. (Something for which the US Military is notorious on the enlisted level.)

You are arguing that they are real subgrades of the O8, IE:
O8.0 = Rear
O8.3 = Vice
O8.6 = Fleet
this still means any Rear who does somehting special skips straight to O9. And that something special need not be, of need, job related.

That is far less likely than the survival of solomani alternate titles, and/or inconsistant decision making by the GDW staff, and/or publishing the SMC and/or 5FW with US ranks for the primarily US audience's understanding.

Canon (MT PH, pg 83) Mentions Norris negotiating with the Zhodani. This doesn NOT prove he's sector duke. It proves he's got treaty authority. That he doesn't/can't give orders to Santanocheev clearly indicates he's NOT the sector duke, Or that Santanocheev is making a careful and powerful statement that the nobility needs to keep their mitss out of the war.

We actually know little about santanocheev, other than he's got at least (8-1)*4-3 years in service by 1105:25 years minimum, in the 7th term, puting him as a vet of the 4FW. We know he commands an intell HQ. (If it were not an HQ, central command, or similar major grouping, it would be commanded by a field grade officer, not a flag.) We know he plays power politics with the much younger norris (4 terms, according to MT sources, or 16 years, plus later service as a noble... at 16 years by 1098, he goes into service just after the 4FW.) We know Norris grabs a warrant from a red-zoned world, and relieves santanocheev.

We know that Regina is capital for two subsectors, and is a hub of operations.

We know that the supporting depot for the marches is in another sector. (and thus, the Personell and Training Center is in Deneb.) Depot may not be the official HQ, but it is the central trianing facility and maintenance facility for the IN in 4 sectors (2 of which amount to 2 subsectors apiece). While this is not clear eveidence of a domain HQ, it is clear evidence of a domain-wide personell system, and probably also maintenance. It may not be an operational command, but it is clearly the logistical command center for the domain's navy.

Regina holds a forward command presence for several services: Both the IN (and hence IM) and IISS have extensive bases in system.

Santanocheeve, commanding the 5FW, gets to ignore Norris... so he obviously is the sector authority for the IN, by hook, crook, or ⌧. Norris is obviously not the Sector duke, or santanocheev could not have ignored him so cleanly. Likewise, if the sector duke had requested more forces prewar, they would likely have been drawn from other places in the marches. Instead Norris asks, and is IGNORED... and can't draw them from elsewhere in the sector.
Norris is clearly NOT the sector duke. Even if Regina is the sector captial (which it is not in 1105, as there is none).

Mora: Mora is far from all the action. It's not part of the spinward main, nor is it near the center of the imperial part fo the sector. (Regina is often closer routewise for XMails...) D3elphine is clearly a powerful presence, but if she was sector duchess, Norris would have had to answer to her, and she'd have had more chance of becoming Archduchess. No, I think that the 1111 date for it being captial is probably wrong; The earliest reference I've sen is 1116, after Norris is Archduke, and making the secotr capital Mora makes sense defensively. (MT maps are Ca 1116 OR LATER). All the other maps I've laid hand to are 1105 (Delux CT (1105), Starter CT, Sup3 10pr), or during the war (1107). All lack a defined sector capital.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
I have never liked the "UH/LH" distinction of the late 80's onward USN. I've never liked the similar distinction in a few nato allies. It's confusing, and a poor way to designate ranks, IMO. Your lower 3rd proposal rings even more broken.

Oh, I'd much prefer it if rear and vice admiral were substantive ranks (and I'd like to add an 'Admiral' for good measure (mostly single system commands)), but what of it? The fact that you don't like it and I don't much care for it doesn't mean that it's not possible. Historical examples prove that.

Canon says that there are 3 grades of admiral, in a literal text sense.

Canon also says that there are only six officer ranks. Just look at the basic rules.

CG has always been IMPERIAL CENTRIC; all non imperial careers are by adjustment from them (most minors, plus pre AM series), or replacement of them (AM series). Therefore, all references to other ranks of admiral must be alternate titles for the same grades.

I disagree, but if you insist (or, better yet, TPTB says that such is the case) then option two above comes into play.

You are arguing that they are real subgrades of the O8, IE:
O8.0 = Rear
O8.3 = Vice
O8.6 = Fleet
this still means any Rear who does something special skips straight to O9. And that something special need not be, of need, job related.

Well, not any rear admiral, but I get what you mean. Indeed, that goes without saying, since Santanocheev manages to skip straight from being a lowly rear admiral to being sector admiral in less than a year. You're still missing my point: Such a leap will not take place automatically. It requires the intervention of someone with powerful mojo.

Besides, even if rear and vice admiral really were alternative versions of Fleet and Sector Admiral (a notion that flies in the face of the examples we have of what rear and vice admirals actually do for a living, but I've already pointed that out to you ad nauseam), the Chief of Naval Intelligence for a single subsector (you who enjoy fine distinctions will doubtless appreciate the fact that Santanocheev is not CinC/Naval Intelligence/Spinward Marches?) is still a far-down-the list slot which would mean that Santanocheev was a very junior Fleet Admiral. Which brings us right back to my point.

Canon (MT PH, pg 83) Mentions Norris negotiating with the Zhodani. This doesn NOT prove he's sector duke. It proves he's got treaty authority.

Right. That warrant thingy.

That he doesn't/can't give orders to Santanocheev clearly indicates he's NOT the sector duke,

Exactly what I've been saying all along.

We actually know little about Santanocheev, other than he's got at least (8-1)*4-3 years in service by 1105:25 years minimum, in the 7th term, puting him as a vet of the 4FW.

We don't even know that. I absolutely refuse to accept that NPCs has to be the product of the PC generation system. It's not only ridiculous, it is an extremely bad idea and leads to scores of silly results, such a Imperial nobles serving as Marine privates and customs inspectors.

Not that his age really matters AFAICS.

We know he commands an intell HQ. (If it were not an HQ, central command, or similar major grouping, it would be commanded by a field grade officer, not a flag.)

Sure. Subsectors usually have a fleet stationed in them. CinC/Intelligence/Regina is presumably the IN support for the fleet stationed in the Regina subsector. (If he was attached to the fleet he would be CinC/Intelligence/<Fleet>).

We know he plays power politics with the much younger norris (4 terms, according to MT sources, or 16 years, plus later service as a noble... at 16 years by 1098, he goes into service just after the 4FW.)

Norris is born in 1063 [RS:76], but I don't see what his age has to do with anything.

We know Norris grabs a warrant from a red-zoned world, and relieves santanocheev.

We know that Regina is capital for two subsectors, and is a hub of operations.

We know that the supporting depot for the marches is in another sector. (and thus, the Personell and Training Center is in Deneb.)

And how do we know that? AFAIK depots are places where lots and lots of spare ships are stored and (in some cases) new ship classes are developed, but I've never heard any suggestions that they were personnel centers. Since depots are usually placed in out-of-the-way systems it sound unlikely on the face of it.

Even if depots were personnel centers here is nothing that says that the Spinward Marches cannot make do with alternate solutions. The Marches certainly has its own Fleet College (in Macene).

Depot may not be the official HQ, but it is the central trianing facility and maintenance facility for the IN in 4 sectors (2 of which amount to 2 subsectors apiece).

Could you please substantiate that claim with a few quotes?

While this is not clear evidence of a domain HQ, it is clear evidence of a domain-wide personel system, and probably also maintenance.

I'd like to see that evidence, especially in the light of a clear statement about how the IN does not include the domain as a level of its organisation (quoted in a previous post).

Regina holds a forward command presence for several services: Both the IN (and hence IM) and IISS have extensive bases in system.

There are other naval bases in the Marches. Mora has one too.

Santanocheev, commanding the 5FW, gets to ignore Norris... so he obviously is the sector authority for the IN, by hook, crook, or ⌧. Norris is obviously not the Sector duke, or Santanocheev could not have ignored him so cleanly. Likewise, if the sector duke had requested more forces prewar, they would likely have been drawn from other places in the marches. Instead Norris asks, and is IGNORED... and can't draw them from elsewhere in the sector.
Norris is clearly NOT the sector duke.

All very true.

Even if Regina is the sector captial (which it is not in 1105, as there is none).

The fact that no sector capital is mentioned in Sup 3 does not prove that there is no sector capital. All it proves is that no sector capital is mentioned in Sup 3.

Mora: Mora is far from all the action.

Mora is the capital of the most powerful subsector in the Marches. It is also most likely the oldest duchy in the Marches (since it was the 'Gateway to the Marches' it is likely that it has served as the center for Imperial expansion into the Marches for over a millenium).

It's not part of the spinward main,

Yes it is.

nor is it near the center of the imperial part fo the sector.

Take another look. It is close to Trin, Glisten, Lunion, and Rhylanor, the four next most powerful subsectors (The Duchy of Regina is more powerful than the duchies of Glisten and Rhylanor, but that's because it consists of both Regina and Jewell).

(Regina is often closer routewise for XMails...)

Mora lies on the direct X-boat route from Capital.

Delphine is clearly a powerful presence, but if she was sector duchess, Norris would have had to answer to her,

Until he got his warrant, yes. Which seems to conform perfectly to what we know of the historical events.

...and she'd have had more chance of becoming Archduchess.

More chance, perhaps (I think we know far too little about the power politics of the Marches and of Capital to say that for sure; just how close is Norris' family ties to Strephon, for instance? (They both have the middle name 'Aella'. For all we know they could be brothers-in-law (Note: I do not suggest that they are! Such a relationship would hardly have gone unmentioned.)))

But in any case, a chance is not a certainty. Strephon eidently preferred Norris

(Hey! Waitaminute! In the OTU Strephon didn't appoint anyone archduke. He did in the GTU, so if you believe that information about the GTU applies equally to the OTU prior to 1116, then you can use that as an argument, but you don't, do you? )

No, I think that the 1111 date for it being captial is probably wrong; The earliest reference I've seen is 1116, after Norris is Archduke, and making the sector capital Mora makes sense defensively. (MT maps are Ca 1116 OR LATER). All the other maps I've laid hand to are 1105 (Delux CT (1105), Starter CT, Sup3 10pr), or during the war (1107). All lack a defined sector capital.

The map and, more importantly, the UWP listing in The Spinward Marches Campaign are as of 1111. That's where I get the 1111 reference to Mora being sector capital. It is at least as solid as anything out of Sup. 3.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
The idea of the most senior of the highest ranked officers always taking command...

Something just occurred to me[*]: That's exactly the way that things work in the 5FW boardgame. The senior admiral present in a star system must be in command (Unless the Warrant is involved). It seems to me that if seniority didn't trump position, then those six other sector admirals who outranks Santanocheev wouldn't be able to supercede him anywhere in the Spinward Marches, since he is the one with the position of Sector Admiral for the Spinward Marches whereas they're merely sector admirals with greater seniority.


[*] I probably didn't think of it earlier because I don't consider the 5FW boardgame to be the most reliable source of information about the TU.


Hans

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

I know many people on TML and CotI prefer to keep the GURPS Traveller stuff kind of at 'arms length', but I did notice a paragraph in the new GT:Nobles book that seemed to address at least part of this debate.

In the section on nobles and military command the situation where Norris relieves Santanocheev is used as an example of nobles being able to cause changes outside of the 'normal' channels. Specific to this conversation, GT:Nobles actually states that at the time that he relieved Santanocheev during the 5FW Norris was only Duke of Regina and that Santanocheev was a sector level authority under the mandate of the Sector Duchess (who is not actually named). The explanation is that only his Imperial Warrant gave him the authority to remove Santanocheev.

Whether it will hold up as a 'proof' for part of the argument I do not know, but it does indicate the understanding of the situation according to the authors of the book.

 

[mike wightman]

For "proof" of what depots are and can do, read the entry in the MT:IE page 32

 

[aramis]

Re: Norris appointment as Archduke of Deneb

MegaTraveller Player's Manual, page 83. Inset box, right collumn, bottom. Unknown printing (1st indicated, but 1st print was saddlebound, not perfectbound).
His heorism was not for public consumption, but the emperor noticed; that's usually enough. Patents of nobility named Norris Archduke of Deneb, the ranking noble on the frontier in 1114.

Re GT: I accept GT as an ATU with separate canon; kind of a paarralell universe kind of thing. So, if you play GURPS, there was a definite sector duchess in 1107. I'd say, due to date, it's supportive, but not authoritative. After all, MWM announced it (GT, so many years ago now) as "a non-authoritative ruleset" on the TML.

Re Depots: depots are, accourding to MT, training, personell, logistics, and repair centers for their sectors.

now, for some conjecture in a timeline form (OTU Facts not in italic):
1082-1084: 4FW. Santanocheev an officer with rank. Norris at acadamy.
pre 1098: Regina is Sector Capital
1098: Norris musters out of the IN in order to take over as Duke of Regina. Norris NOT also named as Sector Duke due to having been the spare, not the heir-intended. Post left vacant, Norris slighted. Marches Moot continues to meet at Regina, with Norris Hosting, but a chair elected each moot meeting
1098: Norris negotiates Esalin accord.
1105-ish: Norris starts requesting a force build-up due to conditions his personal agents are finding. Santanocheev makes successful persuasion to prevent them, having assumed the 4FW was a "Full Commitment" by the Zhodani, as well as proof of their lack of political will as a race, rather than a probing excercise to test Viability. Santanocheev's lobbying and arguments persuasive, and supported by his Naval Intell flunkies, many of whom share his views of the Zhodani.
1105: Santanocheev, annoyed by Norris' requests (and sending them to the Emperor) moves to nominate his patron, the Duchess of Mora, as a suitable leader, and pushes this through the Sector moot as a "Motion of Entreaty to His Imperial Majesty".
1106: Strephon recieves the letter, and concurrs. Issues patent. Starts consideration of reinstatement of Domain hierarchy, Appoints four Archdukes over the next decade: Brzrk of Antares, Dulinor of Illellish, Ishiggi of Vland, Norris of Deneb. Only Norris date know to a year. {see note 1}
1106: Norris lobbies delphine with warnings of significant military prep by the Zhodani.
1106-late: Delphine assumes title of Duchess of the marches, and begins to make plans to move the capital to Mora.
1106-late or 1107 early:Santanocheev gets the nod as sector admiral, in part as thanks for his starting the sector ducal elevation, in part becuase of his intell background, and in part as an officer during the 4FW, being a department head of a cruiser.
1107: 5FW begins.
1107: Norris notices Santanocheev not taking the war as seriously as he should; ignoring the full commitment Zhodani can find, and their full political will. Starts to seek a solution. Reads warrant text, then searches records of the IN for any missing warrants... Burns a few bridges, blows a few contacts... has numerous "Leave the Admiraling to the Admirals" encounters with Santanocheev, since regina is a clear forward operation center.
During the war: Norris recovers warrant, Relieves Santanocheev. Santanocheev steps aside with some grace, knowing he can't win against a warrant, and the only way to check the warrant wielder's power is to contact the emperor. He knows that either way, he's out of the war, and sends the querey off to captial. Strephon realizes from the action reports that santanocheev was fighting a losing war, and decides to let Norris have enough rope to hang himself, noting that the one missing blank warrant he knows of is now recovered. If Norris wins, it was valid; if Norris loses the war, Norris will be cashiered in total, and find his way to a prison planet for his "Theft of a Warrant"; either way, the heat is now on Norris, not Strephon nor Santanocheev.
1110: 5FW ends. Norris NOT censured by the emperor.{see note 2}
1111: The capital has been moved to Mora during the war. {see note 3} Delphine takes a "Wait-and-see" on Norris, not being willing to over-extend herself, and knowing that Santanocheev has NOT gotten a response on the warrant, figures it's valid.
1111-1113: Norris cautiously uses the warrant occasionally to get things done, but shows a real knack as a leader amongst the Sector Moot. begins to build stronger ties to the Consulate, as well as formalizing dimplomatic relations.
1114: Seeing the role Norris is in, and with Norris already having gotten away with so much, and been right and successful, Strephon names Norris Archduke of Deneb.{See Note 4} Strephon leaves Delphine as Duchess of the Marches.

note 1: We know that, in 1105, there is only one Archduke: Strephon, Emperor of the Third Imperium of Mankind, Archduke of Sylea. This is in Supplements 8 and 11, Library data, which have the default CT date of 1105, last I checked.
We also know that, by 1116, there are 5 Archdukes: Strephon of Sylea, Dulinor of Illellish, Brzk of Antares, Ishiggii of Vland. MT has a default date of 1116. All are listed as archdukes in the MT Rebellion Sourcebook. Norris is listed as "recently appointed" inthe faction summary, the oters are not. We can surmise, then that the others were apointed before Norris; how much is limited by the lack of Archdukes in 1105.
Note 2: If Norris were censured in any even vaguely public way, it would be noted SOMEWHERE in canon.
Note 3: Actually, we don't know it was moved, but we know the capital is Mora in 1111 to 1116.
Note 4: See quote at top.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
For "proof" of what depots are and can do, read the entry in the MT:IE page 32

You (and Aramis) are right. The description in Rebellion Sourcebook is considerably expanded from that in Fighting Ships (where the depot's main function is said to be the design and testing of prototype ships), but FS does mention personnel and RS doesn't contradict anything (unless you count the fact that the depots' main role isn't even mentioned in RS), it merely shift the emphasis, so I'll go along with that.

It still doesn't prove that the fleets of the Spinward Marches answers to Deneb Depot (nor does a quick browse through the description of depots mention anything about them being naval headquarters; the SM fleets could get their personnel through Deneb depot and still answer to an HQ in the Marches)).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Re: Norris appointment as Archduke of Deneb:
MegaTraveller Player's Manual, page 83. Inset box, right collumn, bottom [snip].
His heorism was not for public consumption, but the emperor noticed; that's usually enough. Patents of nobility named Norris Archduke of Deneb, the ranking noble on the frontier in 1114.

Read the 'referee only' section of IE. The passage you quote is for the players. That's what they think happened. But it is not what did happen.

Re Depots: depots are, accourding to MT, training, personell, logistics, and repair centers for their sectors.

You're right. My mistake.

now, for some conjecture in a timeline form (OTU Facts not in italic):

I'll confine myself to commenting on a couple of the 'facts'.

1106: [...][Strephon] appoints four Archdukes over the next decade: Brzrk of Antares, Dulinor of Illellish, Ishiggi of Vland, Norris of Deneb. Only Norris date know to a year. {see note 1}

[...]

note 1: We know that, in 1105, there is only one Archduke: Strephon, Emperor of the Third Imperium of Mankind, Archduke of Sylea. This is in Supplements 8 and 11, Library data, which have the default CT date of 1105, last I checked.

Absolutely false. P. 7 of LDNZ clearly states that the archdukes exist at the time of writing (1107), they just don't have much real power. They do, however have ceremonial duites. As for Brzrk, read the entries for Soezg and Brzrk in IE.

Note 2: If Norris were censured in any even vaguely public way, it would be noted SOMEWHERE in canon.

As a mutual friend is fond of saying, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". While I don't agree with him in all cases, it is a fact that umptillions of facts that should be freely available aren't and many events that would make the TNS in 'real life' never got mentioned in any canonical source. That's just the way it is when a few score writers has to describe a few tens of thousands of worlds.

That said, I have no problem with the specific assumption you make here, I just don't like to see you call it a fact. It isn't. It's a reasonable assumption.


Hans

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

I did somemore reading last night and found some more about Santanocheev. Again all of the following is according to the writeup in GT: Nobles so, as usual, YMMV.

In one of the sidebars, the book lists the Duchies of the Spinward Marches and paragraph descriptions of the nobles holding those titles and which faction they support (as in Delphine vs. Norris). They are listed as Mora, Lunion, Trin, Rhylanor, Glisten, Regina and Pretoria. The bit about Santanocheev mentioned that he was a protege of Duchess Delphine (Duchess of Mora and Sector Duchess). Santanocheev is also listed as the brother-in-law of Duke Luis of Lunion who is Delphine's second cousin once removed. Certainly enough connections to place him as Sector Admiral ahead of other more senior/qualified individuals.

Someone had mentioned the possiblity of Norris and Strephon being related because they share the middle name of Aella. GT:Nobles explains it by making the tradition among most Imperial nobles to use a given name, their mothers family name and their father's family name. This does make them related by way of the Aella family from which both of their mothers came from. According to GT:Nobles their mothers were distant cousins so Norris is a relative of Strephon's but it is a pretty distant relationship.

 

[aramis]

My copies of Supps 8 & 11 are mising (Stolen, actually)... so i'm working blind there. Mea Culpa.

However, you cited same claiming no domain organizations; if there is an archduke, then the navy answers to him, at least by 1116 (MT) standards.

MT Reb SB, p46
Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian rose to the highest levels of the nobility in the Domain of Ilelish with the approval and support of the Emperor Strephon.

Dulinor is, quite literally, in place by Strephon's hand.
Aboslutely no conjecture there. Only the date is at issue. And on MT IE, Page 11, it's 1104


Strephon restores the power of the archdukes. (MT IE - Refs LD: Strephon) On page 10, is shows Strephon B1049, E1071, D1116

He appoints at least one; one is apparently empty (Marches).

MT claims all 7 domains have archdukes; strephon is sylea's.

I can not find reference to the LD entries which counter the 1114 date given in MT PH. (Was it in Survival Margin, or Regency Sourcebook?) THe reference I have to hand on that score is a timeline in MTJ1's "A concise history of the rebellion", saying it's announced in 1116.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
My copies of Supps 8 & 11 are mising (Stolen, actually)... so I'm working blind there. Mea Culpa.

Until recently you could have read them here on CotI[*], but they've been moved into the '1st Class Citizens of the Imperium' area (something that I'm rather surprised that Marc has allowed). I guess you'll just have to rely on my quotes (My memory is sometimes at fault, I admit, but I don't deliberately misquote)

[*] Or maybe not. The relevant text is in the essay 'Imperial Space' on p. 6-7 and that might not've been entered yet.

However, you cited same claiming no domain organizations;

No, I cited a bit that specifically stated that the IN didn't (as of the time of writing, i.e. 1107) include the domain as a level in its bureaucracy. Other domain organizations were not mentioned (either way; the Scouts, say, could have domain HQs without having to answer to the 'mostly ceremonial' ceremonial archduke).

Let me quote a longer passage:

"Following the Civil War, the emperors were understandably concerned about individuals with power approaching thier own, and moved to lessen the imortance of the archdukes in the Imperial government. [...]

Currently, the domains have little practical significance. The Imperial Navy no longer includes the domains as a level in its bureaucracy. The domains collect no taxes. Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative of the Imperium, or of the sectors[**]. [...]

The archdukes, however, retain some powers. Each archduke has the power to create knights and baronets (subject only to the disapproval of the Emperor). Archdukes maintain their hereditary lands and their incomes. Further, the archdukes serve as surrogates for the Emperor, entertaining and receiving Imperial nobles at functions that the Emperor cannot attend due to distance."

--- Library Data (N-Z), p 6-7

...if there is an archduke, then the navy answers to him, at least by 1116 (MT) standards.

By 1116, yes (Or rather maybe... The chart of Imperial Navy command channels on p. 28 of Rebellion Sourcebook actually notes that the archdukes are often bypassed). You were talking about conditions ten years earlier, in 1106.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />MT Reb SB, p46
Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian rose to the highest levels of the nobility in the Domain of Ilelish with the approval and support of the Emperor Strephon.

Dulinor is, quite literally, in place by Strephon's hand.
Aboslutely no conjecture there. Only the date is at issue. And on MT IE, Page 11, it's 1104</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Strephon made Dulinor Archduke of Ilelish, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't an archduke of Illelish until very shortly before he did so (Presumably Strephon didn't appoint Dulinor until the previous archduke was safely dead, (although he could have)).

Strephon restores the power of the archdukes. (MT IE - Refs LD: Strephon) On page 10, is shows Strephon B1049, E1071, D1116

He restores their power, yes. That doesn't mean they didn't exist prior to that.

He appoints at least one; one is apparently empty (Marches).

He doesn't actually appoint that one, as I've told you several times already.

I can not find reference to the LD entries which counter the 1114 date given in MT PH. (Was it in Survival Margin, or Regency Sourcebook?) THe reference I have to hand on that score is a timeline in MTJ1's "A concise history of the rebellion", saying it's announced in 1116.

Unless my memory plays me false (always a possibility) there is a couple of pages in Imperial Encyclopedia that contains 'Referee Only' information. I'm almost certain it is right after the Library Data. Check there. Meanwhile I'll look through my books when I get home and locate it.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Norris learned about the assassination on or around 328-1116 (MT RS) via imperiallines jump 6 courier through the rift, he than filled in his own appointment (MT IE no date given) and must have back-dated it to 1114 (MT PH).
The rest of the Marches, and Deneb Domain, only learned of the death in 1117 (at Deneb on 54, Regina on 124) via x-boat (MT RS).
Note that, according to Arrival Vengence, Strephon ratified Norris in appointing himself, so it can be argued that he will be/was Archduke from 1114

And by the way, why is Regina shown as the capital of the Marches on all of the MT Imperium maps?

 

[aramis]

Hans: I Checked IE Ref's LD. Not in there in the three copies I have handy. Not in Rebellion sourcebook, either.

Sigg: The one in my PH copies to hand doesn't show it as a sector capital. The color one from the boxed set was stolen, but I, too remember Regina being shown; it was, however, an exact duplicate of the 1105 map in my Deluxe Traveller (CT) box.

The MT Imperial Encyclopaedia (MT IE) has the subsector star for Regina, and the Sector Star for Mora.

The 1120 world list in MTJ3 shows Regina as Cp (subsector Captial) and Mora as Cx (Sector Capital)

So, it's not all the maps.

And, there is a reference elsewhere than Arrival Vengeance referring to the ratification of Norris by Strephon.

 

[mike wightman]

Didn't DGP do an Inteview with the Real Strephon somewhere?
That may have contained a reference, and Survival Margin perhaps - I'll check later.

The maps I refer to are the ones on the inside covers of the books showing all of the sectors of the Imperium.
Regina is shown on all, Mora is only on a couple - again, more details to follow...

 

[aramis]

Sigg: the capitol shown on the RebSB map (inside front cover) is factions in 1120; perhaps the capital shown there is the faction capital, not the various sector capitals.

(I'm fairly positive of this, as many sectors are shown with their capitols as non-capitol dots, rather than capitol stars.)

Mora is therefore, apparently, the sector capitol, with Regina being the Domain capitol. Menaing there probablye are both a Duke of Deneb and an Archduke of Deneb, and they are not even in the same sectors!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Hans: I Checked IE Ref's LD. Not in there in the three copies I have handy. Not in Rebellion sourcebook, either.

"In fact, Norris was never officially appointed by Strephon to be Archduke of the Domain of Deneb. True, he might have done so, if he had lived, but he didn't. Norris used the advance notice he had in learning of Strephon's death to fill in his own appointment." [Imperial Encyclopedia (1st edition, 1987), p. 50, at the top of the left column]

There are (at least) two different kinds of Traveller canon, 'authorial voice' and 'viewpoint writing'. Viewpoint writing is not proof that something is true, it is merely proof that someone in the TU wrote it, for whatever reason. Often we don't distinguish, because the simplest reason that someone writes something is that it is the truth. But when it conflicts with other parts of canon, it becomes suspect. That's why a TNS reporter referring to Regina as the sector capital is not proof that Regina is the sector capital (though it is evidence of it). It could be a writing mistake or a simple typo.

And, there is a reference elsewhere than Arrival Vengeance referring to the ratification of Norris by Strephon.

Yes, Strephon ratified it after the fact, in 112x (whenever it was the Arrival Vengeance visited Usdiki). He didn't make the original appointment.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Mora is therefore, apparently, the sector capitol, with Regina being the Domain capitol. Menaing there probablye are both a Duke of Deneb and an Archduke of Deneb, and they are not even in the same sectors!

That's actually the way I explain (away) why Regina is shown a capital on that map. I've always been of the opinion that the subsector capital of a sector duke would automatically also be the sector capital. Otherwise the sector duke would have to commute to the sector capital, which could be in the other end of the sector. Similarly the subsector capital of an archduke would automatically also be domain capital. Of course, with political setups there always the chance of an atypical solutions, but in most cases it would be so. So when Norris bacame archduke, his subsector capital - Regina - became domain capital de jure. However, as soon as he could, Norris transferred the domain capital to Mora (in fact creating one of those exceptions I mention above).

The map you refer to would have to apply to a date between those two events, of course.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Norris learned about the assassination on or around 328-1116 (MT RS) via imperiallines jump 6 courier through the rift, he than filled in his own appointment (MT IE no date given) and must have back-dated it to 1114 (MT PH).

The rest of the Marches, and Deneb Domain, only learned of the death in 1117 (at Deneb on 54, Regina on 124) via x-boat (MT RS).

Yep, that's the story. Unfortunately it doesn't really make sense, unless you believe that all the crews on jump-5 and jump-6 freighters and liners working between Capital and the Marches had both the motive and the discretion to keep Strephon's death a secret.

And that's just for the unorganized, haphazard civilian side (apparently the news organizations of many dozens of high-population worlds cannot figure out how to make a small private jump-6 courier service from Capital economically sound and no company in the Spinward Marches feels that timely news from elsewhere in the Imperium might occasionally be worthwhile). We know for a fact that the IN has jump-6 couriers, so an unspecified number of IN admirals would get the news at that speed. And if you believe, as I do, that the reason why the X-boats are still only jump-4 is that the Imperial bureaucracy switched to using navy couriers to convey reports and orders, then every subsector capital in the Marches received the news just as fast.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I suspect the archdukes maintain a J6 straight-route... using calibration points. THe extra two-to-six weeks notice for even Vland or Dingir can be powerful. The extra two to three months for the rift-crossing with in-domain straight route is quite a lead!

By not having to wind around, but using the straightest possible routes, one saves at least one, usually 2-3 jumps per sector, and guarantees refined fuel. It's worthy, espcially since it can be done with 200 ton hulls which can externally appear to be Type A, A2, or similar designs.

Note: Under MT, it's doable with 100 Td ships, and also under TNE; CT and T20, due to the 20 ton bridge, do not permit a J6 100 Td:
20 Td Bridge
60Td JFuel
7Td J6 Drive
7Td Model 6
6Td PP 6
4Td PPFuel
======
104 tons!

The numbers are much better under MT, becuase the JFuel is 35 Td, AND the bridge is replaced by a much smaller size of control panels.

TNE the bridge WS requirement (1Elec, 1 Pilot, 1 Nav, 1 Engr) are 4 tons, and the non-bridge WS add another 3-4 tons...

T4, while lacking the bridge issue, still has the fuel requirements fairly high.

Now, the CT 200 Td is doable:
J6 200 Td:
20 Td Bridge
120Td JFuel
14Td J6 Drive
7Td Model 6
12Td PP 6
4 M1 Drive
8Td PPFuel
======
185 tons!

Such small (and potentially only 2 man crew: Pilot and Engr) J6 couriers could make a CP run, say, J2, and top off from a 200 Td J2 1G tender.

 

[mike wightman]

I like the 200t model, you could disguise them as free/far traders and add them to Imperiallines covert shipping registry

And speaking of IL, they are owned by the Imperial family and provide a secret courier service for the Imperial Government (not the Navy).
Why do the politicians want info faster than even the IN jump 6 courier network? Remember the 600's