Jump 1 vs Jump 2 ships in the CT Imperium

[Anthony]

More like... "What am I thinking? We can ship our widgets three parsecs with the regular scheduled subbie for Cr1000 per ton in a week. Never mind."

How are you going to compete with that?

There are two possibilities here:
1) The subbie has sufficient capacity to fulfill the demand. In that case, I simply abandon this market.
2) The subbie lacks capacity. In that case, I get contracts with people who couldn't get space on the subbie.

 

[far-trader]

And don't get me started on the dangers of skimming fuel from a gas giant...

:innocent:

What dangers?

Nothing that can't be handwaved away...

The radiation that would cook the people, or not if one handwaves some super tech anti rad science.

Atmospheric braking that would melt the ship, though as efficient as Traveller ships are at losing heat (by waving hands very rapidly ) it's probably not a problem. Neither is the added drag I suppose.

But the biggest thing to worry about is the gravity. At the "surface", i.e. the cloud tops which is the highest you can get and still skim, the gravity is more than your 1G drive can counter. As much as twice or more for large gas giants. Though again there are handwaves to get around it. It is called skimming so one could presume a vector that will take you through and out, with it's own dangers of course.

I'm sure there's more :devil:

As for making money with J2+ ships, it's not hard. Just don't finance it at the book rates. Buy outright and you can make you money back easy. As long as some megacorp route protector, oops, I mean Pirate doesn't take a few shots at you :smirk:

 

[far-trader]

There are two possibilities here:
1) The subbie has sufficient capacity to fulfill the demand. In that case, I simply abandon this market.
2) The subbie lacks capacity. In that case, I get contracts with people who couldn't get space on the subbie.

Yeah, that'd work, until the subbie service expanded, if the market is there. I kind of wonder how the various competition would take the trick though?

I see it as half Vilani tradition and half market protection driving the per jump pricing. The big boys squeeze the little ones out. Or if they can't be squeezed then maybe they have a run in with a "pirate". Anything to maintain the monopoly on long haul runs.

But that's the way I like MTU

I certainly won't argue that the trade rules work economically as we 21st C Solomani see it. In fact I would do trade differently in the Sphere. Actually anywhere but The Imperium.

 

[Anthony]

Yeah, that'd work, until the subbie service expanded, if the market is there. I kind of wonder how the various competition would take the trick though?

There won't be any competition, except from other J1 ships, or people using the same trick as me. People don't compete to lose money. As for the subbie service, why would it expand? If it does, however, I can apply for a subsidy as well as anyone else.

 

[daryen]

So, that leaves me with my initial thoughts about the CT trade system. If you apply the same rules to NPC ships as you apply to player character ships, ...

The rules do NOT apply to NPCs. When you roll for available cargos, those are the cargos available to you! They aren't all the cargos available for everyone; they are your cargos.

In other words, in the Traveller trade system, no one else exists. Or, more accurately, everyone else is abstracted out. A milk run is always a milk run because the die rolls only apply to you. (Until, of course, the referee tosses the rolls and makes the trade dry up by referee fiat because he is tired of it.)

Which leads back to my main point: The Traveller trade rules are only there to drive adventure for the PCs. It is not a representation of how economics work in the Traveller universe as a whole. It is not representative of how NPCs run their ships and companies. It cannot be extrapolated to determine how world and corporate economics work. It is just a means to drive PCs into adventures.

Once you go past that, you have left the intent and purpose of those rules. The warrantee is void.

 

[boomslang]

Nothing that can't be handwaved away...

Or specifically addressed in canon...

The radiation that would cook the people, or not if one handwaves some super tech anti rad science.

Covered in the CT Beltstrike Module: operating m-drives produce an anti-radiation and anti-micrometeroid shield around the ship. (This is a result of m-drives being based on gravitic filed effects, as per the Mach Principle or somesuch.) Direct hits in combat from nuclear warheads notwithstanding, of course.

Atmospheric braking that would melt the ship, though as efficient as Traveller ships are at losing heat (by waving hands very rapidly ) it's probably not a problem. Neither is the added drag I suppose.

Hydrogen is the lightest of elements; you don't have to go particularly deep into atmo to find it. Which means you'll have much less than one atmo of drag to contend with, even at high speed.

But the biggest thing to worry about is the gravity. At the "surface", i.e. the cloud tops which is the highest you can get and still skim, the gravity is more than your 1G drive can counter. As much as twice or more for large gas giants. Though again there are handwaves to get around it. It is called skimming so one could presume a vector that will take you through and out, with it's own dangers of course.

The whole new-conventional-wisdom bit about leisurely cruising around in the soup at subsonic velocities is balderdash; it's perfectly safe to areobrake -- how do you think the Cassini probe slowed down when it got to Saturn? When skimming, just run your drive to offset the braking drag, and keep that nice long vector going... so you hurtle forward just as fast as the GG is trying to pull you down.

I'm sure there's more :devil:

There's always more; sheesh, Trav players are as stubborn about resisting paradigm shifts as any geeks alive...

 

[Anthony]

how do you think the Cassini probe slowed down when it got to Saturn?

With rockets. Cassini would have been instantly destroyed by attempting to aerobrake in Saturn's atmosphere (whether or not aerobraking is in general possible, Cassini doesn't have a heat shield and certainly can't aerobrake).

 

[boomslang]

With rockets. Cassini would have been instantly destroyed by attempting to aerobrake in Saturn's atmosphere (whether or not aerobraking is in general possible, Cassini doesn't have a heat shield and certainly can't aerobrake).

You don't need a heat shield to areobrake; the ISS is pretty much constantly areobraking in the Earth's atmo (at maybe 25Kkph), which is why they have to use rockets and kick it back up a few klicks every few months.

Cassini passed through something like 1/100th of an (Earth) atmo (it was thousands of km above the cloud tops, which are of course, hardly the upper limit of anything's atmosphere) while decelerating around Saturn... this drag had to be figured into the maneuver.

And Mars probes have been areobraking for years without heat shields, either... you just have to not plunge in very deeply; high and fast and patient, that's the key...

 

[Anthony]

You don't need a heat shield to areobrake; the ISS is pretty much constantly areobraking in the Earth's atmo (at maybe 25Kkph), which is why they have to use rockets and kick it back up a few klicks every few months.

To get useful (as in, slow from intercept velocity to orbital velocity) velocity change in a single pass requires heat shielding.

And Mars probes have been areobraking for years without heat shields, either... you just have to not plunge in very deeply; high and fast and patient, that's the key...

Mars has vastly lower orbital velocity than a gas giant. Since heat is proportional to atmospheric density * velocity^3, assuming that Mars scales to a gas giant is highly dubious.

 

[BillDowns]

Which leads back to my main point: The Traveller trade rules are only there to drive adventure for the PCs. It is not a representation of how economics work in the Traveller universe as a whole. It is not representative of how NPCs run their ships and companies. It cannot be extrapolated to determine how world and corporate economics work. It is just a means to drive PCs into adventures.

Once you go past that, you have left the intent and purpose of those rules. The warrantee is void.

Daryen has it exactly right. The trade rules are to expedite adenvtures and not model an entire staller economy.

 

[rancke]

Now, how does one create a "standard" by which we can measure the effectiveness of J1 cargo ships versus J2 cargo ships? Well, we could do it strictly by displacement. In other words, take two hulls, both at 200 dtons, and build a strictly "legal" book two version of the hulls and using strictly the rules as given in the book. One hull would be built as a Jump 2 hull, while the other hull would be built as a Jump 1 hull.

The problem with that is that Book 2 is demonstrably not compatible with any other set of ship-building rules. While they all have differences, there are some common factors that show up in many of them.

Examples:

Jump drive is linked to TL: Every one except Book 2.
Jump fuel is 10% of tonnage per jump number: Every one except MT.
Maneuver drive is reactionless: Arguably every one except TNE.

Others are, admittedly, less clear-cut. For instance, power plant fuel consumption is ridiculously high in Book 2, HG, and T20 and realistic in MT, TNE, T4, and GT.

I've sometimes thought about starting a thread about how TU ships "really" worked, based on sifting all the various systems for clues, but I've never gotten around to it. I'm not even sure what forum would be appropriate.

Anyway, Book 2 designs is right out as far as I'm concerned. I'd prefer QSDS1.5 (T4) designs, but I'd accept HG in the interest of reaching some sort of consensus (I'll just pretend the Imperium requires a huge spare power plant fuel tank as a safety measure in case of misjumps into empty space ).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Basically, I think we think too much, and don't play Traveller nearly enough.

Basically, I think people are mixing up two questions: a) What's a fun way to run a free trader campaign that is simple enough for referees and players to actually enjoy? and b) What's the game background like?

The major problems arise from people insisting on using a decent answer to Question a (i.e. the Traveller trade rules) to answer Question b.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The original printing of CT included a table for generating commercial traffic routes between world pairs based on starports. It maxed out at J4 and that only 2 in 6 times for A-A and A-B worlds, and 1 in 6 times for B-B worlds.

IIRC that table originally allowed a ref to work out what commercial connections a PC would find on a world, i.e. what routes might he find NPC ships jumping along that he could buy passage on? I also strongly suspect that the same table was used to generate X-boat routes randomly.


Hans

 

[rancke]

However, I completely agree with Anthony. Why bother?

Because I'm interested in working out background details. And background details depend on context. For an unrealistic (but easy and fun) system that allows you to run PC free traders, you can get away with ignoring the difference between a world lying midways between two major worlds six parsecs apart and a world lying isolated at the end of an offshoot branch with a half a dozen low- and low-medium population worlds between it and the major trade routes. For a middling realistic background, you can't. Which means that a trade system that ignores that difference can be perfectly adequate for the first purpose and still stink on ice for the second purpose.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Again, the Traveller rules are designed to be played like the game: week to week; jump to jump. Attempting to get any greater insight to the Traveller universe based on the trade system is futile and doomed to failure. It is what it is; do not try to make it more than it is.

I'm not. But since the trade system is inadequate for my purpose, I'm trying to work out some rules of thumb that is adequate. Like figuring out the true expense of moving passengers and cargo (assuming you're a company ship that can rely on filling its hold and staterooms fast and regularly) and then assume that the companies will figure out a way to get paid what it actually costs.

Incidentally, I have come up with a way to make uniform passenger rates work: High, Mid, and Low passages aren't tickets, they're vouchers. They can be exchanged for a jump of any length. The companies cash in vouchers based on their true costs. Free traders can't get more than 1000/8000/10,000 for a voucher unless they can document higher expenses (which J1 and J2 free traders can't). So a free trader that shows up at a Class A starport to cash in a Mid passage gets Cr8000 regardless of whether it was for a jump-1 or Jump-2. A Tukera Long-liner, OTOH, gets Cr14,000 (or whatever) for a Mid Passage.


Hans

 

[robject]

The problem with that is that Book 2 is demonstrably not compatible with any other set of ship-building rules. While they all have differences, there are some common factors that show up in many of them.
[...]
Anyway, Book 2 designs is right out as far as I'm concerned. I'd prefer QSDS1.5 (T4) designs, but I'd accept HG in the interest of reaching some sort of consensus...

I think Book 2 is interesting, because it is so different from the others, and think its essence can be captured in something design-compatible with High Guard (for the same reason you gave: consensus and popularity). Naturally, I think QSDS is a horrible mess, on aesthetic grounds only, although it seems a reasonable approximation of High Guard + Fire, Fusion, and Steel, perhaps.

 

[rancke]

Jump one freighter Beowulf gets a full load of cargo going from Regina to Efate. The Steward of Beowulf Posts the following:

"Starship Beowulf is departing Regina Starport Tuesday for Efate, via Hefry, Forboldn, Knorbes, Whanga, and Uakye. ALL ABOARD!"

Meanwhile, Oberlindes Lines regular merchant Moonstone departs for Efate via Forboldn and Whanga every 60 days and Tukera Longliners depart for Efate via Roup even oftener, and both of them charge less than CrImp48,000. Well, the longliners' charge may be in that neighborhood, but they gets there in 20 day instead of the 70 days the Beowulf takes.

What the Beowulf may get are passengers going to Forboldn who don't want to wait, say, 50 days for the next scheduled departure of the Moonstone.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Because, due to the inability of J2+ ships to charge >Cr1,000 per ton, no space is available on J2 or greater ships. If higher jump ships cannot charge more, the logical response is to simply not sell cargo space on J2 or greater ships -- J2 ships will be private use only, unless of course you pay an appropriate bribe to the person who reserved the space (say, about Cr 1,000 per ton for a J2 ship, Cr 2,000 per ton for a J3 ship, etc).

I simply don't accept the inability of a J2 ship to charge more than Cr1,000 per dT. I consider that an artificial restriction imposed on players by a simplified trade system, not a true Imperial regulation.


Hans

 

[boomslang]

To get useful (as in, slow from intercept velocity to orbital velocity) velocity change in a single pass requires heat shielding.

And since a big delta-vee is explicitly not the goal of a fuel skimming run, there is no problem with heating, since it is not necessary to plunge so deep into GG atmo as to meet that much drag; the fuel intake compressors are designed to draw in just the faintest wisp of gas while you race along in near, but not total, vacuum...

And they always have been, going back all the way to CT B2...

GG skimming is only dangerous in the sense that it's typically done in the "wilderness" away from protective planetary naval forces, and that the fuel you obtain can cause malfunctions if your systems are not built to burn it. The real deal-breaker is the horrible time penalty involved in making the trip to and from the GG while the calendar is bringing your next bank payment relentlessly closer...

 

[robject]

And since a big delta-vee is explicitly not the goal of a fuel skimming run, there is no problem with heating, since it is not necessary to plunge so deep into GG atmo as to meet that much drag; the fuel intake compressors are designed to draw in just the faintest wisp of gas while you race along in near, but not total, vacuum...

[...]

GG skimming is only dangerous in the sense that it's typically done in the "wilderness" away from protective planetary naval forces [...]

I see you haven't been drawn into the ship-design aspect of this thread... what are you, some sort of LBB2 freak?