RandyT0001
SOC-13
Flykiller Titan has, in Traveller terms, an exotic atmosphere not a standard atmosphere with free oxygen. In Traveller world generation rules you can't roll up Titan's 2Axxxx UWP.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
The original OTU, and the new improved version.
If I could go back 30 years and whisper in Marc's ear there are many things I'd like to change about the OTU. I'd make your changes to the stars and worlds, and lose a lot of the planets, history, and aliens.
But I can't.
The OTU is what it is, warts and all.
I don't think anyone is saying that this isn't Traveller. Who is Mal fighting against?
These sorts of things that are the rites of passage for any referee that tries to make use of the OTU. Even before Book 6, referee's would improvise these sorts of details. Where are the Traveller nuts that supposedly get fits of hysteria at the slightest hint of changing the OTU? They don't exist because Mal's just beating up a straw man....
Mal's proposal to get rid of all the aliens is NOT Traveller. At best it's a highly customized ATU. The whole Grandfather/Ancients thing is pretty fundamental to the setting... and making these sorts of changes triggers a butterfly affect impacts all sorts of things. Referees that dislike certain aliens tend to simply ignore them or omit them from anything more than their cantina scenes; that's the Traveller way.
Mal's proposal to make habital worlds rarer is NOT Traveller. The shifting of the backwaters is a crafty technique for using Traveller scenarios with other home brew universes, I admit. And stealing ideas certainly fundamental to being a good ref. But this kind of sweeping change is a veritable tsunami of destruction to the core "feel" of the OTU. How many of the game's systems would you have to overhaul to make this fly? No... this is too invasive. An article or a series of JTAS articles could provide enough information to bring this nearly to ATU status, but it would need a lot of help. I'm skeptical.
I don't think he's fighting against anyone. He's just trying to understand why a lot of folks have a hissy fit when anyone suggests changes to the rules and/or canon, even when those changes are minor cosmetic ones that won't impact on the setting visibly.
Changes to world creation I can take or leave. I make my planets the same way George Lucas does so I'd ignore world creation no matter how realistic it was. So I guess I'm saying, change it if you like I wouldn't notice. I certainly wouldn't complain about it not being Traveller.
Changing the aliens though would, I think, break the setting visibly. The aliens have a very distinctive look about them and that adds a lot of colour to the setting for me nomatter how infeasible they might be. They are, I think intrinsic to the setting's flavour. Suddenly making them all human would break the setting as surely as say, making Regina an ice world. If you've been there before in an adventure, it'd make no sense!
Crow
R
Roger Calver
Guest
I think that its just best to agree to disagree on these topics and leave out the who is fighting who remarks.
On the subject of “Stargates” and what makes something “not Traveller”:
(For this discussion a Stargate is assumed to be anything that allows interstellar travel except a J1 to J6 Jump Drive installed on a starship.)
As previously stated, much of the feel of the Official Traveller Universe comes from the dynamics of ships travelling from point A to point B with many areas being FAR from the center of government. Any “stargate” which connected the Sector capitals with the Imperial capital would alter the basic function of the Imperial government and radically change the Traveller “feel”.
The construction of a J1 to J6 “stargate” which allowed a non-starship to jump to the next world in 1 week would be different but could function as a viable Traveller setting.
The existence of a wormhole like connection between certain systems (for example all binary stars have a natural connection to all adjacent binary stars) that can only be accessed by creating a “Stargate” at each end would create a very different but possibly interesting Alternate Traveller Universe. It would create more of a Honor Harrington Universe type of Imperium with certain systems becoming critical nodes for commercial and military reasons. This could mesh well with the 36 parsec maximum misjump and the theoretical gravity neutral jump point between two massive objects, so it does have some basis in Traveller “lore”.
Just some thoughts for discussion.
(For this discussion a Stargate is assumed to be anything that allows interstellar travel except a J1 to J6 Jump Drive installed on a starship.)
As previously stated, much of the feel of the Official Traveller Universe comes from the dynamics of ships travelling from point A to point B with many areas being FAR from the center of government. Any “stargate” which connected the Sector capitals with the Imperial capital would alter the basic function of the Imperial government and radically change the Traveller “feel”.
The construction of a J1 to J6 “stargate” which allowed a non-starship to jump to the next world in 1 week would be different but could function as a viable Traveller setting.
The existence of a wormhole like connection between certain systems (for example all binary stars have a natural connection to all adjacent binary stars) that can only be accessed by creating a “Stargate” at each end would create a very different but possibly interesting Alternate Traveller Universe. It would create more of a Honor Harrington Universe type of Imperium with certain systems becoming critical nodes for commercial and military reasons. This could mesh well with the 36 parsec maximum misjump and the theoretical gravity neutral jump point between two massive objects, so it does have some basis in Traveller “lore”.
Just some thoughts for discussion.
M
Malenfant
Guest
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040810.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070207.html
here we have a real-life example (not the result of some simulation) of something almost exactly like this. book 3 says that the hydrographic percentage doesn't have to be water. so there you are.</font>[/QUOTE]Wrong again.
As I've already pointed out, small worlds can hold onto thick atmospheres ONLY if they're in the outer zone. Titan couldn't hold onto its atmosphere if it was in the habitable zone. (plus, it's got atm A, not 6).
M
Malenfant
Guest
They do exist though. Every time I propose trying to make something more realistic in the OTU, I get people saying "but that wouldn't be Traveller".
I don't know how many more times I have to say that this was a hypothetical example.
The fact that Hivers are big starfish or Aslan are cat-like isn't the thing that makes them cool. What people like about them are their culture and history and how they interact with others. Had they been defined initially as humans with those cultures, I suspect that few people would have thought they were less interesting.
By analogy, I don't think the fact that Planet X orbits a blue supergiant or a binary star or a red dwarf or whatever is what's making it interesting from a game perspective - it's the adventures that you can have on the planet and the people on it. Whether you have those adventures under a city-sized protective dome or in the open air, or in actinic blue light or dim red light doesn't really make much difference in practice.
You say that, but I don't think it does matter to most people. What you need is a Precursor race that left the odd ruin scattered around and who apparently destroyed a few planets in the process. Nobody in the Traveller setting even knows who Grandfather is.
Well first you just start with a statement saying that this wouldn't be Traveller. Then you dismiss the "backwater shift" that actually works perfectly well. How many scenarios do you know that require the players to be on a specific world? Yes, it's crafty, but most of the time it will actually work (plus it makes people realise that worlds really are actual planets with other settlements on them, not just one big startown they stop off at). You mention this core "feel" of traveller that is supposed to remain sacrosanct, but don't really define it... but it's quite possible to make these changes in a way that retains this "core feel" - it's just that people seem to be scared to admit or investigate this.
A Point of clarification, please. Are Klingons, Vulcans, and Romulans all "human"? I was just curious where the human/alien line fell with respect to anthropomorphism.Originally posted by Scarecrow:
I was just looking at the top of my monitor. It has a whole load of my Traveller paper miniatures along the length of it. I think they'd be a lot less interesting if they were all human
I've invested a lot in getting to know the Traveller Universe: time, money, aggravation, and failed campaign ideas.
I've got zero patience for the unrestrained scientific accuracy and "realism" critiques. In the first place, it undermines my confidence in the Traveller gaming tools that actually go a long way toward making the Universe accessible. In the second place, I lack the technical proficiency to apply standards of realism across all of the game's subsystems and in the actual game scenarios.
Maybe you can make all the changes and retain some semblance of the undefinable "core feel." But what if you're eliminating most of the things that attracted me to the system to begin with?
I value playability over realism. I love the default "sense of space" that Traveller has had from the beginning: it's so much more anchored than the nebulous Star Wars/Star Trek deal. I get defensive when someone's critique implies that my campaign is somehow illegitamate or that this thing I've invested so much time in is dumb.
[Aside: One reason this is such a sticky topic is that it's almost like a religious debate: How much of the Bible can you change and it still be a Christian? Can you compromise on 6 day creation and still be a Christian? Can you add the Book of Morman and still be a Christian? Or even more controversial: How far can you change Tolkien's characters and still have a Lord of the Rings Movie???]
R
Roger Calver
Guest
My comment was in general and not at you, its very easy to make a post were words can be taken out of context (I have done this before myself), thats one reason I try to preview mine before posting.
Sorry if you took it as I was taking a poke at you
Sorry if you took it as I was taking a poke at you
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
So...
a) If a "Stargate" network placed its terminals no closer than 36 parsecs from each other, it would not violate the "Spirit of Traveller." Keep in mind that my intent was always to place these items on marginal worlds or in marginal regions of populated worlds, and never inside the Moot chambers, for example. Your thoughts, please?
b) Excerpt from 76 More Patrons, MCMLXVIth edition: What appears to be a middle-aged human male catches the attention of the adventurers. He is wearing a bowler hat, a 3-piece suit, and patent-leather shoes. He is carrying a bumbershoot in one hand, and a carpetbag in the other. He sports a neatly-trimmed mustache and round eyeglasses. He introduces himself as a Hiver, and offers the adventurers an assignment: deliver a wrapped parcel to a specific address on the other side of the extrality line, and return with another. They will be paid Cr1000 for their troubles. The outcome is:
1) The patron has been thouroughly manipulated into believing that he is a Hiver, and the assignment is legitimate.
2) The patron is merely working for a Hiver, and the assignment is legitimate.
3) The patron is thouroughly delusional, and the assignment is bogus.
4) The patron's real name is Parsifal Hiverson, he is a reconstructionist, and the package contains priceless artifacts from Terra's pre-starflight era.
5) As #4, and the package contains a priceless Ancient artifact.
6) As #4, and the package contains three silk shirts, custom-tailored for a shapely female human. Upon receipt of the package, the female offers another assignment to the adventurers...
a) If a "Stargate" network placed its terminals no closer than 36 parsecs from each other, it would not violate the "Spirit of Traveller." Keep in mind that my intent was always to place these items on marginal worlds or in marginal regions of populated worlds, and never inside the Moot chambers, for example. Your thoughts, please?
b) Excerpt from 76 More Patrons, MCMLXVIth edition: What appears to be a middle-aged human male catches the attention of the adventurers. He is wearing a bowler hat, a 3-piece suit, and patent-leather shoes. He is carrying a bumbershoot in one hand, and a carpetbag in the other. He sports a neatly-trimmed mustache and round eyeglasses. He introduces himself as a Hiver, and offers the adventurers an assignment: deliver a wrapped parcel to a specific address on the other side of the extrality line, and return with another. They will be paid Cr1000 for their troubles. The outcome is:
1) The patron has been thouroughly manipulated into believing that he is a Hiver, and the assignment is legitimate.
2) The patron is merely working for a Hiver, and the assignment is legitimate.
3) The patron is thouroughly delusional, and the assignment is bogus.
4) The patron's real name is Parsifal Hiverson, he is a reconstructionist, and the package contains priceless artifacts from Terra's pre-starflight era.
5) As #4, and the package contains a priceless Ancient artifact.
6) As #4, and the package contains three silk shirts, custom-tailored for a shapely female human. Upon receipt of the package, the female offers another assignment to the adventurers...
Heretic, your stargates are certainly within the realm of what was intended for referee's using Book 3. You're creating a fundamentally different ATU where Books 1, 2, 3 work more or less the same. You could steal large swaths from the OTU as needed.
I don't see any reason why a Traveller fan should pitch a fit over this. It's just another ATU concept in the tradition of the Solar Triumvarite...
I don't see any reason why a Traveller fan should pitch a fit over this. It's just another ATU concept in the tradition of the Solar Triumvarite...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well for a start, that's a rather telling statement. If these critiques undermine your confidence in the tools in Traveller, that means you're ultimately unhappy with the tools you have - otherwise you wouldn't care about the criticism.
You seem to be blaming other people for pointing out problems that you'd either consciously ignored or not considered before.
Nobody is expecting anyone else to make the game 100% realistic in everything. Heck, it's always been other people saying "if you make one thing realistic, you have to make it all realistic" which is a total fallacy.
It seems you're missing the whole point of the thought exercise here - to make changes that would make things more realistic or sensible or coherent, while NOT eliminate the things that attracted people to the system in the first place.
So do I. I just don't accept that you can have one but not the other - it's quite possible to have both.
I think your response here typifies the main problem with having this sort of discussion - namely that people get over-defensive and read things into posts that aren't there. I've not once said here that anyone's campaigns are "illegitimate" or that what you've invested your time in is "dumb".
I think it's like a religious debate only in the sense that people seem to be entrenched in their beliefs about what the game should be (heck, they do call it "canon", after all). One of the reasons I started this topic was to try to get people to stop and think more rationally about what Traveller really is, and whether making certain types of changes to it would really change that at all. So far it's attracted some people who are interested in thinking about that - but it's also attracted some people who react pretty much as if I've offended their religious sensibilities too.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Assuming the classical StarGate (do we get a Carter with it ) the following set-up would likely result:
+ One stargate per sector with instant travell between gates
+ Maximum distance in a sector is 44 parsecs length wise, 32 width, 37 diagonal. So we can have around 1 gate/sector
+ So a J6 courier can reach a stargate in about 6-7 weeks from the sector capital at worst, around 3 is more realistic
+ Each Gate in a Galaxie sees all others so we can get the Sylea Sector gate and go there instantly.
+ Maximum Flight time again 6-7 weeks to Sylea with around 3 being more realistic
So we get a worst time of 14 and a best of 6 weeks from any Sector to Sylea. Compare that to the 40+ weeks it takes now. Granted, the way is only useabel for priority cargo and news but that is more than enough to massively change Traveller.
+ Norris will have Problems pulling of his two "Imperial Warrent" stunts in 1105 and 1118
+ News of enemy fleets approaching will out-distance the rather slow fleets by weeks changing whole "surprise deep raids"
+ Virus will spread like Wildfire
+ Dulinor will have major problems pulling of his post-coup escape and rally of forces
+ Strephy will not be away in the deep Periphery to meet the Psi-Chick Vision
And the gate worlds will not remain unimportant backwaters for long. They will become important regions of the local area. Maybe Shantytown style but important.
So unless you add some Worms, this can is better left close. Unless you want to play StarGate or ZbV. Those CAN be a lot of fun if you ditch the movie crews and change some background. Cossacks and Krauts anyone?
) the following set-up would likely result:+ One stargate per sector with instant travell between gates
+ Maximum distance in a sector is 44 parsecs length wise, 32 width, 37 diagonal. So we can have around 1 gate/sector
+ So a J6 courier can reach a stargate in about 6-7 weeks from the sector capital at worst, around 3 is more realistic
+ Each Gate in a Galaxie sees all others so we can get the Sylea Sector gate and go there instantly.
+ Maximum Flight time again 6-7 weeks to Sylea with around 3 being more realistic
So we get a worst time of 14 and a best of 6 weeks from any Sector to Sylea. Compare that to the 40+ weeks it takes now. Granted, the way is only useabel for priority cargo and news but that is more than enough to massively change Traveller.
+ Norris will have Problems pulling of his two "Imperial Warrent" stunts in 1105 and 1118
+ News of enemy fleets approaching will out-distance the rather slow fleets by weeks changing whole "surprise deep raids"
+ Virus will spread like Wildfire
+ Dulinor will have major problems pulling of his post-coup escape and rally of forces
+ Strephy will not be away in the deep Periphery to meet the Psi-Chick Vision
And the gate worlds will not remain unimportant backwaters for long. They will become important regions of the local area. Maybe Shantytown style but important.
So unless you add some Worms, this can is better left close. Unless you want to play StarGate or ZbV. Those CAN be a lot of fun if you ditch the movie crews and change some background. Cossacks and Krauts anyone?
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
They do exist though. Every time I propose trying to make something more realistic in the OTU, I get people saying "but that wouldn't be Traveller".
I don't know how many more times I have to say that this was a hypothetical example.
The fact that Hivers are big starfish or Aslan are cat-like isn't the thing that makes them cool. What people like about them are their culture and history and how they interact with others. Had they been defined initially as humans with those cultures, I suspect that few people would have thought they were less interesting.
</font>[/QUOTE]Disagree! Making the Aslan human makes the "JASC" - Just Another Samurai Clone. Same for the Hivers, welcome to the Illuminati. And Human KKree are called Newkirk Youth or PETAs. It is only through the combination with being another Alien race that they become interesting for me.
I only partially agreed. While the exact stellar type does not matter (actually few players really care) the light and environment are important. Logans Run works because of the enclosed place, Aliens work because there is no place to hide outside the base, the dual Suns of Kregen are a part of the whole etc.
You say that, but I don't think it does matter to most people. What you need is a Precursor race that left the odd ruin scattered around and who apparently destroyed a few planets in the process. Nobody in the Traveller setting even knows who Grandfather is.
</font>[/QUOTE]With a few minor changes I can drop the whole Precursor stuff. Reduce the HUMAN races in number and make the early colonists from Vland or drop them all except Solomanie, Vilanie and Zhodanie, make the Vagr simple Canine-looking like the Aslan and there you go. The human sub-races add nothing to the game.
Well first you just start with a statement saying that this wouldn't be Traveller. Then you dismiss the "backwater shift" that actually works perfectly well. How many scenarios do you know that require the players to be on a specific world? Yes, it's crafty, but most of the time it will actually work (plus it makes people realise that worlds really are actual planets with other settlements on them, not just one big startown they stop off at). You mention this core "feel" of traveller that is supposed to remain sacrosanct, but don't really define it... but it's quite possible to make these changes in a way that retains this "core feel" - it's just that people seem to be scared to admit or investigate this. </font>[/QUOTE]Size, travelling and travelling time are important to the Universe. There is no "backwater" if you have a starship, ships boat or an enclosed air/raft. So you either drop the tech and end up playing Milleniums End or you keep it and need the planets.
And if you drop travelling time, you drop newslag. And again, you change the universe. If I want live broadcast from Earth I play Babylon5 or Orion, not Traveller.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Bummer.
My problem is two-fold: I like both the Stargate and Traveller concepts equally (although Samantha Carter DOES tip the scales slightly in SGs favour).
In the SG universe, there are limitations on Stargate operations; 38-minute maximum on time, one-way matter transfer per use, enormous amounts of energy required, seismic events caused by activation that require inertial damping, et cetera. This coupled with the relative rarity of starships (an entire world's economy and resources are depleted to build even one Ha'Tak, for instance) and power sources to drive them (naquadah, naquadria, and zero-point modules), tends to isolate exploration teams from their bases of operations for extended periods. These limitations could be used to force the "Square Peg" Stargates into the "Round Hole" OTU.
In summary, Stargate just ain't Traveller, so using Stargates within the OTU would require such major modifications of the Stargate concept and/or severe limitations on their use, that they would no longer resemble the original concept.
Besides, Grandfather already invented a gate system, so why go to a lot of trouble to impose another?
Back to square one: I like both the Stargate and Traveller concepts equally.
Bummer.
My problem is two-fold: I like both the Stargate and Traveller concepts equally (although Samantha Carter DOES tip the scales slightly in SGs favour).
In the SG universe, there are limitations on Stargate operations; 38-minute maximum on time, one-way matter transfer per use, enormous amounts of energy required, seismic events caused by activation that require inertial damping, et cetera. This coupled with the relative rarity of starships (an entire world's economy and resources are depleted to build even one Ha'Tak, for instance) and power sources to drive them (naquadah, naquadria, and zero-point modules), tends to isolate exploration teams from their bases of operations for extended periods. These limitations could be used to force the "Square Peg" Stargates into the "Round Hole" OTU.
In summary, Stargate just ain't Traveller, so using Stargates within the OTU would require such major modifications of the Stargate concept and/or severe limitations on their use, that they would no longer resemble the original concept.
Besides, Grandfather already invented a gate system, so why go to a lot of trouble to impose another?
Back to square one: I like both the Stargate and Traveller concepts equally.
Bummer.
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