Jump 1 ships are pretty useless

[Murph]

Jump one ships are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Unless there is a main, you are stuck, and for adventuring they are pretty worthless overall since you cannot go anywhere. J-2 is a little better, but I think the optimum for the most part is J-3 or even J-4 which allows greater mobility which an adventuring party needs.

If you drop the jump fuel usage from 10% to 5% then even the Free Trader becomes somewhat more useful in the grand scheme of things. The Fat Trader becomes a much more useful ship and able to be used in a better manner than when it was just J-1. With a TL 15 Imperium, I don't see J-1 being used that much, since most ships would wear out at 100-150 years, and need to be scrapped.

So I see J-3 being the more common drive in use for the merchant/free traders of the Imperium. Comments?

 

[Jame]

I kind of agree, though I do wonder why jump drive tonnages don't go down. I think jump 2 would be standard though.

Back in 2003 I got a copy of T4 for my birthday and generated a Noble who mustered with a yacht, and I wondered why the type y was only jump 1. Redesigning it in CT Book 2 is actually how I figured out how to use the ship design sequence.

 

[GypsyComet]

You are raising at least two separate issues and/or changes here.

Jump one ships are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Unless there is a main, you are stuck, and for adventuring they are pretty worthless overall since you cannot go anywhere.

In the grand scheme of things, there are plenty of mains and clusters on the map, allowing J1 ships to carry local cargos.

J-2 is a little better, but I think the optimum for the most part is J-3 or even J-4 which allows greater mobility which an adventuring party needs.

"Adventurers" are not the core of commerce. J1 ships are for locally cost-efficient commerce. "Adventurers" will indeed want something faster.

If you drop the jump fuel usage from 10% to 5%

Realizing that this is a CT thread, you are suggesting fuel usage more like MT, which is 5% + Jn x5% (or 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, and 35%, respectively for J1 through 6)

then even the Free Trader becomes somewhat more useful in the grand scheme of things. The Fat Trader becomes a much more useful ship and able to be used in a better manner than when it was just J-1.

So you are really changing only fuel efficiency and leaving the ships as designed aside from larger drives. The problem here is that you are assuming that merchants are all adventurers who want to roam across as much of the Imperium (or whatever) as they can reach. The mundane reality is that there will be money to be made in J1 clusters, and a ship that doesn't need to dedicate space to fuel for longer jumps *won't be built for longer jumps*.

With a TL 15 Imperium, I don't see J-1 being used that much, since most ships would wear out at 100-150 years, and need to be scrapped.

A ship that pays for itself at 40 years of age and has 60 to 90 years of pure gravy is actually VERY attractive.

So I see J-3 being the more common drive in use for the merchant/free traders of the Imperium.

Cargo efficiency will always be maximized for the environment the ship operates in. If a ship needs J2 or J3 to survive in a particular region (such as Gateway), then ships in that area will be built that way. Ships in large rich clusters don't need more than J1 99% of the time, and they can just get collapsable tanks for that 1%.

The big carriers operate under different financial rules. They are not speculating on the same scale or with the same risks as the little fringe merchants. They often specialize in long-distance commerce in bulk, and have J4 ships as a matter of course. They are not, however, "adventurers". They run set routes between High Pops and other economic powerhouses without variation; a given Bulk Freighter may see only three or four systems for its entire working lifespan, and its masters care nothing for any systems that are not on that route. There are no side jobs, no bank vacations, and no unplanned risks with the Company's ship.

 

[McPerth]

Jump one ships are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Unless there is a main, you are stuck, and for adventuring they are pretty worthless overall since you cannot go anywhere. J-2 is a little better, but I think the optimum for the most part is J-3 or even J-4 which allows greater mobility which an adventuring party needs.

If you drop the jump fuel usage from 10% to 5% then even the Free Trader becomes somewhat more useful in the grand scheme of things. The Fat Trader becomes a much more useful ship and able to be used in a better manner than when it was just J-1. With a TL 15 Imperium, I don't see J-1 being used that much, since most ships would wear out at 100-150 years, and need to be scrapped.

So I see J-3 being the more common drive in use for the merchant/free traders of the Imperium. Comments?

And even so, most threads about ship's economics I've read in this board show J1 as the most profitable for tramp freighters (at least in most traveller versions, where the travel price is per jump, not per parsec, in MgT taht may vary)...

I once read somewhere (I think it was a TD, but I cannot recall for sure) that the Imperium favours J1 in order to forcé ships to stop in systems that would otherwise be skipped, with the hope that this will bring some trade to them (if you must stop there anyway, you can try to take some profit from your stop, even if it would be marginal).

If you drop the jump fuel usage from 10% to 5% then even the Free Trader becomes somewhat more useful in the grand scheme of things. The Fat Trader becomes a much more useful ship and able to be used in a better manner than when it was just J-1.

I've not run the numbers, but my take is that lowering the fuel needs to Jn x 5% will favor more the higher jump ships, as they would need less fuel and also have more payload (and so cargo space). In fact, in MT, where fuel needs were (Jn+1)x5%, and so a J4 ship needed only 25% fuel (instead of the 40% in other versions) a J4 could be profitable, something unlikely at most with Jn x 10% fuel needs...

 

[rancke]

And even so, most threads about ship's economics I've read in this board show J1 as the most profitable for tramp freighters (at least in most traveller versions, where the travel price is per jump, not per parsec, in MgT taht may vary)...

The per jump travel price only makes sense as a game artifact, and there are canonical examples both of NPCs trying to get stuff transported at a discount and offering bonus payments.

Absent special circumstances, like monopolies or boom/bust situations, freighters and liners will charge what it costs to transport goods or passengers plus a reasonable profit. Which makes J1 cheapest across one parsec, J2 or J3 cheapest along distances above one parsec (depends on the astrography) and J4 not so much more expensive that it isn't competitive for time-sensitive deliveries (like passengers). Given the right astrography J4 can even be cheapest.

I once read somewhere (I think it was a TD, but I cannot recall for sure) that the Imperium favours J1 in order to forcé ships to stop in systems that would otherwise be skipped, with the hope that this will bring some trade to them (if you must stop there anyway, you can try to take some profit from your stop, even if it would be marginal).

A world will get the trade it generates. A couple of thousand people just won't generate enough trade to get more than a couple of visits from Trader Eneri every year. But those visits it will get.

I've not run the numbers, but my take is that lowering the fuel needs to Jn x 5% will favor more the higher jump ships, as they would need less fuel and also have more payload (and so cargo space). In fact, in MT, where fuel needs were (Jn+1)x5%, and so a J4 ship needed only 25% fuel (instead of the 40% in other versions) a J4 could be profitable, something unlikely at most with Jn x 10% fuel needs...

Any ship can be profitable. It just needs to charge the true expenses plus a profit. And if it isn't profitable, someone will have to make up the difference or the ship just won't fly.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

Jump one ships are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Unless there is a main, you are stuck, and for adventuring they are pretty worthless overall since you cannot go anywhere. J-2 is a little better, but I think the optimum for the most part is J-3 or even J-4 which allows greater mobility which an adventuring party needs.

If you drop the jump fuel usage from 10% to 5% then even the Free Trader becomes somewhat more useful in the grand scheme of things. The Fat Trader becomes a much more useful ship and able to be used in a better manner than when it was just J-1. With a TL 15 Imperium, I don't see J-1 being used that much, since most ships would wear out at 100-150 years, and need to be scrapped.

So I see J-3 being the more common drive in use for the merchant/free traders of the Imperium. Comments?

Saying Jump-1 ships are useless is about on par with saying that a 1500 ton coaster for use in the Aegean Sea among the Greek islands or in the Indonesian Archipelago is useless because it cannot cross either the Atlantic or Pacific. You are demanding a ship that your players can use to travel all over the Imperium, albeit very slowly because of the limitations of the Jump drive to one jump a week and then refueling. The Jump-1 Free Trader is the local delivery vessel for systems within Jump-1 of a main route. I have 50 tons of cargo I need delivered to the next system within two weeks. The jillion-dTon megaliners are not interested in cargo shipments of less that 5000 tons and sneer at little guys like me. Therein comes the 200 dTon Jump-1 Free Trader, which picks up my 50 ton cargo and delivers it to the next system. I am happy, the Free Trader is happy. and the big boys are happy to not have to fool around with piddling quantities of cargo.

The main reason that players can get away with running around in Jump-3 ships is the ludicrously low amount of money needed to set aside from ship maintenance, and the fact that NO INSURANCE exists in the game. If there were realistic maintenance costs, and that nasty item of insurance, your players would be lucking to have a Jump-1 ship or maybe a retired Scout ship to use. Figuring that you have a 1 in 36 chance of misjump depending on the condition and fuel of the ship, a minimum insurance charge for each jump should be 3% of the cost of the ship and cargo, or at least the cost of the cargo. I use a charge of 5% a year based on the replacement cost of the ship for ship insurance, plus 5% per jump for cargo insurance, and a flat 5000 Credit charge per year per normally carried crew member. Passenger buy their own insurance. The 5000 Credits buys a 100,000 Credit life insurance policy for each crew member, good for one year.

Throw something like those costs into your ship expenses and then see how your players like it. Ships seem to get handed to players at about the same rate as major magic items in Monty Hall dungeons.

 

[Hovtej]

Saying Jump-1 ships are useless is about on par with saying that a 1500 ton coaster for use in the Aegean Sea among the Greek islands or in the Indonesian Archipelago is useless because it cannot cross either the Atlantic or Pacific. You are demanding a ship that your players can use to travel all over the Imperium, albeit very slowly because of the limitations of the Jump drive to one jump a week and then refueling. The Jump-1 Free Trader is the local delivery vessel for systems within Jump-1 of a main route. I have 50 tons of cargo I need delivered to the next system within two weeks. The jillion-dTon megaliners are not interested in cargo shipments of less that 5000 tons and sneer at little guys like me. Therein comes the 200 dTon Jump-1 Free Trader, which picks up my 50 ton cargo and delivers it to the next system. I am happy, the Free Trader is happy. and the big boys are happy to not have to fool around with piddling quantities of cargo.

I agree completely! If you look at the number of world's within J-1 (or even J-2) within the primary worlds along the mains there is a a lot of opportunity for transferring cargo or messages for J-1 ships even on the spur of the moment consignments. These off main worlds are often more adventurous and lucrative than the major worlds on the mains.

 

[Hovtej]

These off main worlds are often more adventurous and lucrative than the major worlds on the mains.

Also less competition from the mega-corporations with mega-ton ships!

 

[samuelvss]

While this thread has differentiated between what's good for adventuring, and the economics of the free trader Mains, I would say I think having a party limited by their plain old free trader, on which they owe too much, is great fun. Free Trader's gotta trade, or get creative....

 

[creativehum]

Comments?

The last seven posts have covered so much of what there is to say. The only other point I would make, specific to my own view of how to set up the game, is this:

How far do the PCs in an actual RPG campaign really need to travel? I understand that the creation of the Spinward Marches and then the Third Imperium provides lots of empty space to get across -- and thus the assumption that the point of a starship is to get the PCs across all that empty space.

But as I've pointed out elsewhere, the 1997 edition of Book 2: Worlds & Adventures and Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (1981) assume that one or two subsectors will provide more than enough material to begin a campaign. Later editions of the Classic Traveller rules (the 1981 edition of Book 3, The Traveller Book, Starter Traveller) state that a sector formed of 16 subsectors is "the largest size practical for a continuing Traveller campaign." (Note that the text doesn't say "make a setting of 16 subsectors." It says 16 is the max -- with anything less than that being suitable as well.)

If one were to start with one or two subsectors, the Referee and Players are already going to be focused in on a geographical area much more compact than we're used to thinking about when it comes to Traveller.

It means really building out with care those worlds, building interesting politics and conflicts right there in those 30 to 80 worlds. And in those worlds there would be at least one cluster or main that could serve as a starting point for adventures for PCs on a Jump-1 ship. In other words, a Jump-1 ship is entirely practical for RPG play and the needs of the PCs.

Now, the PCs might, in time, acquire a Jump-2 ship... which would then expand the geography of travel and adventure some more. But it would most likely help keep the game focused on a subsector -- or two, three, or four. But in any of these cases, the game would still be focused on a limited number of worlds, really giving those worlds their due.

The notion that a Jump-1 ship is useless blows past the fact that there's no need to rush past so many worlds in an effort to get over there, and blows past the basic assumptions of the game set up settings and play.

That's all. Just wanted to add that.

 

[Jame]

I kind of agree, though I do wonder why jump drive tonnages don't go down. I think jump 2 would be standard though.

Back in 2003 I got a copy of T4 for my birthday and generated a Noble who mustered with a yacht, and I wondered why the type y was only jump 1. Redesigning it in CT Book 2 is actually how I figured out how to use the ship design sequence.

I think I do wonder why the Yacht only has Jump 1 when it is "a noble's plaything" that is used to entertain people. I would expect a noble to have a better drive for it to the point that it would dispense with small craft.

I suppose one could be pressed into scout service as written.

 

[Timerover51]

I think I do wonder why the Yacht only has Jump 1 when it is "a noble's plaything" that is used to entertain people. I would expect a noble to have a better drive for it to the point that it would dispense with small craft.

I suppose one could be pressed into scout service as written.

Drawing on a analogy from this world, and the incredibly expensive play toy yachts some of the mega-rich have, that stay tied up in Monaco, or Marseilles, or Nice, or Naples, and never move beyond being sailed to get there. A yacht like that is a way of proclaiming that the owner is very rich, and to make the plebeians like you and me envious. Personally, I view the owners of those things as idiots.

 

[Hovtej]

Drawing on a analogy from this world, and the incredibly expensive play toy yachts some of the mega-rich have, that stay tied up in Monaco, or Marseilles, or Nice, or Naples, and never move beyond being sailed to get there.

Not only the mega-rich. I have a friend who had a live-aboard boat, not quite a "yacht", in an anchorage on the Charles River in Boston. He complained a lot about the other live-aboard boats, covered in insolation that could never sail again.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Yacht has varied quite a bit over the editions, aside from its really odd collection of subcraft.

Also, even though it is at the bottom of the list in Traveller terms, 1g constant is still a LOT of thrust. It is plenty to enable straight-line navigation for any but the innermost worlds (of which Mercury is apparently a slowpoke example).

 

[Shonner]

So I see J-3 being the more common drive in use for the merchant/free traders of the Imperium. Comments?

Action heroes tend not to drive Pintos.

 

[Condottiere]

Sometimes it's just cheaper to live onboard boat than own actual real estate and pay property tax.

Another dodge is to move outside national maritime borders, only coming ashore on occasion, and dispute as to whether his host country can tax him.

 

[simonh]

I suppose it depends what (and who) the standard Yacht is for. If most J-1 Yach owners are planetary nobles, for them having any kind of jump capable ship will likely put them a cut above the rest of their peers. Astrography permitting, they can visit the nearest 3-6 systems on the local strentch of a main for holidays of a few months at a time whenever they like. I think this is the common case the Type-Y is designed for.

For a subsector noble or greater, a J-1 Yacht would make travel far too slow to be practical. Someone with those sorts of responsibilities can't afford to be virtualy uncontactable for the many months it would take to travel between subsector capitals by J-1, and they'd be hamstrung by the twists and turns of the connecting main, if there even is one. On the other hand, if they're this important, they will likely have their own staff traveling with them, probably an Imperial guard detachment and possibly even courier ships on hand to send orders to distant systems. For someone commanding a subsector or more, a yach of any kind is pretty useless. What they need is a proper command ship. Foir them interstellar travel isn't an idle luxury, it's their day job.

So a yacht with greater than J-1 needs to fit into the gap between planetary nobles that want to go on the occasional jaunt, for whom J-1 is quite sufficient, and interplanetary nobles for whom an interstellar Yacht of any kind would be a distraction. Surely such a gap does exist. Some planetary nobles might be nobles on a planet J-2 form the nearest system, or for whom J-1 just doesn't give them access to places they want to be able to go. There might also be interplanetary nobles controlling a handful of systems for whom J-2 or J-3 might be optimal. Also oen of the big shots might fancy a J-2+ yacht as a vanity item.

So I think in a typical subsector, depending on astrography, there might be a dozen or more planetary nobles for whom a J-1 yacht would be affordable and quite addequate, a handful of planetary nobles who would prefer or need a J-2+ variant and maybe one or two interplanetary nobles that could find a use for a J-2 or J-3 model.

I think all those arguments apply just as well to politicians and business leaders.

Simon Hibbs

 

[simonh]

A world will get the trade it generates. A couple of thousand people just won't generate enough trade to get more than a couple of visits from Trader Eneri every year. But those visits it will get.

I don't think there's any law of the universe that makes this so. Put yourself in the shoes of a tramp trader captain. There's a world J-1 away, but it's off the main route and has a low population. If another tramp has visited that system recently, it's highly unlikely they will have anything left you'd want to buy or particularly need anything you have to sell, and there's no way for you to know if that's happened or not. If there is any kind of reasonable cargo available to you for another destination, why would you take that risk?

Sure, if there aren't any good alternatives you might take a punt on the off chance, but it's going to be largely down to random chance. For a system that on average gets say 3 tramp traders drop by per year, some years they may get visits from 5 or 6 and other times they might not get any at all for over a year. For a small population with any kind of reliance on anything offworld, that could be disastrous. Some kind of incentive to encourage regular visits is going to be a valuable insurance policy against that sort of thing happening.

Simon Hibbs

 

[rancke]

I suppose it depends what (and who) the standard Yacht is for. If most J-1 Yach owners are planetary nobles, for them having any kind of jump capable ship will likely put them a cut above the rest of their peers. Astrography permitting, they can visit the nearest 3-6 systems on the local strentch of a main for holidays of a few months at a time whenever they like. I think this is the common case the Type-Y is designed for.

The Type Y has fuel tankage for two consecutive jumps, so it is not confined to its home cluster or the local main. The main problem is, as you say, that it takes a long time to get to far places. I'd expect its J2 counterpart to be more popular, but it will cost MCr8 more, so there would definitely be a niche market for the plain J1 version.

So a yacht with greater than J-1 needs to fit into the gap between planetary nobles that want to go on the occasional jaunt, for whom J-1 is quite sufficient, and interplanetary nobles for whom an interstellar Yacht of any kind would be a distraction.

As an aside, there would be far more commoner billionaires buying yachts than there would be nobles.

So I think in a typical subsector, depending on astrography, there might be a dozen or more planetary nobles for whom a J-1 yacht would be affordable and quite addequate, a handful of planetary nobles who would prefer or need a J-2+ variant and maybe one or two interplanetary nobles that could find a use for a J-2 or J-3 model.

A high-tech high-population world would have scores of billionaires who could afford huge J6 yachts. I think there would be yachts of every size and performance from the Type Y to cruiser-sized J6 yachts.

I think all those arguments apply just as well to politicians and business leaders.

Yes, indeed. Let's not forget the yachts paid for by other people's money.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Note that in T5, the Yacht described in the ships lists is 500dton, Jump-2, and 4g.

In MT, the 200dton Yacht (due to the differences in the ship construction rules for the ruleset) was Jump-4 and 4g.

I have seen 1 or 2 yachts described (for MT and/or MgT) that were 100dton vessels.

And a slightly converted 200dton Safari ship makes a good "common-man's yacht".