Interstellar Power Projection: Questions
- Thread starter GLΩAMING
- Start date
I fully agree. Power projection is more akin of gunboat diplomacy
You were one of the honorable exceptionsWell ... I did TRY to address that point ...
Spinward Flow
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That's because (in my opinion) power projection (hard AND soft) is a derivative function of a strong economy that is capable of investing into the assets needed (military and mercantile, respectively). In fact, I would even go so far as to say that a strong economy is a precondition requirement before power projection is even possible ... and we have multiple real world examples of this phenomenon going on right now in Solomani Government: 7 world politricks.You were one of the honorable exceptions
Condottiere
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mike wightman
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Timerover51
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That is so very true.
There is, in history, a theory advanced by certain historians that the limits of direct central administration are 3 months to the edge; for decentralized controls, 6 months. I heard it from Dr Jacobs, but not as his belief, in History of Warfare. It does, however, correlate well to the Roman, Byzantine, Chin, French and British Empires. I do beliee he mentioned John Keegan, but I don't recall that being in The Face Of Battle. I do recall laughing outright Keegan's assertions of the modernness of WW I
I feel democracy generally seems to have been limited to about a week; representative democracy to about 60, mixed empire to about 120 (British, French, German, Spanish, and Portuguese Empires).
Note that maximum speed of control is what matters, not common speed of travellers. That puts the jump range about 7.5 days, plus we need a half day to pass control messages on... Hans (RIP), myself, and Cryton worked all this years ago...
so hard minimum of 8 days per jump; sane rates at 8.5 days, and if the ship needs to meet a tanker/tender, 9 days.
the 10 day threshold is 1 jump. Much past one jump, direct democracy really seems unlikely to work, as that's 16 days round, plus action/voting...
Further, the fringes are likely less populous, so even if the votes are not totalled until theirs arrive back, the majority is already known from exit polls.
Representative democracy worked quite well in many US States, Canadian provinces, and Australian States (??? I don't know what the states were called before autonomy of the Commonwealth...), in many cases up to about 4 weeks round trip for single level. But the US and Dminion of Canada both had longer than that for their central governments - 2 months for Alaska during the 19th C, and about 3 or 4 weeks for the train... longer before train and telegraph.
The Roman, Qin, Aztec, Inca, and a few other empires with decentralization ran to about 60 days maximum for a normal traveler, The UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Holland, and Austria-Hungary managed empires up to 120 days of sail one way... by decentralization. That's not as big as whomever Dr. Jacobs was citing (180)... but this gives us a fourth window size
Direct demos: maybe 10 days...
Rep Demos: 30
Multi-level rep demo 60
Territorial remote governments 90 to 120 days
Peak Human Empire 180 days (UK, & Portugal but not for long,)
So, control vs travel - a well set up comm network is faster than sending a rep - simply because it takes under half a day to transfer info from a ship to another ship, but it can take a day to get refuelled and/or transferred to another ship for a passenger. So, we'll list 8 day, 9 day, 10 and 14 day jumps.
| Type | Days | 8day/J | 8.5 day/j | 9day/J | 10day/j | 14j/10 |
| direct demos | 10 | 1 J | 1 j | 1 J | 1 j | ---- |
| Rep Demo | 30 | 3 J | 3 J | 3 j | 3 j | 2 j |
| Multi-level rep demo | 60 | 7 j | 7 j | 6 J | 6 j | 4 j |
| Remote sub-governments | 90 | 11 j | 10 | 10 j | 9 j | 6 j |
| Peak Empire | 180 | 22 J | 21 | 20 j | 18 j | 12 |
8 day is fresh courier waiting, transfer via comms.
8.5 allows for usually meeting a tender
9 is meet the tender, refuel, and jump on.
10 is for reliable passenger service.
14 is the rulebook standard for small merchant service.
How big that means? well... that's pretty much TL based 9/10 is 1 PC, TL 11 is 2, TL 12 is 3...
TL 16 and jump 7 is a matter of which ruleset... IIRC, only T5 allows J7...
Hop uses the same numbers... but is less accurate, and so can result in up to an additional half day for
Timerover51
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Was that Dr. Jacobs at the University of Anchorage? If so, I took a History of World War 2 class from him.
Condottiere
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Power projection doesn't really need control, just a mandate for a certain outcome, if you consider the War of Eighteen Twelve.
Empires are a work in progress.
Empires are a work in progress.
mike wightman
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It is not power projection once it becomes a hot conflict.
Condottiere
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That would be overcoming resistance.
Kakistocrat
SOC-12
Colonies, mainly. The Colony of New South Wales originally also included Tasmania, South Australia (which once included the Northern Territory), New Zealand, Victoria, and Queensland. I think that South Australia was styled a province rather than a colony.
I wonder how the Mongol empire (say, under Kublai Khan, after the defeat of the southern Song) and the Russian empire (before the Siberian Route, a road that preceded the Trans-Siberian Railway) would compare.
Did Austria-Hungary have overseas colonies?
The mongols did operate a vast Asian empire for a time, but I would argue fell into different kingdoms due to lack of identity cohesion and local cultural absorption. A similar fate for Alexander’s empire, due more to lack of succession and identity tied to one man.
I love how, apparently, the nick name of the CVN USS Theodore Roosevelt is "The Stick".
From what I recall, Genghis Khan divided the empire into four or five khanates, answering to one overall khan. Which worked in theory, if not in practice.
There was also a very well organised messenger system which could carry messages about two hundred miles a day (more if they rode through the night or pushed their horses to exhaustion), with stations roughly 4 hours apart.
There was also a very well organised messenger system which could carry messages about two hundred miles a day (more if they rode through the night or pushed their horses to exhaustion), with stations roughly 4 hours apart.
Timerover51
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Austria-Hungary had no overseas colonies. They were to a large degree bottled up in the Adriatic and the Mediterranean. They did send out a couple of exploring expeditions, but no colonies. See the following on Project Gutenberg. There are three volumes to this, but note the dates, 1857-1859
They also sent a frigate to explore the Arctic. No chance for colonies there.
NARRATIVE OF THE DISCOVERIES OF THE AUSTRIAN SHIP “TEGETTHOFF” IN THE YEARS 1872-1874.
Condottiere
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Russia was expansionist, and a land empire that at one time extended to California; modern theory is that it's in constant existentialist crisis, and essentially, the successor state to the Mongol empire.
So, location, location, location.
So, location, location, location.
Kakistocrat
SOC-12
That was my understanding — that Bosnia-Herzegovina was the closest thing that Austria-Hungary had to a colony.
Perhaps the “up to 120 days of sail one way” for Austria-Hungary referred to sailing from Split to, uh, Uzhhorod — the Carpathian leg of that trip would take the longest to navigate.
