Interstellar Power Projection: Questions
- Thread starter GLΩAMING
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Ritter von Trapp was the top Austro-Hungarian sub commander in World War One, with a very distinguished war record. The grandfather of his first wife was Robert Whitehead, the developer of the submarine torpedo, with Captain von Trapp used quite effectively during the war.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
As I recall, if it weren't for the Americans' insistence on open door policy, China would have been carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey.
Ah yes.
The family that sings together, gets chased across the Swiss Alps by bloodthirsty Nazis together.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Besides the fact that the Austrians, which you could see as a, if not the, successor state to the Holy Roman Empire, pretty much faced land threats on practically all sides, with the acquisition of Adriatic real estate, still faced the possibility of getting blockaded.
Yep.
A few. IIRC, mostly 19th C and in Africa. AH's Pax Britannica has a handful for them. But most of them were more trading compounds and oversized embassies than proper formal colonies. The one that was formally an Austrian extra-european colonial territory was lost during the Boxer Rebellion, and was only a few square miles of a city in the Chinese mainland.
Kakistocrat
SOC-12
Yes, I have Pax Britannica, but if I remember correctly, the naval capability (which is required for establishing overseas interest/influence/protectorates/possessions) of Austria-Hungary limits its potential reach, which is why its power plays were usually concentrated in the Balkans.
China retained sovereignty over all of the land of its foreign concessions; only Macao and Hong Kong were colonial territories. I think that Austria-Hungary only received its concession after the Boxer Rebellion, and it lost its concession after WWI. However, I believe that Austria-Hungary was unique in granting citizenship to all of the Chinese residents who lived in its concession.
Sovereignty is a tricky term.
All the colonial outposts in China were leases, even Hong Kong and Macau - both of which were non-renewed at the end of the last term. They technically were never sovereign territory of anyone but China, at least not in the same sense as French Guyana, Morrocco, New South Wales, or Pennsylvania had been. They were administered by the Colonial Office, defended by the UK military forces, locally governed by the system the UK established... until the leases ran out.
Even Embassies are not technically foreign soil. They are, per the 1961 treaty, "inviolate" while in operation.
An earlier treaty was pretty similar.
Defining Embassy and Consulate properties as colonial is functionally mostly a matter of size... if the site is big enough with a large number of locals living inside, it's very much colonial, even if not formally a colony.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Half of Hong Kong had a ninety nine year lease - the assumption being you just renewed it before it lapses.
Thatcher, after the Falklands, considered holding on to it, and if it were the Nineteen Thirties, would have.
Thatcher, after the Falklands, considered holding on to it, and if it were the Nineteen Thirties, would have.
As per power projection menaing, IMHO, one good example of it would be Incident II (Perfidious Zhodane) in the AHL game, where the Vermillion Stance is in a long range penetration among Imperial Client states and helping them to raise their TL as a "gift from the Emperor".
Power projection is more a diplomatic move (be it good will or threat) than a true miliatry one.
Power projection is more a diplomatic move (be it good will or threat) than a true miliatry one.
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
That is very likely correct, at least for those areas along the coast. Manchuria was grabbed by the Russians following the Sino-Japanese War of 1894, where Japan gained control of the island of Taiwan. Japan got control of Port Arthur following the Russo-Japanese War in 1905, and expanded to take all of Manchuria in 1931. That action was initiated by a captain and major on the Kwantung Army staff. Germany got the concession of Tsing-Tau after the Boxer Rebellion and then lost it in World War One. Japan and Russia were the most interested ones in carving up China, with the French somewhat interested, but they had taken over Indochina, and were happy with that. Great Britain did not want to see any other European power set up in competition to Hong Kong.
Kakistocrat
SOC-12
Yes, it is a tricky term.
Hong Kong Island was formally ceded to the UK in the 1842 Treaty of Nanking, and Kowloon was formally ceded in the 1860 Convention of Peking. As Condottiere noted, it was the New Territories of Hong Kong that were on a 99-year lease starting in 1898. China regained sovereignty over all of these areas in 1997, timed to the expiration of the 99-year lease, but Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were not under that lease; those two areas were ceded back to China.
Most of Macao’s existence was as a perpetual lease from China, but in 1887 the Lisbon Protocol and the Treaty of Peking confirmed that Macao was “as any other Portuguese possession”. From then on it was no longer leased, but there were two conditions which Portugal agreed to: it couldn’t alienate Macao and its dependencies without Chinese agreement, and it agreed to coöperate in “opium revenue work” (the import of opium into China through Chinese customs) at Macao in the same way that the UK did at Hong Kong. After the Carnation Revolution of 1974, Portugal offered to return Macao to China, but China declined at that time. In 1976, Portugal unilaterally changed the status of Macao from “colony” to “territory under Portuguese administration”, and in 1987, the Sino-Portuguese Joint Declaration changed its status to a “Chinese territory under Portuguese administration”. China regained administration of Macao in 1999.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Since Shogun is getting a reboot, I would say that what the Portuguese wanted was a trading outpost, and cultural imperialism through the adoption of (Catholic) Christianity by the inhabitants.
The Spanish gave up the idea of colonization, when they realized the extent of the area to be conquered, and the military power of the Chinese.
Taiwan was certainly in dispute; with a little more ambition, the British should have added that and Hainan to Hong Kong as Crown Colonies.
The Spanish gave up the idea of colonization, when they realized the extent of the area to be conquered, and the military power of the Chinese.
Taiwan was certainly in dispute; with a little more ambition, the British should have added that and Hainan to Hong Kong as Crown Colonies.
