It's a Dangerous Universe

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
When we didn't have the room we used hex maps. There is no real difference.

I think BGG would disagree with you...based on his comments about his love for B2 space combat in a previous thread months ago.

BTW, I'm a huge B2 space combat supporter...as long as it uses range band or hex based movement. Starter Traveller, imo, was the best thing that ever happened to B2 space combat.

In fact, B2 space combat, with Starter Traveller range bands, is my Traveller space combat system of choice.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
When we didn't have the room we used hex maps. There is no real difference.

I think BGG would disagree with you...based on his comments about his love for B2 space combat in a previous thread months ago.

BTW, I'm a huge B2 space combat supporter...as long as it uses range band or hex based movement. Starter Traveller, imo, was the best thing that ever happened to B2 space combat.

In fact, B2 space combat, with Starter Traveller range bands, is my Traveller space combat system of choice.

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks for posting the example Supplement Four, it's nice to see how it all plays out.

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks for posting the example Supplement Four, it's nice to see how it all plays out.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
In fact, B2 space combat, with Starter Traveller range bands, is my Traveller space combat system of choice.

Mine too, for use during a game of Traveller.

But if I'm in a wargame mood then LBB2 full vector movement, or Power Projection, or Attack Vector:Tactical

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
In fact, B2 space combat, with Starter Traveller range bands, is my Traveller space combat system of choice.

Mine too, for use during a game of Traveller.

But if I'm in a wargame mood then LBB2 full vector movement, or Power Projection, or Attack Vector:Tactical

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Movement in LBB:2 ship combat isn't that difficult, expecially if you've already played Avalon Hill's Jutland. It is just minis with a 2D vector movement system and people play minis all the time.

Except for the first couple of times you play it. I can still remember my first attempt ... two ships, out of combat range, charge to attack each other. They build up super velocity, shoot twice and are out of range again. Then comes an eternity of reducing that velocity so we could turn around and try again.

But we eventually learned.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Movement in LBB:2 ship combat isn't that difficult, expecially if you've already played Avalon Hill's Jutland. It is just minis with a 2D vector movement system and people play minis all the time.

Except for the first couple of times you play it. I can still remember my first attempt ... two ships, out of combat range, charge to attack each other. They build up super velocity, shoot twice and are out of range again. Then comes an eternity of reducing that velocity so we could turn around and try again.

But we eventually learned.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
I just wanted to play out a small encounter using the enhanced CT combat system I've developed--something CT-lovers could see and follow...to see how the mechanics worked in a game.

I enjoyed reading the post.

I like the random application of each die of damage.

The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters. The more complex the system, the more time is wasted on it. IMTU, I reduced initiative to a single die roll at the start of the fight to determine the order characters got to move and fire - then keep that order until the firefight is over. Lucky shots almost always determined the results better than who shoots first.

[as a side note, I liked your supporting narrative a great deal. Good setting of tone and color for the rolls.]

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
I just wanted to play out a small encounter using the enhanced CT combat system I've developed--something CT-lovers could see and follow...to see how the mechanics worked in a game.

I enjoyed reading the post.

I like the random application of each die of damage.

The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters. The more complex the system, the more time is wasted on it. IMTU, I reduced initiative to a single die roll at the start of the fight to determine the order characters got to move and fire - then keep that order until the firefight is over. Lucky shots almost always determined the results better than who shoots first.

[as a side note, I liked your supporting narrative a great deal. Good setting of tone and color for the rolls.]

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by atpollard:
I enjoyed reading the post.

AT,

I did too. I think we all did.

The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters. The more complex the system, the more time is wasted on it.

That's my experience after 30+ years of gaming too. I've had many more memorable DBM battles using a few dozen 1D6 rolls than I've had ASL battles using hundreds of 2D6 rolls.

It would interesting to run Ken's example using LBB:1 personal combat rules, count the number of die rolls, and then compare that number to the how many times the dice were thrown in the UGM version. Just guessing here, but it would most likely be under twenty versus over fifty. That's fifty or more die rolls for all of one minute of game time for those of you who are counting.

[as a side note, I liked your supporting narrative a great deal. Good setting of tone and color for the rolls.]

That's exactly what made the example gripping - the narrative of the scene. Narrative counts, it's the part provided by the roleplaying of the GM and players. On the other hand, UGM or any other die rolling system provides nothing but roll-playing. You can throw all the dice you want but they aren't going to make up for a lack of roleplaying. No dice system can do that.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by atpollard:
I enjoyed reading the post.

AT,

I did too. I think we all did.

The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters. The more complex the system, the more time is wasted on it.

That's my experience after 30+ years of gaming too. I've had many more memorable DBM battles using a few dozen 1D6 rolls than I've had ASL battles using hundreds of 2D6 rolls.

It would interesting to run Ken's example using LBB:1 personal combat rules, count the number of die rolls, and then compare that number to the how many times the dice were thrown in the UGM version. Just guessing here, but it would most likely be under twenty versus over fifty. That's fifty or more die rolls for all of one minute of game time for those of you who are counting.

[as a side note, I liked your supporting narrative a great deal. Good setting of tone and color for the rolls.]

That's exactly what made the example gripping - the narrative of the scene. Narrative counts, it's the part provided by the roleplaying of the GM and players. On the other hand, UGM or any other die rolling system provides nothing but roll-playing. You can throw all the dice you want but they aren't going to make up for a lack of roleplaying. No dice system can do that.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters.

I definitely see the appeal of not rolling init--or rolling once for a combat encounter. Simple and Easy are always attractive traits when it comes to rpg rules.

But, I'm going to have to disagree with your comment above.

Salmon desperately needed to win one of the initiative throws. If he had--just once--he would have been able to attack Luukhan. He had enough ammo left in his SMG to attempt another spray of Panic Fire...which means, just winning one of those initiative rolls would have allowed him six more attacks at Luukhan (using the -2 Panic Fire DM, of course).

THAT could have changed the scenario...definitely could have had a strong impact on how the scenario played out. Even if box cars were needed on the attack throw (like the first time when Salmon used Panic Fire), chances were decent that at least one hit would be achieved.

Hitting Luukhan, even once, could have put him on the defensive--especially if his END was randomly hit, making Stun checks hard or impossible to make...all of this meaning that a single hit could have reduced Luukhan's END score so low that the Stun check wasn't made, and Luukhan would have been knocked unconscious for 3D minutes.

A completely different victor may have emerged from the fight.

As it stood, Salmon couldn't beat Luukhan's init rolls throughout the encounter, and as Salmon's wounds increased, the penalties to Salmon's init increased as well--moving slower and making it less likely that he'd actually win an init toss.

Consider if I'd thrown initiative once for the entire encounter and Salmon would have won. This means that Salmon would have ended up getting many more attacks then he did in the encouter I wrote--because he would have always gone first, before Luukhan. Spraying that SMG at Luukhan all those times would have been a formidable obstacle for Luukhan to survive (not impossible...just a lot tougher situation that what worked out in the scenario I rolled out).

Given this, Initiative was a very, very important aspect of the fight. It could have gone either way, and because Salmon bricked so many of the initiative rolls during the fight, he got his butt smoked.

It definitely might have been a different outcome had Salmon made an initiative throw or two.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters.

I definitely see the appeal of not rolling init--or rolling once for a combat encounter. Simple and Easy are always attractive traits when it comes to rpg rules.

But, I'm going to have to disagree with your comment above.

Salmon desperately needed to win one of the initiative throws. If he had--just once--he would have been able to attack Luukhan. He had enough ammo left in his SMG to attempt another spray of Panic Fire...which means, just winning one of those initiative rolls would have allowed him six more attacks at Luukhan (using the -2 Panic Fire DM, of course).

THAT could have changed the scenario...definitely could have had a strong impact on how the scenario played out. Even if box cars were needed on the attack throw (like the first time when Salmon used Panic Fire), chances were decent that at least one hit would be achieved.

Hitting Luukhan, even once, could have put him on the defensive--especially if his END was randomly hit, making Stun checks hard or impossible to make...all of this meaning that a single hit could have reduced Luukhan's END score so low that the Stun check wasn't made, and Luukhan would have been knocked unconscious for 3D minutes.

A completely different victor may have emerged from the fight.

As it stood, Salmon couldn't beat Luukhan's init rolls throughout the encounter, and as Salmon's wounds increased, the penalties to Salmon's init increased as well--moving slower and making it less likely that he'd actually win an init toss.

Consider if I'd thrown initiative once for the entire encounter and Salmon would have won. This means that Salmon would have ended up getting many more attacks then he did in the encouter I wrote--because he would have always gone first, before Luukhan. Spraying that SMG at Luukhan all those times would have been a formidable obstacle for Luukhan to survive (not impossible...just a lot tougher situation that what worked out in the scenario I rolled out).

Given this, Initiative was a very, very important aspect of the fight. It could have gone either way, and because Salmon bricked so many of the initiative rolls during the fight, he got his butt smoked.

It definitely might have been a different outcome had Salmon made an initiative throw or two.

 

[Stainless]

Nice play. What would be nice is to have side-by-side combat with the same characters and (as much as possible) the same die rolls, but using the different systems;

CT CT-modified, MT, etc.

 

[Stainless]

Nice play. What would be nice is to have side-by-side combat with the same characters and (as much as possible) the same die rolls, but using the different systems;

CT CT-modified, MT, etc.

 

[Piper]

The combat resolved using Snapshot:
Salmon Jones 888478 (16 action points)
Luukhan Pershiire AA4B77 (14 action points

Turn 1: Salmon chooses not to preempt Luukhan. Luukhan moves (running) a maximum of 21 squares (-1 DM). If he chooses to move by sneaking (-3 DM) he moves a maximum of 4 squares.

Salmon now has a line of sight to Luukhan. 16 action points allow either 2 aimed shots (8 AP each), 2 snapshots (6 AP each), or one of each. In keeping with the narrative, 2 snapshots are chosen (DM -2).

+1 ..... Salmon's SMG skill
-2 ..... snap attack penalty
-4 ..... Luukhan's partial cover penalty*
-1 or -3 Luukhan's movement status

SMG versus cloth at medium range requires an 8+ to hit. No hits are possible. Salmon expends his remaining AP's using the expletive action.

*: Snapshot has no rule for cover. Azhanti High Lightning would provide a DM of -2 but all hits would become more serious. The Traveller Book provides a DM of -4.

Had he preempted Luukhan and selected the "cover" action, he could have engaged Luukhan as he crossed the open space with either an aimed attack or a snap attack (depending on the geography). These attacks would have been resolved without the -4 cover DM.

Turn 2: Salmon is in a bit of a bind. Luukhan's movement status remains in effect until his turn comes up, so Salmon still can't hit him. He can either withdraw, assume a sneaking posture, or grant initiative to Luukhan. Following the narrative, he allows Luukhan the initiative.

Luukhan conducts an aimed attack.
DMs to Luukhan's shotgun blast:
+3 ... Luukhan's Shotgun skill
+1 ... DEX bonus with Shotgun
Shotgun versus nothing at medium range requires a 0 (automatic hit).

Damage throw (4D): 6, 6, 4, 6.
One characteristic (possibly two) are reduced to zero. Salmon is at the mercy of his opponent.

 

[Piper]

The combat resolved using Snapshot:
Salmon Jones 888478 (16 action points)
Luukhan Pershiire AA4B77 (14 action points

Turn 1: Salmon chooses not to preempt Luukhan. Luukhan moves (running) a maximum of 21 squares (-1 DM). If he chooses to move by sneaking (-3 DM) he moves a maximum of 4 squares.

Salmon now has a line of sight to Luukhan. 16 action points allow either 2 aimed shots (8 AP each), 2 snapshots (6 AP each), or one of each. In keeping with the narrative, 2 snapshots are chosen (DM -2).

+1 ..... Salmon's SMG skill
-2 ..... snap attack penalty
-4 ..... Luukhan's partial cover penalty*
-1 or -3 Luukhan's movement status

SMG versus cloth at medium range requires an 8+ to hit. No hits are possible. Salmon expends his remaining AP's using the expletive action.

*: Snapshot has no rule for cover. Azhanti High Lightning would provide a DM of -2 but all hits would become more serious. The Traveller Book provides a DM of -4.

Had he preempted Luukhan and selected the "cover" action, he could have engaged Luukhan as he crossed the open space with either an aimed attack or a snap attack (depending on the geography). These attacks would have been resolved without the -4 cover DM.

Turn 2: Salmon is in a bit of a bind. Luukhan's movement status remains in effect until his turn comes up, so Salmon still can't hit him. He can either withdraw, assume a sneaking posture, or grant initiative to Luukhan. Following the narrative, he allows Luukhan the initiative.

Luukhan conducts an aimed attack.
DMs to Luukhan's shotgun blast:
+3 ... Luukhan's Shotgun skill
+1 ... DEX bonus with Shotgun
Shotgun versus nothing at medium range requires a 0 (automatic hit).

Damage throw (4D): 6, 6, 4, 6.
One characteristic (possibly two) are reduced to zero. Salmon is at the mercy of his opponent.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters.

I definitely see the appeal of not rolling init--or rolling once for a combat encounter. Simple and Easy are always attractive traits when it comes to rpg rules.

But, I'm going to have to disagree with your comment above.

Salmon desperately needed to win one of the initiative throws. If he had--just once--he would have been able to attack Luukhan. He had enough ammo left in his SMG to attempt another spray of Panic Fire...which means, just winning one of those initiative rolls would have allowed him six more attacks at Luukhan (using the -2 Panic Fire DM, of course).</font>[/QUOTE]Salmon started out with initiative, under my house rules he would have been allowed to shoot first every round. To keep things both simple and fair IMTU, everyone shoots/moves and THEN all damage is applied. So unconciousness would occur on the NEXT round. [The real wild west is full of gunfights in which both shooters killed eachother - that's either a lot of tied initiatives, or characters deserve to shoot first and die later.]

Ultimately, Salmon lost because he rolled low and missed his target, while his target rolled a hit and VERY HIGH Damage. This fight was not decided by Initiative, it was decided by effective/ineffective shots.

There is no substitute for luck.

[EDIT: For those rare times when initiative IS critical - for example, the bad guy is going to finish off your unconcious friend unless you can kill the bad guy with your sniper rifle - then break out the most complex initiative system you want with modifiers for everything up to and including which characters had a propper breakfast. But save all of the rolls for times that matter and don't needlessly slow down the combat rounds with lots of rolls.]

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
The post also points out a personal observation of mine that initiative seldom matters.

I definitely see the appeal of not rolling init--or rolling once for a combat encounter. Simple and Easy are always attractive traits when it comes to rpg rules.

But, I'm going to have to disagree with your comment above.

Salmon desperately needed to win one of the initiative throws. If he had--just once--he would have been able to attack Luukhan. He had enough ammo left in his SMG to attempt another spray of Panic Fire...which means, just winning one of those initiative rolls would have allowed him six more attacks at Luukhan (using the -2 Panic Fire DM, of course).</font>[/QUOTE]Salmon started out with initiative, under my house rules he would have been allowed to shoot first every round. To keep things both simple and fair IMTU, everyone shoots/moves and THEN all damage is applied. So unconciousness would occur on the NEXT round. [The real wild west is full of gunfights in which both shooters killed eachother - that's either a lot of tied initiatives, or characters deserve to shoot first and die later.]

Ultimately, Salmon lost because he rolled low and missed his target, while his target rolled a hit and VERY HIGH Damage. This fight was not decided by Initiative, it was decided by effective/ineffective shots.

There is no substitute for luck.

[EDIT: For those rare times when initiative IS critical - for example, the bad guy is going to finish off your unconcious friend unless you can kill the bad guy with your sniper rifle - then break out the most complex initiative system you want with modifiers for everything up to and including which characters had a propper breakfast. But save all of the rolls for times that matter and don't needlessly slow down the combat rounds with lots of rolls.]