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Jump 1 ships are pretty useless

The Imperium taxes member worlds - that's a given.

But those member worlds will also tax their own citizens. A superrich individual may find it advantageous to pay direct taxation to the Imperium due to living in Imperial owned space rather than paying local taxation.
No, I hadn't grasped that wrinkle. My knee-jerk response was to say that the Imperium wouldn't tax individuals at all, but after thinking it over I don't see why it couldn't, as long as the number was manageable and the money gained was worth while. I don't even see the need to live in space. If the Imperium is willing to nark off its members worlds by giving certain individuals tax protection, all it has to do is confer the status on them by Imperial decree. And that cuts both ways, of course. If the Imperium don't want to nark off its member worlds, it doesn't have to give anyone special tax status even if they live in outer space.

Apropos, IMTU all Imperial salaries, pensions and similar payments are exempt from being taxed by member worlds. This is part of the membership charter boilerplate.


Hans
 
I think when we consider the limitations of a jump-1 ship a Bad Thing, we've lost sight of a key part of Traveller. Travel is the adventure.

Range ain't everything

Someone earlier asked "how far do you need to travel" in order to have an adventure. Whole campaigns have been run on one world. Plenty of adventures can be had in one system (Firefly).

Astrography was designed with Jump-1 in mind

As for astrography being inconvenient to jump-1 ships: that's by design. You might as well rewrite the star charts, giving each hex a width of about two parsecs. That would make the topography much easier for a jump-1 ship, and you don't have to redesign all the ships.

Meaningful ship design

And as for fuel requirements being inconvenient to ships: that, too, is by design. The rule is that you can't have everything you want. You have to make meaningful decisions. What do you want more, cargo, range, equipment, small craft, what? You can't have it all. (Granted, tech level can tweak this a bit, but still, meaningful choices must be made).

The Bottomless Pit of Performance

The other thing I think of is, today's jump-2 is tomorrow's jump-1. Say the jump-1 ships are outlawed, so now all the base models are jump-2. After a short period of time, that won't be enough -- the FAR trader is jump-3 or jump-4, not some piddly slow bottom-of-the-barrel jump-2.

And then you re-base things to jump-3 or jump-4, and jump-6 becomes the "step up" for the far trader. Then you need jump-8, jump-9, and so on.

I suspect the growth of the setting from one subsector to umpteen sectors is another symptom of this need for more more more more more more more.

Where does it end? It ends when you've reached Star Wars, I suppose, and everything moves at the "speed of plot".

Oh, I guess I'm ranting a bit. Sorry about that, but the game was put together that way to suggest possible goals for players.
 
I think when we consider the limitations of a jump-1 ship a Bad Thing, we've lost sight of a key part of Traveller. Travel is the adventure.
Unless we have adventures in a single system, a possibility you yourself bring up.

Astrography was designed with Jump-1 in mind

As for astrography being inconvenient to jump-1 ships: that's by design.
That's almost certainly true, but GDW flubbed that design by making a third of all systems unable to support tramp traders (low populations produce low trade volumes). And it doesn't help that ship design makes J2 and J3 cheaper than J1.

Also, I would have liked to be able to flit around from one end of Charted Space to the other. A trip to Old Earth and back, stopping off at Capital on the way would be a nice option. As it is, a trip from Regina to Mora is not something to be undertaken lightly1. This last bit is very much YMMV, of course.
1 Especially not in a J1 ship. :p
You might as well rewrite the star charts, giving each hex a width of about two parsecs. That would make the topography much easier for a jump-1 ship, and you don't have to redesign all the ships.
I don't understand that.

The Bottomless Pit of Performance

The other thing I think of is, today's jump-2 is tomorrow's jump-1. Say the jump-1 ships are outlawed, so now all the base models are jump-2. After a short period of time, that won't be enough -- the FAR trader is jump-3 or jump-4, not some piddly slow bottom-of-the-barrel jump-2.
With J2 you skip half the boring worlds. With J3 you skip almost all of them.

Though for the players there's very little difference. If you do as I suggested in an earlier post and give the PCs an old, paid-up J1 ship, you can get across three parsecs almost as fast as you can with a J3 ship. "You leave Boughene and jump to Pixie. Here you refuel and fill you collapsible tank too. You jump on to deep space and then jump on to Kinorb, arriving on 220-1105."

Takes about two minutes of game time, not very much longer than "You jump from Boughene to Kinorb, arriving on 200-1105.

The only significant difference is that the PCs get 20 days older with the first option.

And then you re-base things to jump-3 or jump-4, and jump-6 becomes the "step up" for the far trader. Then you need jump-8, jump-9, and so on.
Well, with a J10 drive a trip to Terra becomes a feasible trip.

I suspect the growth of the setting from one subsector to umpteen sectors is another symptom of this need for more more more more more more more.
You mean the process that started with Supplement 3?


Hans
 
I think when we consider the limitations of a jump-1 ship a Bad Thing, we've lost sight of a key part of Traveller. Travel is the adventure.

Range ain't everything

Someone earlier asked "how far do you need to travel" in order to have an adventure. Whole campaigns have been run on one world. Plenty of adventures can be had in one system (Firefly).

Astrography was designed with Jump-1 in mind

As for astrography being inconvenient to jump-1 ships: that's by design. You might as well rewrite the star charts, giving each hex a width of about two parsecs. That would make the topography much easier for a jump-1 ship, and you don't have to redesign all the ships.

Meaningful ship design

And as for fuel requirements being inconvenient to ships: that, too, is by design. The rule is that you can't have everything you want. You have to make meaningful decisions. What do you want more, cargo, range, equipment, small craft, what? You can't have it all. (Granted, tech level can tweak this a bit, but still, meaningful choices must be made).

The Bottomless Pit of Performance

The other thing I think of is, today's jump-2 is tomorrow's jump-1. Say the jump-1 ships are outlawed, so now all the base models are jump-2. After a short period of time, that won't be enough -- the FAR trader is jump-3 or jump-4, not some piddly slow bottom-of-the-barrel jump-2.

And then you re-base things to jump-3 or jump-4, and jump-6 becomes the "step up" for the far trader. Then you need jump-8, jump-9, and so on.

I suspect the growth of the setting from one subsector to umpteen sectors is another symptom of this need for more more more more more more more.

Where does it end? It ends when you've reached Star Wars, I suppose, and everything moves at the "speed of plot".

Oh, I guess I'm ranting a bit. Sorry about that, but the game was put together that way to suggest possible goals for players.

You forgot that limiting Jump length also gives some geography to space. It means that you have critical choke points to get from one region to another, or in the case of Terra, Jump-2 severely limits where an attacking force can start from.

In H. Beam Piper's Space Viking, a hyperdrive ship covers 1 light year an hour, with no chance of intercept while in hyperspace. That is over 51 parsecs a week, and voyages can last considerably longer than a week. The end result of that is no geography to space, and no planets with any real military significance, as you can be hit from a very long ways away.

From Gram to Tanith in Space Viking is 920 parsecs, done in a single trip of 125 days. That would take a Jump-6 ship, assuming continuous Jump-6 jumps, with no refueling and a Jump a week, 153 weeks to cover, or about 3 years. More realistically under Traveller rules, it would take about 450 weeks, assuming a Jump-4 average every two weeks.
 
You forgot that limiting Jump length also gives some geography to space. It means that you have critical choke points to get from one region to another, or in the case of Terra, Jump-2 severely limits where an attacking force can start from.


So true.

What you get, then, is several variations in one game. You get the jump-1 map, which has "geography". Jump-2 smooths out the rough edges a bit -- as Hans says "you skip the boring worlds". By the time you're at Jump-10, interstellar space is significantly different -- an autobahn model instead of a hodgepodge of winding 2-lane roads.
 
A muzzle loading single shot black powder rifle is pretty useless compared to a 30+ round auto-firing assault rifle but hey thats all that was available at some time in history.
 
A muzzle loading single shot black powder rifle is pretty useless compared to a 30+ round auto-firing assault rifle but hey thats all that was available at some time in history.

That would depend on who was firing each given weapon. A Davy Crockett with the muzzle-loader would be far more effective than the average civilian firing the assault rifle. I would happy take a 7.62mm M-14 semi-automatic rifle over an auto-firing M16 any day, or even a bolt-action .30-06 Springfield over the M16.
 
I think what robject is saying is, why should any worlds be boring?

Simon Hibbs

I was curious about this, too.

Then I realized, if one's cup of tea is to travel across dozens and dozens of parsecs, then there would be no need to make the hundreds of worlds the PCs were passing interesting. Hans has his ambitions for a setting and a game and they involve lots of worlds that aren't interesting, if only for practical reasons.

On another note from robject's post: His point that one world can be used for a whole campaign is there as an example of magnitude. If one world can be the setting of a whole campaign, wouldn't a cluster of six to eight worlds be more than enough to keep a J1 ship game going for a while? Certainly that wouldn't interest some people (those who want a game where PCs travel from frontier to government capital, for example). But if the worlds are interesting and detailed enough, months upon months of play (if not longer) would be available. And if the politics and social situation were set up right travel between the worlds would be a very important part of the setting.
 
I think what robject is saying is, why should any worlds be boring?
* Because some worlds don't inspire me to come up with interesting stuff and the available canon about them is boring.

* Because the current adventure involves a trip to a world far away.

* Because the next adventure starts on a world far away.

* Because the players have already been there before.


Hans
 
I was curious about this, too.

Then I realized, if one's cup of tea is to travel across dozens and dozens of parsecs, then there would be no need to make the hundreds of worlds the PCs were passing interesting.
Well, if you have the time and creativity to detail hundreds of worlds, more power to you. Personally, I found it a struggle to detail even a subsector's worth of worlds despite having partners who did two thirds of the work.

(And even then there were, of course, people who disliked some of what we came up with.)
Hans has his ambitions for a setting and a game and they involve lots of worlds that aren't interesting, if only for practical reasons.
Actually, unless an adventure requires being set elsewhere, I try to find some place in Regina Subsector, or at least the Duchy of Regina, to put it.

Even so, if the PCs are on Efate and need to get to Regina, the players will want the journey via Alell, Whanga, Knorbes, Forboldn, and Hefry over as fast as possible, even if Alell, Knorbes, and Forboldn are chock full of adventuring potential.

On another note from robject's post: His point that one world can be used for a whole campaign is there as an example of magnitude. If one world can be the setting of a whole campaign, wouldn't a cluster of six to eight worlds be more than enough to keep a J1 ship game going for a while? Certainly that wouldn't interest some people (those who want a game where PCs travel from frontier to government capital, for example). But if the worlds are interesting and detailed enough, months upon months of play (if not longer) would be available. And if the politics and social situation were set up right travel between the worlds would be a very important part of the setting.
Certainly this is possible. But it's like the recipe for roast moose (Step one: Catch a moose): First you have to come up with six to eight interesting and detailed worlds where the politics and social situation is set up right.

And even if you have a cluster as tight as can be:

* *
* * *
* *

In nearly half the cases where travel to another system is important, a J1 ship will lose out in any race with a J2 ship.


Hans
 
In nearly half the cases where travel to another system is important, a J1 ship will lose out in any race with a J2 ship.

And that enriches Traveller games, regardless of setting. The J1 experience is quite different than the J2 experience. Take the same players and the same subsector, and you have two very different games.

Then give them a patrol cruiser, and they have a third game altogether.

Then give them a Gazelle. Fourth game.

Same subsector.
 
Well, if you have the time and creativity to detail hundreds of worlds, more power to you. Personally, I found it a struggle to detail even a subsector's worth of worlds despite having partners who did two thirds of the work.

I have always seen this as a design flaw of the OTU; many worlds appear to have been colonized simply because the major worlds are so damned far apart and intermediate destinations seemed to be therefore required.

There are actually two issues I can see with the 3I: most of it is comprised of relative backwaters because it is too big compared to its domain-capital-centric politics, and because it is so big, there are no real external frontiers (just internal ones that are centuries old and still "developing worlds").

The flip side of all this is that even if you use the fudge I rely upon IMTU -- namely, charging cargo and passage rates per parsec rather than "per Jump" -- you still cannot make an economically self-supporting J-3-or-more starship work without a subsidy, once you move off the original route and start free trading.

IMTU, if a private- or corporate-owned starship is J-3 or more, governments (and starport authorities and insurers) assume by default that it is some sort of paramilitary vessel, because it sure ain't going to be hauling freight and tourists around to make ends meet.
 
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If you look at a Traveller setting as a process then the J1 ships makes sense, create a lot of opportunities and doesn't have to be limiting because the J1 slice of space is effectively a *historical layer* which can have later historical layers over the top of it and you can choose which layer to adventure in.

Imagine the early colonization phase where the species in question only has J1 and say the only worlds where large numbers of people will voluntarily move to and start families (as opposed to work based sites like mining colonies) are the prime systems with just the right size, gravity, atmosphere etc then that automatically gives you the basis for two later historical layers.

Given those starting rules the prime systems within n parsecs of the home world develop into large colonies while the less prime systems serve as truck stops along the routes to the prime systems. The truck stop systems might still develop but often to a much lesser degree and some always remain as just truck stops on the way between the prime systems. That's the first layer. When higher Jn ships are developed a lot of those J1 systems get bypassed but they're still there. This more or less automatically creates a universe with two layers: the older J1 layer and the new J3-J4 layer connecting the prime systems bypassing a lot of the older J1 layer (but not all).

The players can then adventure in either the J1 layer or the J3 layer. They can travel along the J1 layer bumping into adventures or travel along the J3 to specific locations.

#

But yes, if you want the players to adventure in the J3 layer then the J3 layer would need its J3 equivalent of Scout and Free Trader.

For example
200 dtons Fast Trader
C engines for J3, 3G (35)
fuel 60 + 30 (90)
bridge + model 4 + 2 x hard points (26)
= 151 dtons
4 x fixed SRs
4 x adjustable wall SRs (can be turned into cargo space)
= 167/183
so 17 dtons cargo (or 33 dtons if small crew)

(standard crew: pilot, engineer, medic, gunner)

originally a Scout Service design

scout version:
either a) small away team (up to 4) version where the crew and ship are transport for the actual away team to the destination and the away team's assigned equipment, vehicle etc are in the cargo bay or b) large away team (up to 8) where the ship is the transport

commercial version:
copied commercially to carry small, valuable cargoes as fast as possible (at the time) so generally used with a small crew (pilot, engineer, medic and gunner) and 33 dtons cargo

also used by smugglers and speculative traders, often given names of fast earth birds

away team ship:
used by commercial organisations as away team ships in the same way as the scout service. The Regina branch of the Pinkerton Investigative Services Agency for example might have a bunch of them.
 
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Well, if you have the time and creativity to detail hundreds of worlds, more power to you. Personally, I found it a struggle to detail even a subsector's worth of worlds...
Oh, absolutely. That's why I would never advocate trying.

I mean, I did, as a teenager, after I bought Supplement 3. Because that's how I thought you were supposed to do it. That's why going back and looking at the text of Books 1-3 in both the '77 and '81 editions had been so valuable for me. I've been able to dig out what the game was designed to do before the game became about selling more game setting material. (Or, at least, what I see the game was designed to do.)

And in the '77 edition of Book 3: Worlds and Adventures and in Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller, it is stated clearly the Referee should create one, at most two, subsectors. As you state, even a subsector full of worlds is still a challenge. But it is manageable.[/QUOTE]


Actually, unless an adventure requires being set elsewhere, I try to find some place in Regina Subsector, or at least the Duchy of Regina, to put it.
My mistake. I was going off your mention of a cross-Impeium tour in a previous post.


In nearly half the cases where travel to another system is important, a J1 ship will lose out in any race with a J2 ship.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I mean, it's a fact, and it's true. But what are getting at? Are you telling me that a J2 is more efficient in covering space than a J1 ship? Because full disclosure: I know that.

Since I'm not sure what the point is, I hesitate to reply. But I'm an idiot, so I will anyway:

Yes, J1 is less efficient for travel than J2. That is by design, and in the design because the game is created for an RPG experience. The acquisition of goods and new technology on the part of the Player Characters is part of the reward system in Traveller.

A campaign might start with the PCs locked in a cluster of worlds in a J1 ship. But then they acquire new wealth/technology/patrons and they then get to go to J2 routes. This is comparable to having early RPG players start in a Level 1 dungeon, and then find the means to get to level 2, and so on. Several early Traveller adventures were built with the explicit reward of advancing Jump capability for the players. This may or may not be your thing... but it was definitely built on purpose.

As for the in-fiction fact that some ships are better than other ships... Well, yes. But that doesn't mean the PCs (in my view at least) should always be working at the most efficient technology available. The fact that in Basic Traveller the core, consistent conceit of the game is that communication is limited to travel, and travel is limited to what Jump technology allows. There are limits, and limits suck. The limits have implications -- about travel, communication, how governments across star systems can work, and more. And these limits, in my view, is a feature, not a bug.

I like these limits. They cause friction for the PCs. Yes, they would like to get to wherever they have to go faster. But time, distance, and technology cause trouble on this front. The Referee can either say, "No problem, you arrive." Or he can say, "The bad guys have caught up to you in a system half way to your destination system." This is all available and good.

Here's a thing I've been trying to articulate for a while, but I can't quite find the phrasing. I'm not saying you are doing this Hans, but a lot of this thread touches on it:

In talking about Traveller settings, theres seems to be (I might be wrong) an underlying assumption that if there is a more efficient way for things to work in a Traveller setting, that way should be used and should be the default setting detail.

Thus we have threads that don't say, "J1 Ships are less efficient than J2 ships," but "J1 Ships are Useless." Which I can't fathom at all. If a J1 ship is what the PCs have, it's very useful... and what they do with it is what play is about.

But it is not this thread alone. How the government is structured in Third Imperium so that the vast distances don't matter that much through the Xboat system, the desire to get rid of the dangerous Low Passage. All of it is part and parcel of a desire to take the friction of how complicated an interstellar civilization would be and smooth out the edges.

Now, look, everyone should be drinking whatever kind of cocktail they want. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for desiring Efficiency for Everything in Space. I'm simply saying I don't get it and it's not my point of view for fun play. Especially since I so often see crazy inefficiencies in the world around me. And especially since inefficiencies are where political stress, crisis, and fortunes can so often produce adventure situations.

But, again, I'm not saying that's the way to play or create a setting. I'm saying I approach this material from a different perspective than some. And laying out that foundation so anyone can see what that perspective is.
 
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The amount of world detailing a GM thinks they need to do might be a factor in this.

If they're running a J3 "hired away team" type game then in theory the GM only has to worry about detailing the specific world the players have been sent to. On the other hand if they're running a J1 "bump into adventure while traveling" type game then in theory a GM might feel they need to detail all the worlds along a route.

(This maybe applies more to an OTU type setting where you start off looking at a huge number of systems - less so in a smaller hand-rolled setting.)

This is where I think the idea of truck stop systems can help a lot as a kind of generic space equivalent of a fantasy genre inn. Once you have that idea in the player's heads then you can hand wave journeys until you get to the system where you have something figured out: "It's been three months since you left blah passing through blah, blah, blah and blah on your journey and now arriving at blah...."

The truck stop systems don't always have to remain so. It's just a way of ignoring the system outside the star port until you get an idea. The players might pass through a system a dozen times with it hand-waved as a truck stop system and then the 13th time they are sitting at a star port bar on that system when a crazy ex-prospector at the next table starts muttering to himself.

edit:

this applies more to a large already long-settled OTU type setting than to an explorer setting
 
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IMTU, if a private- or corporate-owned starship is J-3 or more, governments (and starport authorities and insurers) assume by default that it is some sort of paramilitary vessel, because it sure ain't going to be hauling freight and tourists around to make ends meet.

Even in the OTU, passengers and freight are hauled rather than hauling empty hold/staterooms because as the Starship Operator's Manual "Old Timer" said, an empty hold means an empty head, at least it defrays some costs. The remainder is meant to be made up by the adventurers doing some adventuring. That's why patrons exist - it's not just a trading game.
 
My mistake. I was going off your mention of a cross-Impeium tour in a previous post.
Well, sometimes you get the idea for an adventure that involves some far-off place. It would be nice if the option to go there existed. Like if your Wild West campaign is mostly set in Rio Hondo County, Texas, it's still nice if you can jump a train to Chicago or New York and be back again in time for the Christmas Turkey Shoot.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I mean, it's a fact, and it's true. But what are getting at? Are you telling me that a J2 is more efficient in covering space than a J1 ship? Because full disclosure: I know that.
The point was that even in a cluster that is optimized for J1, J2 is still more useful. With the corollary that in a randomly generated Traveller setting that hasn't been customized to accomodate J1 ships, J2 ships are even more useful.

Yes, J1 is less efficient for travel than J2. That is by design, and in the design because the game is created for an RPG experience.
I don't think it is by design. The great importance that the library data places on mains, even in the Classic Era, makes me believe that the original writers thought of J1 as slower, sure, but cheaper to compensate for that. Whereas it turns out that J2 and J3 are both cheaper AND faster, making mains fairly irrelevant from the day J2 is invented.


Hans
 
True, but as tech advanced, the muzzle loaders gave way to breach loaders, then to bolt action, then to auto loaders, etc. So my point is the TL 10/11/12 J-1 ships, would be replaced by the TL 13/14/15 J-2/3 ships as technology progressed. Plus since the Imperium seems to be average of TL 13/14 then I think that most newer ships would be designed at that tech level, rather than the lower one. Why keep building Model A Fords, when you can have Camry, or Forerunner?

A muzzle loading single shot black powder rifle is pretty useless compared to a 30+ round auto-firing assault rifle but hey thats all that was available at some time in history.
 
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