It's a Dangerous Universe

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Even if box cars were needed on the attack throw (like the first time when Salmon used Panic Fire), chances were decent that at least one hit would be achieved.

The statistical odds of rolling "box cars" is a 1 in 36 chance. Salmon could empty two full clips [40 rounds] and would still probably have hit only once (10 or 11 points of damage on average). Panic fire is good for encouraging the enemy to stay behind cover, but it is not the most effective way to kill an oponent.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Even if box cars were needed on the attack throw (like the first time when Salmon used Panic Fire), chances were decent that at least one hit would be achieved.

The statistical odds of rolling "box cars" is a 1 in 36 chance. Salmon could empty two full clips [40 rounds] and would still probably have hit only once (10 or 11 points of damage on average). Panic fire is good for encouraging the enemy to stay behind cover, but it is not the most effective way to kill an oponent.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
To keep things both simple and fair IMTU, everyone shoots/moves and THEN all damage is applied.

Ahh...gotcha. Well, that makes a lot of sense, then. If I ever went to a one-initiative-roll-per-combat-encounter type of thing, I'd copy you on this.

Still, rolling init does have some advantages for players, under my house rules. The idea is to "go first and kill or incapacitate your enemy before he gets a chance to do the same to you".

This type of thing wouldn't be possible in what you've described under the everybody-goes-then-damage-is-applied combat.

What happened in my example above was Salmon sprayed and got unlucky with his hit...then never got to go fire his weapon again after the first...because we roll initiative each round.

Under a method like yours, that type of thing isn't possible. Salmon would have gotten other turns.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
To keep things both simple and fair IMTU, everyone shoots/moves and THEN all damage is applied.

Ahh...gotcha. Well, that makes a lot of sense, then. If I ever went to a one-initiative-roll-per-combat-encounter type of thing, I'd copy you on this.

Still, rolling init does have some advantages for players, under my house rules. The idea is to "go first and kill or incapacitate your enemy before he gets a chance to do the same to you".

This type of thing wouldn't be possible in what you've described under the everybody-goes-then-damage-is-applied combat.

What happened in my example above was Salmon sprayed and got unlucky with his hit...then never got to go fire his weapon again after the first...because we roll initiative each round.

Under a method like yours, that type of thing isn't possible. Salmon would have gotten other turns.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The statistical odds of rolling "box cars" is a 1 in 36 chance. Salmon could empty two full clips [40 rounds] and would still probably have hit only once (10 or 11 points of damage on average).

You're forgetting that Luukhan wouldn't have been able to take advantage of his -2 Evasion DM later in the encounter since he was firing his weapon. Salmon, if he'd beat Luukhan on an initiative throw, would have been able to plow 6 more attacks at Luukhan, hitting on a 10+ (Luukhan still benefitted greatly from the partial cover).

That ups Salmon's odds of hitting substancially--more than 5 times better than when he needed a 12 to hit. Chances are he would have hit at least 3 times.

But, see, Salmon didn't get that opportunity...because of initiative.

This was very important to the scenario--initiative could have changed the outcome.

Salmon needed to go first. He didn't, and he got creamed.

It definitely might have been a different story had Salmon gone first...Luukhan could have very well got creamed.

We have different play styles, sure. Most people do. Neither one is better than the other (it's all what floats your boat, right ).

When you're playing with instant damage effects, like we are, initiative can be very important...a character's life could depend on it.

And, certainly, in this scenario above, Salmon's life depeneded on his inititiave...and he's dead.

This fight was not decided by Initiative, it was decided by effective/ineffective shots.

The fact that Salmon didn't hit with his initial panic fire in round 1 definitely had an effect on the outcome of the combat encounter.

But, what I must not be communicating well is that initiative also had a very real impact on the outcome of the encounter as well.

Consider that round 1 above went like it did: Luukhan moves into position behind the crates, and Salmon let's loose holy terror from his SMG, the bullets slamming into things all around Luukhan.

But, consider a round 2 where Salmon won the initiatve. Salmon could have panic fired again, letting loose another six shots...this time at a 10+ to hit rather than the 12+ needed in round 1 (unless Luukhan decided to continue evading and give up his opportunity to attack or do other actions this round).

Salmon would have had a much better chance of hitting.

Or, he could have let loose with a regular autofire attack...allowing 2 attack throws but dropping the -2 DM for panic fire, making his two attacks at 8+ (even more likely he would have hit).

Or, he could have taken a single shot, using aimed fire (if his SMG is capable of semi-auto fire), gaining a +2DM to hit...making that one attack throw successful on a 6+ roll.

You see...there would have been a lot of opportunities for Salmon to turn the encounter around in wounding/killing/putting Luukhan on the defensive had Salmon won an inititiave throw.

Salmon didn't win an initiative throw, and he never got those opportunties. He never got to attack again because he didn't win an init throw.

See...initiative was very important to this encounter. Salmon didn't loose just because he bricked the panic fire attacks in round one.

He lost because he never got to attack again. And, why didn't he get to attack again? Because he lost initiative each of the succeeding rounds...Luukhan won init...and Luukhan was able to attack and hit.

Initiative played a very important role in this encounter.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The statistical odds of rolling "box cars" is a 1 in 36 chance. Salmon could empty two full clips [40 rounds] and would still probably have hit only once (10 or 11 points of damage on average).

You're forgetting that Luukhan wouldn't have been able to take advantage of his -2 Evasion DM later in the encounter since he was firing his weapon. Salmon, if he'd beat Luukhan on an initiative throw, would have been able to plow 6 more attacks at Luukhan, hitting on a 10+ (Luukhan still benefitted greatly from the partial cover).

That ups Salmon's odds of hitting substancially--more than 5 times better than when he needed a 12 to hit. Chances are he would have hit at least 3 times.

But, see, Salmon didn't get that opportunity...because of initiative.

This was very important to the scenario--initiative could have changed the outcome.

Salmon needed to go first. He didn't, and he got creamed.

It definitely might have been a different story had Salmon gone first...Luukhan could have very well got creamed.

We have different play styles, sure. Most people do. Neither one is better than the other (it's all what floats your boat, right ).

When you're playing with instant damage effects, like we are, initiative can be very important...a character's life could depend on it.

And, certainly, in this scenario above, Salmon's life depeneded on his inititiave...and he's dead.

This fight was not decided by Initiative, it was decided by effective/ineffective shots.

The fact that Salmon didn't hit with his initial panic fire in round 1 definitely had an effect on the outcome of the combat encounter.

But, what I must not be communicating well is that initiative also had a very real impact on the outcome of the encounter as well.

Consider that round 1 above went like it did: Luukhan moves into position behind the crates, and Salmon let's loose holy terror from his SMG, the bullets slamming into things all around Luukhan.

But, consider a round 2 where Salmon won the initiatve. Salmon could have panic fired again, letting loose another six shots...this time at a 10+ to hit rather than the 12+ needed in round 1 (unless Luukhan decided to continue evading and give up his opportunity to attack or do other actions this round).

Salmon would have had a much better chance of hitting.

Or, he could have let loose with a regular autofire attack...allowing 2 attack throws but dropping the -2 DM for panic fire, making his two attacks at 8+ (even more likely he would have hit).

Or, he could have taken a single shot, using aimed fire (if his SMG is capable of semi-auto fire), gaining a +2DM to hit...making that one attack throw successful on a 6+ roll.

You see...there would have been a lot of opportunities for Salmon to turn the encounter around in wounding/killing/putting Luukhan on the defensive had Salmon won an inititiave throw.

Salmon didn't win an initiative throw, and he never got those opportunties. He never got to attack again because he didn't win an init throw.

See...initiative was very important to this encounter. Salmon didn't loose just because he bricked the panic fire attacks in round one.

He lost because he never got to attack again. And, why didn't he get to attack again? Because he lost initiative each of the succeeding rounds...Luukhan won init...and Luukhan was able to attack and hit.

Initiative played a very important role in this encounter.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
For those rare times when initiative IS critical - for example, the bad guy is going to finish off your unconcious friend unless you can kill the bad guy with your sniper rifle - then break out the most complex initiative system you want with modifiers for everything up to and including which characters had a propper breakfast.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with my initiative system, but it's not complicated at all.

It's simply a morale check (using the morale rules listed in Striker and Book 4).

Civilian Morale = 1D + Tactics

Military Morale = 1D +1 + Tactics + No. of Terms

Morale cannot be higher than your INT score, so you end up with a number that runs 1-15, just like the usual CT attribute. Record this on your character sheet (see the sheets in my sig), and you're done.





When you make an initiative roll, just roll 2D for Morale or less.

If the check succeeds, then your roll is your initiative.

If the check fails, add 10 to your roll.

DMs to the initiative roll apply only when (1) the character is wounded or (2) when the character has Leader skill.

Pretty simple stuff.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
For those rare times when initiative IS critical - for example, the bad guy is going to finish off your unconcious friend unless you can kill the bad guy with your sniper rifle - then break out the most complex initiative system you want with modifiers for everything up to and including which characters had a propper breakfast.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with my initiative system, but it's not complicated at all.

It's simply a morale check (using the morale rules listed in Striker and Book 4).

Civilian Morale = 1D + Tactics

Military Morale = 1D +1 + Tactics + No. of Terms

Morale cannot be higher than your INT score, so you end up with a number that runs 1-15, just like the usual CT attribute. Record this on your character sheet (see the sheets in my sig), and you're done.





When you make an initiative roll, just roll 2D for Morale or less.

If the check succeeds, then your roll is your initiative.

If the check fails, add 10 to your roll.

DMs to the initiative roll apply only when (1) the character is wounded or (2) when the character has Leader skill.

Pretty simple stuff.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
...but save all of the rolls for times that matter and don't needlessly slow down the combat rounds with lots of rolls.]

This is probably a personal taste thing. I let the dice decide A LOT of things in my game.

Player: "Hey, I need that comm unit right now...Ref, is it hanging on my belt or in my backback?"

GM: "Roll me higher die. You win, it's on your belt. I win, it's in your backpack."

That's a pretty common type of thing that happens in my game. If I don't have a strong feeling about it one way or the other...I just let the dice decide.

We had this encounter one time--just an impromptu rpg thing that blew up into a huge bar brawl NOT planned by the GM. The crowd was getting after it, and one of the PC's ran and flopped over behind the bar. He said, "This is a bar, right? They got a shotgun or club or something back here?"

I hadn't thought of that--I was playing the encounter on the fly--so I just defaulted to letting the dice decide, like I normally do.

Higher die said there was some sort of weapon behind the bar. Higher die again said that the weapon was indeed a shotgun.

So, I mapped out the bar in a round-cornered half rectangle and pointed to a spot, saying to the player, "You're here in spot 4....I'll roll 1D to see just where the shotgun is located under the bar."

Wouldn't you know...I rolled a "4". The players screamed!

It was a cool moment in the game.


Just recently (game session before last), the PC's ship had been boarded, but the captain had barricaded himself in engineering. The rest of the crew had been "captured", but the captain didn't know this. I was pulling a switcher-roo on the players--them thinking the borders were "friends" (long story) when in fact, they weren't.

Well, MOST of the players bought it. There was a lot of role playing, but their suspicions were allayed....for all EXCEPT the player playing the captain.

The captain just didn't want to give up his ship. Even though my role-played-reasons-through-the-NPCs made sense...he just wasn't buying it 100%.

But, I eventually coaxed him through the role playing discussion out of the engineering compartment...and then I sprung my trap on him. "Throw him into cold berth along with the others!"

And that's when the player slid me a note, saying, "This is what my character was doing all that time in enginnering" (while my NPCs were trying to "talk" him out).

I looked at the paper and saw that the captain had been using his computer and engineering skills to overcome the ship's safeties so that the reaction would go critical.

Oh shit!

As a GM, this caught me entirely off guard.

The other players were sweating it because they knew, from the years we've played together, that I'm the type of GM that just might let the entire ship and all the beloved PCs blow.

The other players didn't know whether to start yelling at the player playing the captain or kiss him. They were all duped by me in the earlier role playing into thinking they'd be safe when, in fact, my smooth talkin' NPCs talked the crewmembers out of their stations and right into their enemies' hands.

But, on the other hand, being captured is a lot better than being dead. And if the ship blows, they just might be dead.

Here's how I handled it:


It was in two parts. First, I figured the captain had to be successful in deactivating the ship's safties. Now, the captain knows this ship like the back of his hand, having spent over 20 years on her. On the other hand, ship's safties for things like the ship's powerplant going boom can't be that easy to overcome...99.9999% of the time, this is something to be desperately avoided.

So, I decided this would be a task for the captain (in UGM terms): Engineering/EDU/+2

Which means, to the non-UGM user, the captain would need to roll a 6+ on 2D, using his Engineering skill as a beneficial DM (and a possible +1DM due to his EDU score).

My thought was that this task wouldn't be a standard pass-fail type. The captain was in the enginnering compartment long enough (hours) to set the reaction in motion towards a melt down.

The task would decide how successful the captain had been from hiding the event to the NPCs on the bridge (keeping their red lights from flashing and such).

If the captain rolled 6+ on the task (likely), then he was completely succesful in disengaging the over-rides and safties associated with having the powerplant blow.

If the captain failed the roll, this would allow the bridge NPCs to notice the build up and have a chance to reverse the power build up.

Well...

Inside my head, too, I had decided that I would blow the ship if it went undetected. It'd be up to the captain to tel the others to start heading for the airlocks.

The captain rolled his task: 2D + Engineering for 6+.

Everone held their breath.

And he ended up with a total of...4.

Whew!

OK. The tension was there around the gaming table (because player knew their fate was resting on die rolls).

I said, "The two NPCs on the bridge notice the power building up in the ship's powerplant. They see it's imperative that steps be taken to bring the plant back down to nominal levels. Here's what we're going to do...."

The captain had missed his roll by 2 points.

The main NPC on the bridge had Computer skill, which he would use in trying to use bridge command controls to take charge of the powerplant situation.

I said, "I'm going to roll 2D +2 ("+2" because the lead NPC on the bridge had the Computer-2 skill) for the bridge crew and their effort to override the captain's self-destruct instructions. The captain, on the other hand, will roll 2D -2 ("-2"because he had missed his original roll by 2).

"We'll both toss. If the captain wins, then the NPC's aren't able to take control of the powerplant in time, and the ship blows.

"If I win, then the NPCs on the bridge are able to take control and stop the countdown."

This was a very tense moment in the game...one of the tensest I've ever had.

My players knew me...they know I would blow the ship.

They know their characters are hanging in the balance.

And, I know I've achieved all this cool, gonna-be-talked-about-for-a-long-time-among-the-players tension in the game simply by....relying on dice throws.

Because I relied on the dice throws, my players knew it wasn't some story element I was playing--part of some grand plan.

They knew that I didn't already know the outcome...just like they didn't.

So...it was a very, very hairy moment when the captain threw his dice, and I threw mine.

The captain ended up throwing a 5...reduced to a 3 because of the -2DM.

And I threw....I threw....yep, I threw BOXCARS!

It was AMAZING!

The players actually stood up and CLAPPED!

It was all that tension releasing.

It was a very cool, incredible moment constructed in the game.

And, my point is... that neat moment we all experienced happened because of the way I always use dice throws in my game.

I'm a dice-throw kinda guy.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
...but save all of the rolls for times that matter and don't needlessly slow down the combat rounds with lots of rolls.]

This is probably a personal taste thing. I let the dice decide A LOT of things in my game.

Player: "Hey, I need that comm unit right now...Ref, is it hanging on my belt or in my backback?"

GM: "Roll me higher die. You win, it's on your belt. I win, it's in your backpack."

That's a pretty common type of thing that happens in my game. If I don't have a strong feeling about it one way or the other...I just let the dice decide.

We had this encounter one time--just an impromptu rpg thing that blew up into a huge bar brawl NOT planned by the GM. The crowd was getting after it, and one of the PC's ran and flopped over behind the bar. He said, "This is a bar, right? They got a shotgun or club or something back here?"

I hadn't thought of that--I was playing the encounter on the fly--so I just defaulted to letting the dice decide, like I normally do.

Higher die said there was some sort of weapon behind the bar. Higher die again said that the weapon was indeed a shotgun.

So, I mapped out the bar in a round-cornered half rectangle and pointed to a spot, saying to the player, "You're here in spot 4....I'll roll 1D to see just where the shotgun is located under the bar."

Wouldn't you know...I rolled a "4". The players screamed!

It was a cool moment in the game.


Just recently (game session before last), the PC's ship had been boarded, but the captain had barricaded himself in engineering. The rest of the crew had been "captured", but the captain didn't know this. I was pulling a switcher-roo on the players--them thinking the borders were "friends" (long story) when in fact, they weren't.

Well, MOST of the players bought it. There was a lot of role playing, but their suspicions were allayed....for all EXCEPT the player playing the captain.

The captain just didn't want to give up his ship. Even though my role-played-reasons-through-the-NPCs made sense...he just wasn't buying it 100%.

But, I eventually coaxed him through the role playing discussion out of the engineering compartment...and then I sprung my trap on him. "Throw him into cold berth along with the others!"

And that's when the player slid me a note, saying, "This is what my character was doing all that time in enginnering" (while my NPCs were trying to "talk" him out).

I looked at the paper and saw that the captain had been using his computer and engineering skills to overcome the ship's safeties so that the reaction would go critical.

Oh shit!

As a GM, this caught me entirely off guard.

The other players were sweating it because they knew, from the years we've played together, that I'm the type of GM that just might let the entire ship and all the beloved PCs blow.

The other players didn't know whether to start yelling at the player playing the captain or kiss him. They were all duped by me in the earlier role playing into thinking they'd be safe when, in fact, my smooth talkin' NPCs talked the crewmembers out of their stations and right into their enemies' hands.

But, on the other hand, being captured is a lot better than being dead. And if the ship blows, they just might be dead.

Here's how I handled it:


It was in two parts. First, I figured the captain had to be successful in deactivating the ship's safties. Now, the captain knows this ship like the back of his hand, having spent over 20 years on her. On the other hand, ship's safties for things like the ship's powerplant going boom can't be that easy to overcome...99.9999% of the time, this is something to be desperately avoided.

So, I decided this would be a task for the captain (in UGM terms): Engineering/EDU/+2

Which means, to the non-UGM user, the captain would need to roll a 6+ on 2D, using his Engineering skill as a beneficial DM (and a possible +1DM due to his EDU score).

My thought was that this task wouldn't be a standard pass-fail type. The captain was in the enginnering compartment long enough (hours) to set the reaction in motion towards a melt down.

The task would decide how successful the captain had been from hiding the event to the NPCs on the bridge (keeping their red lights from flashing and such).

If the captain rolled 6+ on the task (likely), then he was completely succesful in disengaging the over-rides and safties associated with having the powerplant blow.

If the captain failed the roll, this would allow the bridge NPCs to notice the build up and have a chance to reverse the power build up.

Well...

Inside my head, too, I had decided that I would blow the ship if it went undetected. It'd be up to the captain to tel the others to start heading for the airlocks.

The captain rolled his task: 2D + Engineering for 6+.

Everone held their breath.

And he ended up with a total of...4.

Whew!

OK. The tension was there around the gaming table (because player knew their fate was resting on die rolls).

I said, "The two NPCs on the bridge notice the power building up in the ship's powerplant. They see it's imperative that steps be taken to bring the plant back down to nominal levels. Here's what we're going to do...."

The captain had missed his roll by 2 points.

The main NPC on the bridge had Computer skill, which he would use in trying to use bridge command controls to take charge of the powerplant situation.

I said, "I'm going to roll 2D +2 ("+2" because the lead NPC on the bridge had the Computer-2 skill) for the bridge crew and their effort to override the captain's self-destruct instructions. The captain, on the other hand, will roll 2D -2 ("-2"because he had missed his original roll by 2).

"We'll both toss. If the captain wins, then the NPC's aren't able to take control of the powerplant in time, and the ship blows.

"If I win, then the NPCs on the bridge are able to take control and stop the countdown."

This was a very tense moment in the game...one of the tensest I've ever had.

My players knew me...they know I would blow the ship.

They know their characters are hanging in the balance.

And, I know I've achieved all this cool, gonna-be-talked-about-for-a-long-time-among-the-players tension in the game simply by....relying on dice throws.

Because I relied on the dice throws, my players knew it wasn't some story element I was playing--part of some grand plan.

They knew that I didn't already know the outcome...just like they didn't.

So...it was a very, very hairy moment when the captain threw his dice, and I threw mine.

The captain ended up throwing a 5...reduced to a 3 because of the -2DM.

And I threw....I threw....yep, I threw BOXCARS!

It was AMAZING!

The players actually stood up and CLAPPED!

It was all that tension releasing.

It was a very cool, incredible moment constructed in the game.

And, my point is... that neat moment we all experienced happened because of the way I always use dice throws in my game.

I'm a dice-throw kinda guy.