IN & IM ranks and ratings insigns...

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Ok, the ranks from canon-rules-tables from HG2 (I know, you don't buy them as canon. Hans) put three ranks of admiral:
O7 Fleet Admiral
O8 Sector Admiral
O9 Grand Admiral

You mean O8, O9, and O10, right?

Anyway, I certainly buy the rules as canon. I consider them to be evidence of what is possible. But they're not the only canon. And a set of rules that is supposed to cover all navies in Charted Space is not, IMO, the best canon about any specific navy in Charted Space. What is abundantly clear is that we have quite a few references to rear and vice admirals in the Imperial Navy.

Anyway, If we assume there is in fact a duke of the marches, who is separate from the Duke of Regina/Mora,

Why should we assume that? We have canonical statements to the effect that Regina is the sector capital. We have canonical statements to the effect that Mora is the sector capital. We have canonical statements to the effect that Delphine is the sector duchess. So much is fact. We also have canonical records of events that IMO makes it sound unlikely that Norris is the sector duke; that, however, is admittedly more a matter of interpretation and opinion. What we don't have is any suggestion of a mention of any Duke of the Spinward Marches.

...that is one of the "Right People", as are the grand admirals of the various departments. Likewise, there is at least one, maybe more, grand admiral at Domain HQ (Remember, the domains are stated to have been retained in naval use, even tho Strephon finally filled some besides Core...

On the contrary: The domains were not retained as an administrative level of the Imperial Navy and the Domain of Deneb never got an archduke, so there's no real reason to believe that it ever got a domain capital.

Now, such a promotion is only one rank...

I see that I haven't made myself clear.

Fact: The Imperial Navy has rear and vice admirals.

Deduction: These can either be substantive ranks or they can be subdivisions of O8, Fleet Admiral. If they are substantive ranks, then they are O8 Rear Admiral and O9 Vice Admiral, making Fleet Admiral either O10 or O11 (depending on whether or not you assume an O10 (just plain) Admiral or not. That makes Sector Admiral O11 or O12, at minimum of three ranks above Rear Admiral. If they are not substantive ranks, then they are subdivisions of Fleet Admiral, making Rear Admiral equal to Fleet Admiral (Lower 3rd) and Vice Admiral to Fleet Admiral (Middle 3rd), leaving the title of 'Fleet Admiral' for Fleet Admirals (Upper 3rd). In that case Sector admiral is still three levels above Rear Admiral.

(Note that the Royal Navy once distinguished between captains of more and less than three years' seniority and that the USN either do or once did split Commodores into upper and lower half, so I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air.)

Can we plausibility check that in any way? Yes. We can look at examples we have of rear and vice admirals and see what kind of jobs they perform:

Elphinstone, Vice Admiral, CO/203rd BatRon+several CruRons, 1109 [JTAS16]
Brian Gou, Rear Admiral, OC/Inactive Ship Facility/Trin, 1123 [AV]
Petroklev, Vice Admiral, OC/Jone Naval Base 1100 [BtC]
Frederick Santanocheev, Rear Admiral, CINC/Naval Int./Regina Subsector 1105 [FFW]
Thurougood, Vice Admiral, OC(?)/Esalin 1119 [C41*]
Vrin Tildaalin, Vice Admiral, CinC/Regina Fleet 1108? [BtC]

I don't know about you, but to me that sound like Fleet Admirals (or, if you prefer, Fleet Admirals (Upper 3rd)) command full fleets and that vice and rear admirals command squadrons, bases, and departments. In other words, a rear admiral is junior to a vice admiral who is jumior to a (full) Fleet Admiral who is junior to a Sector Admiral.

...and obtaining a command slot. NOT a major promotion... no matter how junior an admiral he'd been.

But that's not the point I've been trying to make at all. I'm saying that he can't have advanced from rear admiral (whatever that may be) to sector admiral in two years by natural succession. That someone had to actively promote him over the heads of more senior admirals.

There must be scores of vice and full admirals in the Marches in 1105, all of them senior to Santanocheev. It passes belief that they should all have left the Marches or retired in those two years.

Now, I don't think that giving the sector dukes the power to brevet sector admirals is a good idea (even if it is only in emergencies), but I'm saying that it is at least possible, and that if anyone local has that power, it must be the sector duke. Sure, natural succession is a much more plausible setup, but I submit that the evidence precludes that.

Here's a case where the rules canon provides a clear dichotomy: ranks linked to command level... so a non-commanding Fleet Admiral would probably be a fleet or subsector command staff admiral, like, say intelligence for Regina's nummbered fleets and/or base; the base is probably also commanded by a fleet admiral, as are each of the fleets.

Sure, but it would be fairly junior fleet admirals who ran departments and commanded bases, the sort of fleet admirals you'd call 'rear admiral' and 'vice admiral' to distinguish them from the kind of fairly senior fleet admirals who ran fleets.

Canon also says that Norris was recalled from Naval service shortly before the 5FW... DUe to both the Duke and the Heir being killed. Norris was the Spare, not the heir.

Yes. Norris retired from the IN in 1098 having attained the rank of commander. His rank as admiral during the 5FW is presumably ex officio.

Working admirals refusing promotion: several in the US Navy have done so, some explicitly saying no thank you, and a couple by threatening to retire if promoted. While I don't recall specifics for either US or UK individuals, I've read that at least two brittish admirals refused promotions that would have moved them from fleet to HQ.

Sure, but every one of several dozen admirals? Besides, if there is no one around to promote Santanocheev out of his zone then there is no one to refuse a promotion from. When the former sector admiral died the next senior admiral would willy-nilly succeed to the post.

Id' say that, in all probability, there was no Duke of the Marches until Norris pulled the warrant... and made himself such, setting the stage for the later self-promotion to archduke.

I think it is extremely unlikely that the Marches wouldn't have a sector capital at all after all this time.

There's no suggestion that Norris used the warrant to change his civil status. The whole point of the warrants is that they go outside the normal setup.

The Sector Capital then being a matter of where the NAVY says it's sector HQ is...

Sector capital is a civilian administration center.

Likewise, Regina is also pretty evidently one of the major IISS centers... so as a capital, it's got EVERYTHING.

Except a sector duke.

If Norris had been Sector Duke, he could probably have cashiered Santanocheev, rather than simply relieved him, during the war.

The point is that he evidently could do neither. Otherwise he wouldn't have needed to run the huge risk he ran when he went to Algine to fetch his warrant.

Also, MTIE says (on pg. 15) that the Dukes are titled as Duke of (Name of subsector or sector). Hence, Neither Norris nor Delphine are the sector Duchy holder.

Does not follow. Just because some sector dukes are named after their sector (which, incidentally, I admit is news to me) it doesn't follow that all sector dukes are. Qiunn of Tobia is specifically said to be sector duke of the Trojan Reach, but he is still called the Duke of Tobia. Or it could be a courtesey title so that Delphine is BOTH Duchess of Mora and Duchess of the Spinward Marches.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It occurs to me that there is one aspect of the whole sector capital thing that I have failed to mention.

Just what do you people think is involved in moving a sector capital? Personally I think it is a HUGE undertaking with hundreds of government departments and many thousand of bureaucrats involved. It is not, IMO, something that is undertaken lightly (this is also why I don't believe in the interpretation that makes the sector dukedom shift every few decades as one duke's power waxes and anothers wanes).

If Mora is the sector capital in 1111 (and we are told that it is), then I believe that that is an argument in itself to believe that it already was sector capital in 1107. And, yes, the logic goes both ways and if Regina was the sector capital in 1107, then it probably was the sector capital in 1111 too, and in 1117 still.

So I want a resolution that makes Mora the sector capital from long before 1107 to the present, with no Regina sojourn in between. Or Regina the sector capital from long before 1107 to now, with no Mora mentioned at all (Only, I think the first option is more plausible). What I really, really don't like is Regina as the sector capital in 1107, Mora in 1111, Regina in 1114, and then back to Mora in 1117.

Hans

 

[TheEngineer]

Well, we got some experience in moving capitals here in Germany (Bonn - Berlin).
It was - all in all - just politics with a slight flavor of "need for restauration". It had nothing to do with "sense" or an economical way of thinking.
In an environment of concentrated powers the decision to do such a thing could come be more easily.
So lets move...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Two suggestions:

1. Rear and Vice Admirals are simply alternative names for Fleet and Sector Admirals.

2. Perhaps Regina and Mora are *both* the capital (ie each controls different functions of government, like South Africa, which divides its governmental power between Bloemfontein (judiciary), Cape Town (legislative), and Pretoria (administrative)).

 

[vermeylenhans]

Or The Netherland where the capital is Amsterdam but the seat of government is Den Haag...

 

[aramis]

In any case, by 1111, the capital is Mora.
In 1107 it was Regina.

Sector Dukes are known as Duke of (Sector Name) (MT IE, page 15). That one sector duke is spelled out differently can be seen as an EXPLICIT exemption.

Reasons for moving the capital are self-evident: Regina saw front-line action. (Not much, but it did). Mora is also far better for a domain HQ.

By 1116, Norris is Archduke (MTPH pg 83, sidebar. He's made archduke by leters patent in 1114) of Deneb, and becomes the ranking nobe in the region. (Hmm. missed that before...) Which clearly implies that he wasn't the ranking noble in the region before then; we know there was no archduke, so was the ranking duke of the region the Duke of The Marches or the Duke of Deneb? This we don't have...

as to officer ranks: yes, I got the numbers off by 1 grade.. it was 1 am local time.

Using corresponding US ranks for the same grades to get rear and vice admiral:
o7 Commodore
O8 Fleet Adm, possibly also Rear Adm
O9 Sector Adm, Possibly also Vice Adm
O10 Grand Adm

Under this method of reading it (since neither HG nor MT list rear nor vice admirals at all) as parallel titles, going from rear to sector is still only 1 rank. It is the only solution which seems to fit.

Not the three plus Hans is claiming.

Yes, a major jump in positional authority.

It is highly probable that Norris and Santanocheev had "Prior history".

Another issue: Sup 3, 10th printing, does not list either as sector capital. In fact, it lists no sector capital.

Sooo.. we can probably assume the regina hub is likely autonomous from "local noble interference", and santanocheev gets his bump from Domain HQ. (Probably for merit... and that on the backs of subordinates). It may even be a possibility that (sice 5Fw's board doesn't cover the whole of the marches) there were two or more secotr admirals... Not a happy thoguht, but a significant possibility.

The Duchy of Regina clearly includes the neighboring Jewell SS, as it has no SS Capital, and answers "to the duke at Regina." (SS3, 10thPrtg, Pg12) Note that it says the "duke at Regina". interesting word choice.

the Esalin accord is promulgated in 1098 (same source), which is when Norris is recalled to be Duke. (DGP source). He's mentioned as having negotiated with the Zhodani before the 5FW... perhaps he brokered that accord?

I'm thinking, mself, that the marches LACK a sector duke and sector capital until Norris appoints Delphine to the post... Witha resident archduke, it may be moot anyway (pun intentional).

The sector moot could operate without a duke in charge of it; later democratic reforms (TNE Sources) tend to imply that the marches were already more deomcratic than other places. Such a situation leaves the Subsector Dukes with LOADS of power.

 

[The Oz]

I am flabbergasted....

I've been playing TRAVELLER since it first came out in 1977. I bought HG when it first came out in 1979. In all that time, I never noticed that the character generation system had officer ranks that went straight from Commodore to Fleet Admiral, skipping the ranks of Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral.

Silly me.....

 

[aramis]

Amazing... isn't it? HG predates and MT postdates SMC, but SMC uses different ranks (Apparently US/Commonwealth) from either.

And CT pre-Bk4/5/6/7 just had Commodore (R5) and Admiral (R6) for naval flag ranks.

I just noticed, 17 years after acquiring MT, that norris was made archduke in 1114, not 1117.

Lots of little details hidden in there. Like no Sector Capitol listed in Sup 3, but Sup 10 has an imperial Sector Capitol (Dingir).

Y'see, I'm thinking maybe Santanocheev basically provokes the Zho, and tries to undo the goodwill Norris had built, so Norris basically was arguing with Santanocheev from the get go, but Norris being only a subsector duke had no direct authority over the Sector Admiral in Charge.

By the way, Mr. Ranke: In naval hierarchy of command, it is customary to work command down four separate internal sets.
In US use,
first you work down positionals CO, 1O, XO, Ops, sometimes CEngr
Then you work down the Line officers by rank until you hit the last ensign of the Line. (Shipdrivers and Deck Supervisiory Officers)
Then you work down the Restricted Line Officers, by rank, until the last ensign of the Restricted Line. (Engineers and Flight)
Then you work down the remaining staff officers. (All other officers.)

There have been cases of ships witha Commander as CO having a Captain-rank doctor; The Ensign in engineering takes command of the ship before the Doc gets a chance.

The same is true within even the admirality. The Surgeon-General of the navy can NOT become commandant of the navy. Nor can the Engineering Branch Admiral-in-charge... as a line officer of lesser rank would be promoted to fill the slot right over them.

Intell officers are often Line, but some are restricted line. It depends upon when and how trained, and other career factors.

It is apparent that Santanocheev is a line officer; perhaps an intell officer with command training, or perhaps as you put forth, a shipdriver overseeing the intel office... but in any case, he's a line officer, if he becomes the commandant of the marches. There could be a medical branch Grand admiral, and a commodore of the Line branch would take command of the sector first.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Well, we got some experience in moving capitals here in Germany (Bonn - Berlin).

I'm not saying it would never happen. I'm saying it's something that wouldn't happen often. How often have you moved capitals in Germany? The last time we did it in Denmark was 800 years ago.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Two suggestions:

1. Rear and Vice Admirals are simply alternative names for Fleet and Sector Admirals.

Vice Admiral Elphinstone, CO/203rd BatRon+several CruRons, 1109 [JTAS16]
Vice Admiral Petroklev, OC/Jone Naval Base 1100 [BtC]
Vice Admiral Thurougood, OC(?)/Esalin 1119 [C41*]
Vice Admiral Vrin Tildaalin, CinC/Regina Fleet 1108? [BtC]

Does this sound like vice admirals are sector admirals? The most important post any one of them holds is admiral of the Regina Fleet (whatever that may be).

(Also, Elphinstone's counter in the 5FW boardgame makes him a one star admiral, but I'm not going to insist that 5FW is all that accurate a source of canon information).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
In any case, by 1111, the capital is Mora.
In 1107 it was Regina.

It's wonderful the way you can assess the canonical evidence and decide on what is true and what isn't without ever having to go through the tedious bother of weighing it against other canonical evidence.

The only evidence you have that Regina was the sector capital in 1107 is two TNS newsbriefs. That's hardly incontrovertible proof. The TNS newsbriefs has been known to contain information that was provably not true (There are, for instance, several newsbriefs that refer to the 100th Fleet as the 193rd).

Sector Dukes are known as Duke of (Sector Name) (MT IE, page 15). That one sector duke is spelled out differently can be seen as an EXPLICIT exemption.

But MT IE, page 15 is contrary to previously published information:

"No special title is awarded to a sector duke". [LDNZ:36].

That one sector duke is spelled out differently can be seen as evidence corroberating the statement in LDNZ.

Reasons for moving the capital are self-evident: Regina saw front-line action. (Not much, but it did). Mora is also far better for a domain HQ.

The last part is irrelevant since there was no need for a domain capital in 1111. I absolutely agree that if Regina had been the sector capital in 1107 then it would make excellent sense to move it to Mora (For one thing, that's the seat of the Sector Duke

). I just think it makes so much sense that Regina wouldn't've been sector capital in the first place. Mora is the gateway to the Marches; it must have dominated the sector for most of its existence. Economically the Duchy of Mora is twice a powerful as Trin and Lunion, two and a half times as powerful as Regina (Jewell included), and three times as powerful as Rhylanor.

By 1116, Norris is Archduke (MTPH pg 83, sidebar. He's made archduke by letters patent in 1114) of Deneb, and becomes the ranking noble in the region. (Hmm. missed that before...) Which clearly implies that he wasn't the ranking noble in the region before then; we know there was no archduke, so was the ranking duke of the region the Duke of The Marches or the Duke of Deneb? This we don't have...

Norris backdated the letter patent he faked to 1114, yes. And, yes, the implication is clear that he wasn't the ranking noble at the time. His diary notes in Survival Margin also implies that Delphine was ("Better me than gawdawful Delphine")

Using corresponding US ranks for the same grades to get rear and vice admiral:
o7 Commodore
O8 Fleet Adm, possibly also Rear Adm
O9 Sector Adm, Possibly also Vice Adm
O10 Grand Adm

Under this method of reading it (since neither HG nor MT list rear nor vice admirals at all) as parallel titles, going from rear to sector is still only 1 rank. It is the only solution which seems to fit.

Except that it doesn't fit. Look at the jobs those vice admirals perform, fer...

Another issue: Sup 3, 10th printing, does not list either as sector capital. In fact, it lists no sector capital.

It lists no capitals, period, so it's not evidence either way.

Sooo.. we can probably assume the regina hub is likely autonomous from "local noble interference", and santanocheev gets his bump from Domain HQ.

There is no suche thing as a Domain HQ.

"The Imperial Navy no longer includes the domains as a level in its bureaucracy." [LDNZ:7]

(Probably for merit... and that on the backs of subordinates). It may even be a possibility that (sice 5Fw's board doesn't cover the whole of the marches) there were two or more sector admirals... Not a happy thought, but a significant possibility.

Potentially there were at least seven sector admirals. Six of the admirals featured in 5FW countermix are senior to Santanocheev. Since he is the ranking admiral in the Spinward Marches, the six others have to come from Deneb, Corridor, and possibly Tobia. This suggests (although it does not prove) that Deneb and Corridor had several sector admirals each. I don't see why it isn't a happy thought, though.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In naval hierarchy of command, is it customary for the admiral commanding one department of one fleet to outrank the admiral commanding the selfsame fleet? Or the ten other admirals commanding ten other fleets in the Marches? Or the 11 other admirals commanding the 11 reserve fleets in the Marches?


Hans

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by rancke:
In naval hierarchy of command, is it customary for the admiral commanding one department of one fleet to outrank the admiral commanding the selfsame fleet? Or the ten other admirals commanding ten other fleets in the Marches? Or the 11 other admirals commanding the 11 reserve fleets in the Marches?


Hans

This may not addres what I think your actual issue is but...

In a hierarchy like the one Aramis mentioned (based on the U.S. Navy) it would depend on the department that the flag officer oversaw and more importantly that officer's 'type'. If the department was commanded by a non-line officer then a lower ranked or equivelently ranked line officer could well be in command of the overall organization. If I understand correctly that heirarchy also allows for officers of lower or equivelent rank that fill one of a limited set of positions at the very top of a chain of command (such as a fleet or task force Vice Commander or a ship's First Officer/XO) to take command despite the presence of higher rank or higher seniority same rank officer because that is the flow of the chain of command.

<brief sort-of-related aside>
The idea of the most senior of the highest ranked officers always taking command was one of the things that frustrated me the most about the way the RMN is set up to operate in Weber's Honor Harrington books. It just never made sense within the context of an established operating group to have the senior living officer (without regard for their position within the group) take over rather than leaving command with previous commander's second-in-command. This especially did not make sense when that organization is in the middle of combat. I suppose it kind of fits the feel of the setting (and may well fit well with the OTU's Imperial Navy as well), but it has always bugged me...
</brief sort-of-related aside>

My assumption regarding the 'missing flag ranks' had always been that the rank sequence that goes Commodore, Fleet Admiral, Sector Admiral, Grand Admiral was simply a result of trying to be different from the U.S. Navy while similar enough not to feel alien.

The way I've assumed it to work IMTU is that Rear and Vice Admirals are equivelent to Fleet and Sector Admirals respectively with the Rear/Vice title either being used by non-line flag officers or by flag officers who do not hold the formal positions of Fleet or Sector Admiral. I agree that this solution does not match everything that can be found in years worth of canon material but it works for me and I figure if any of my players have an issue, I'll explain any inconsistencies off as a result of either the mysteries of Imperial Quasi-Feudal Buearacracy or simply a screw up by the author that never got caught.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
In a hierarchy like the one Aramis mentioned (based on the U.S. Navy) it would depend on the department that the flag officer oversaw and more importantly that officer's 'type'. If the department was commanded by a non-line officer then a lower ranked or equivelently ranked line officer could well be in command of the overall organization. If I understand correctly that heirarchy also allows for officers of lower or equivelent rank that fill one of a limited set of positions at the very top of a chain of command (such as a fleet or task force Vice Commander or a ship's First Officer/XO) to take command despite the presence of higher rank or higher seniority same rank officer because that is the flow of the chain of command.

Yes, but even if Santanocheev is a line officer (which I don't mind assuming). I assume that the posts I mention (basically CinCs of full fleets) are also held by line officers. I consider it unlikely to the point of not being worthy of consideration that a line officer filling a minor staff position would outrank the officer commanding the whole shebang.

I also think that if vice admirals command squadrons, departments, and (at best) task forces and reserve fleets, then vice admirals do not outrank the admirals who command fleets, which would be the case if 'vice admiral' was another word for Sector Admiral' (Als, you may think me strange, but I really feel that Fleet Admirals would command, you know, fleets).

The idea of the most senior of the highest ranked officers always taking command... [snip]

I think we've somehow lost sight of my original argument. Basically I was trying to prove (or at least demonstrate a high likelihood of) the existence of a sector duke in the Spinward Marches in 1107 (or 1106). I'm saying that Santanocheev would not have held such a relatively minor post in 1105 if he had had so exalted a rank that he could advance to the post of sector admiral in 1107 without the intervention of someone to promote him out of his zone (if that's the phrase I want?).

I then go one to claim that, from what canon says about the relationship between Norris and Frederick, that sector duke would not have been Norris. No way, no how. They're just too antaginistic. Whereas we know nothing about Santanocheev's realtionship with Delphine, which means that we're[*] free to establish that he is, for instance, one of her vassals, maybe the Count of Fornice or Heroni or Pallique.

[*] By 'we' I, of course, mean TPTB .


Hans

 

[aramis]

Sup3, 10th printing, shows subsector capitals for most imperial sectors in the marches, and lists which SS governs the others with imperial worlds.

Same for Zhodani SS.
Try again, Hans.

Likewise, since the OTU, based upon CT and MT Core rules sources, has only 4 flag grades in the IN, Rear and vice MUST BE alternate titles for extant grades.

The best support for your argument would be RAdm being a commodore equivalent (Unlikely).

THat GT uses US Naval style ranks is, to my mind, all the more reason to ignore it as non-canon, except for itself.

In any case, perhaps the Vice Admirals listed are unwilling, unable, or busy in the front, and therefore not available for the Sector Admiral slot.

Rebelion sourcebook specifies (P27) that admirals must "answer to several different authorities: the duke of thee subsector in which a fleet is located, the Duke fo the sector in which a fleet operates, the Archduke of the Domain in which a fleet is assigned."

Even if we assume no domain level organization remaining, the Depot is a sector level asset, which does not exist in the marches; therefore, in the case of the Domain of Deneb, there is soem minor circumstantial evidence implying a domain level naval command in the Domain of Deneb, as there is but one Depot for the whole domain. Likewise, Antares lacks a depot.

The existance of a sector duke is not likely between 1098 and 1114. The areas with no proveable sector naval hubs (Depots) happen to also be amongst the areas Strephon appointed Archdukes over, and on the frontier.

Lets review:
There is no sector capital listed, despite subsector capitals being listed, in Sup 3. I can find no reference in MT to a sector duke of the marches; I can find that the 1116 map in MT PH doesn't show a secotr capital, but the MT IE shows Mora as the Sector capital in the world listing.

No OTU (Specifically excluding GT, as it is an ATU) references in my extensive (but admittedly not complete) collection mention a Duke of the Marches, but references exist to both Mora and Regina being Sector capitol.

Later (TNE) references imply a tradition of the sector moot being semi-democratic, and blackletter indicate it becoming more so.

It really appears to me that there is no need for a unified sector duke in 1105; Regina as a subsector can effectively negotiate with the Zhodani, as it controls the two subsectors which directl border the Consulate. Likewise, a subsector fleet command in the rank of Sector Admiral could just be a regional command; higher headquarters (at the depot) exist outside the sector, but in the domain.

Hell, for all we known, Santanocheev could have been elected by the other admirals at regina when the post became vacant. (Wierder things have happened in naval history!)

All the rank titles in SMC and GT:_ do is prove that whomever did them didn't consider the canon already in print as to ranks. A flaw, I assure you. SMC, therefore, really fits about as well as Kinunir.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The Domain of Gateway Capital was moved.

One would think moving the Domain capital would be tougher than the Sector Capital.

But in all fairness. Lets say that the Sector Capital was Mora before 1107. Norris becomes ascendant and the Capital is moved to Regina. Norris is created ArchDuke of the Domain of Deneb. Decides that the Domain is better served by his offices being on Mora so moves the Capital to Mora. Since he is no longer just the Duke of Regina which is where his offices were before he became ArchDuke. Now he can have them anywhere in the Domain he wants and Mora offers three major advantages to Regina. (Location, Location, Location.) Works for me.

Originally posted by rancke:
It occurs to me that there is one aspect of the whole sector capital thing that I have failed to mention.

Just what do you people think is involved in moving a sector capital? Personally I think it is a HUGE undertaking with hundreds of government departments and many thousand of bureaucrats involved. It is not, IMO, something that is undertaken lightly (this is also why I don't believe in the interpretation that makes the sector dukedom shift every few decades as one duke's power waxes and anothers wanes).

If Mora is the sector capital in 1111 (and we are told that it is), then I believe that that is an argument in itself to believe that it already was sector capital in 1107. And, yes, the logic goes both ways and if Regina was the sector capital in 1107, then it probably was the sector capital in 1111 too, and in 1117 still.

So I want a resolution that makes Mora the sector capital from long before 1107 to the present, with no Regina sojourn in between. Or Regina the sector capital from long before 1107 to now, with no Mora mentioned at all (Only, I think the first option is more plausible). What I really, really don't like is Regina as the sector capital in 1107, Mora in 1111, Regina in 1114, and then back to Mora in 1117.

Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Sup3, 10th printing, shows subsector capitals for most imperial sectors in the marches, and lists which SS governs the others with imperial worlds.

Same for Zhodani SS.

I stand corrected.

Likewise, since the OTU, based upon CT and MT Core rules sources, has only 4 flag grades in the IN, Rear and vice MUST BE alternate titles for extant grades.

Now why would you even bother to claim that rear and vice admiral MUST be alternate titles when that is patently not true. I've already provided you with two possible alternatives:

1) The Imperial Navy ranks differ from the generic ranks used in the Character Generation System. Now, I don't insist this is the case (though I do insist that there is canonical evidence to support that view), but that you would refuse to even consider that just possibly a system that is supposed to apply to every single navy in Charted Space is perhaps a little implausible simply boggles me.

2) Rear and vice admiral could be the designations for Fleet Admiral (lower 3rd) and Fleet Admiral (middle 3rd).

That GT uses US Naval style ranks is, to my mind, all the more reason to ignore it as non-canon, except for itself.

Are you somehow under the impression that all the references to rear and vice admirals are from GT? Not so. They show up in both CT and MT material.

In any case, perhaps the Vice Admirals listed are unwilling, unable, or busy in the front, and therefore not available for the Sector Admiral slot.

See my reply to Brennan Hawkwood above.

Rebelion sourcebook specifies (P27) that admirals must "answer to several different authorities: the duke of thee subsector in which a fleet is located, the Duke fo the sector in which a fleet operates, the Archduke of the Domain in which a fleet is assigned."

And p28 says that the Archduke is often bypassed. Also, Rebellion Sourcebook applies to 1117, Library Data to 1105. Plus, Strephon never did appoint an archduke of Deneb, so even if the IN had reintroduced the domain as a level in the other domains, there's no reason to suppose that it did so Behind the Claw.

The existance of a sector duke is not likely between 1098 and 1114.

Why not?

The areas with no proveable sector naval hubs (Depots) happen to also be amongst the areas Strephon appointed Archdukes over, and on the frontier.

Strephon didn't appoint an archduke of Deneb and he didn't appoint any archduke of Antares either.

Lets review:
There is no sector capital listed, despite subsector capitals being listed, in Sup 3.

There is no subsector capital listed in the overview of the Regina subsector in The Kinunir, despite the fact that it is listed in Sup 3. Do you consider that absolute proof that Regina didn't have a subsector capital on 001-1105?

(Note: Yes, I know that Regina is said to be the subsector capital of the Regina subsector in other parts of The Kinunir. But the listings are what corresponds to the information in Sup 3).

I can find no reference in MT to a sector duke of the Marches; I can find that the 1116 map in MT PH doesn't show a sector capital, but the MT IE shows Mora as the Sector capital in the world listing.

So what you're saying is that any single bit of evidence is insufficient to prove or disprove anything about the existence or nonexistence of a sector capital at any particular date? Fancy that!

No OTU (Specifically excluding GT, as it is an ATU) references in my extensive (but admittedly not complete) collection mention a Duke of the Marches, but references exist to both Mora and Regina being Sector capitol.

Well, since no special title is awarded to a sector duke, there wouldn't be any mention of a Duke of the Marches, would there?

It really appears to me that there is no need for a unified sector duke in 1105

There is need. The Spinward Marches consists of a minimum of six duchies. That's quite enough to benefit from a bit of higher-level coordination. The Marches are also a 1000 year old political subdivision of the Imperium, so there's been more than time enough for one to be appointed.

Likewise, a subsector fleet command in the rank of Sector Admiral could just be a regional command; higher headquarters (at the depot) exist outside the sector, but in the domain.

Where do you suddenly get the notion that a depot is an administrative center for the IN? You're chain of logic slips a cog there. Sure, if depots are the sites of sector HQs then the lack of a depot in the Spinward Marches would indicate that the Spinward Marches fleets were under control of the HQ in Deneb. But there's nothing to indicate that depots are the sites of sector HQs.

All the rank titles in SMC and GT:_ do is prove that whomever did them didn't consider the canon already in print as to ranks. A flaw, I assure you. SMC, therefore, really fits about as well as Kinunir.

Hey, that's an idea! we'll just disregard all the canon that you don't like[*]. That'll make the discussion much easier.


Hans

[*] Oh, I'm perfectly aware that I frequently advocate disregarding this or that bit of canon that I don't like. But I do try to justify it by something a tiny bit more substantive than 'because I don't like it'[**]. Sometimes not very much more than that, but...

[**] Of course, sometimes I've worked hard to come up with justifications for disregarding a bit of canon because I didn't like it.

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
In a hierarchy like the one Aramis mentioned (based on the U.S. Navy) it would depend on the department that the flag officer oversaw and more importantly that officer's 'type'. If the department was commanded by a non-line officer then a lower ranked or equivelently ranked line officer could well be in command of the overall organization. If I understand correctly that heirarchy also allows for officers of lower or equivelent rank that fill one of a limited set of positions at the very top of a chain of command (such as a fleet or task force Vice Commander or a ship's First Officer/XO) to take command despite the presence of higher rank or higher seniority same rank officer because that is the flow of the chain of command.

Yes, but even if Santanocheev is a line officer (which I don't mind assuming). I assume that the posts I mention (basically CinCs of full fleets) are also held by line officers. I consider it unlikely to the point of not being worthy of consideration that a line officer filling a minor staff position would outrank the officer commanding the whole shebang.
</font>[/QUOTE]Makes sense. It would certainly be possible for him to have been promoted to a post above them if he had strong enough political allies though I have to agree that it seems kind of odd that he would have been the one picked if Norris was the in the position to make that choice. Might still work if there were compelling reasons to NOT promote one of the other candidates, but it does seem odd.

I also think that if vice admirals command squadrons, departments, and (at best) task forces and reserve fleets, then vice admirals do not outrank the admirals who command fleets, which would be the case if 'vice admiral' was another word for Sector Admiral' (Als, you may think me strange, but I really feel that Fleet Admirals would command, you know, fleets).

I can see that. Is more what you were thinking the sequence of flag ranks should be?

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Rank Title Command Lvl Examples
'07' Commodore Squadron
'08' Rear Admiral Capital Ship Squadron
'09' Vice Admiral Task Force
'010' Fleet Admiral Numbered Subsector Fleet
'011' Sector Admiral Named Sector Fleet
'012' Grand Admiral Domain or Imperium</pre>[/QUOTE]I still kind of like the idea of the fleet and/or sector admirals being alternate titles used by admirals of the approriate rank when they hold the position of Fleet or Sector admiral, but seperating them does make a lot of sense as well. Not that that supports either side of the argument of course...since the ranks don't appear to have been set up that way anywhere 'officially'.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The idea of the most senior of the highest ranked officers always taking command... [snip]

I think we've somehow lost sight of my original argument.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yeah...I kind of wandered off a bit there... but considering that this thread was started as a discussion of the insignia used by the imperial navy and Hans Vermeylen's graphics depicting his take on them...

Basically I was trying to prove (or at least demonstrate a high likelihood of) the existence of a sector duke in the Spinward Marches in 1107 (or 1106). I'm saying that Santanocheev would not have held such a relatively minor post in 1105 if he had had so exalted a rank that he could advance to the post of sector admiral in 1107 without the intervention of someone to promote him out of his zone (if that's the phrase I want?).

I then go one to claim that, from what canon says about the relationship between Norris and Frederick, that sector duke would not have been Norris. No way, no how. They're just too antaginistic. Whereas we know nothing about Santanocheev's realtionship with Delphine, which means that we're[*] free to establish that he is, for instance, one of her vassals, maybe the Count of Fornice or Heroni or Pallique.

[*] By 'we' I, of course, mean TPTB .


Hans

Cool.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The Domain of Gateway Capital was moved.

One would think moving the Domain capital would be tougher than the Sector Capital.[

Oh, if a sector duke blotted his copybook badly enough, or if his heir was a ninny[*], or if some other major consideration gave reason to move the sector capital, of course it could happen. I just don't think it's something that happens often.

[*] But would the Emperor confirm a known ninny as the heir to a duke?

But in all fairness. Lets say that the Sector Capital was Mora before 1107. Norris becomes ascendant and the Capital is moved to Regina.

Ascendant how? I suppose it would have to be politically.

Norris is created ArchDuke of the Domain of Deneb.

Mora is listed as sector capital in 1111, six years before Norris fakes his archducal patent. What you want is a story that explains why the sector capital is moved from Regina to Mora between 1107 and 1111. (My explanation is that it isn't, that Mora is the sector capital all along, but go ahead, dazzle me with your ingenuity).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
I can see that. Is [this] more what you were thinking the sequence of flag ranks should be?

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Rank Title Command Lvl Examples
'07' Commodore Squadron
'08' Rear Admiral Capital Ship Squadron
'09' Vice Admiral Task Force
'010' Fleet Admiral Numbered Subsector Fleet
'011' Sector Admiral Named Sector Fleet
'012' Grand Admiral Domain or Imperium</pre>

[/quote]More or less, if you mean that commodores are in charge of CruRons and rear admirals of BatRons.

Mind you, I don't insist that rear and vice admiral has to be substantive ranks. I did once, but Chris Thrash convinced me that it wasn't necessary, that there are historical examples of the same rank being stretched to cover several organisatorial levels[*]. I still think that those organisatorial levels exist, though, so if the substantive ranks are Fleet Admiral, Sector Admiral, and Grand Admiral, then one or more ranks will have to cover several levels (as I suggested with the Rear admiral = Fleet Admiral (lower 3rd) etc. possibility).

[*] There are still a few reasons to believe that they are substantive ranks, but not incontrovertible ones (One retired guy is referred to as 'Vice Admiral'. If VA was a 'nickname'/courtesy title for a Fleet admiral serving at a certain level, wouldn't a retired Fleet Admiral be referred to as 'Fleet Admiral'? I think so).

Hans