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Jump Drive

In other words you have no idea where the T4 FF&S authors got their ideas, other than that text was added over time.
Yes, I have the idea that the T4 authors misunderstood what was written in SSOM.


Just like JTAS#24 a normal jump procedure is described, i.e. using a fusion power plant. If the T4 description prohibits collectors, then JTAS#24 must too:
If you read further you will see that the JTAS article actually states later that other power sources may be used instead of a fusion reactor - and names the solar collector and antimatter as alternatives. It does not mention that both need a reservoir of hydrogen therefore we can discount the hydrogen bubble hypothesis:
Power Source
Jumping uses large amounts of energy to rip open the barriers between
normal space and jump space. Normally, only a fusion power plant can
supply this energy. Some alternate systems make use of solar power
generators (which operate far more slowly) or anti-matter power systems
(rare and very high-tech).
Power Generation Capability: Fusion power generation systems (or an
equally capable alternative) must be available or sufficient power for jump
drives will not be possible.




Yes, the power plant and computer requirement in LBB2'81 invalidated some LBB2'77 designs such as the Subsidized Merchant (Type M) or the X-Boat. Some of them were re-specified for LBB'81, some were not. So what, that happens with every new edition?
It gives us something to continually discuss for over forty years... :)
 
Nope, because when MgT was written T5 was still in draft.

Plus the author of MgT 1e actually had very little knowledge of CT.
 
I have been arguing that very point for years.

...


My understanding is the same as yours. Real space gravity has no affect on a ship in jump unless the ship is trying to leave jump space at the end of the journey - in which case the 100D precipitation occurs.
What can we infer from these?

One, is the affect of the 100D limit. Don't start jump within a 100D limit, but if you try to exit jump within a 100D limit, the nature of the system simply spits you out at the 100D limit. This implies limited "jump masking". Notably if you're within the 100D limit of a star, you can not jump, nor can you enter within the 100D limit of a star. However nothing here suggests that the 100D sphere around a body "blocks line of sight". There's nothing to suggest that you will be pulled out of jump by a rogue gravity well. Rather, only when you actually leave jump space does the 100D limit apply, not within jump space. So, if you want to jump to the other side of a star in the same system, the star can't stop you, it's not "in the way". You can't jump in or out of it within 100D, but once you're in, it's not yanking you out. You're in the wrong dimension.
If that were the case, then jump calculations would be so easy anybody could do it from a star atlas database which would calculate the proper motion of the two systems. No other data would be necessary, because no intervening objects could pose any danger. Sure, you might not arrive within the 1000km/pc of a properly planned jump, but since you probably have to burn across 1M± km for the 100D limit of a planet (or more if close to the primary), a few 1000km would be nothing.
 
That assumes that the jump calculation is only a function of real space. If it is also a function of jump space, then the calculation is as complex as ref desires for their universe.
 
That assumes that the jump calculation is only a function of real space. If it is also a function of jump space, then the calculation is as complex as ref desires for their universe.

Who is for always assuming that traveling the depths of space should be as dangerous and complicated as Book 2 suggest?

[raises hand]

This guy.

So, yeah. It's a function of jump space.
 
That assumes that the jump calculation is only a function of real space. If it is also a function of jump space, then the calculation is as complex as ref desires for their universe.

This is how I've played over the years. Back when we started, we loved getting technical and space travel was dangerous, so having a good navigator made a difference.

My current group are not hardcore Traveller grognards, and we play a fairly rules-light game (despite me going way overboard in world creation, ship design and all the mini solo-style games built into Traveller, but to each our own). So space travel is a lot more glossed over. Not my personal preference but I roll with the group I am with.
 
This is how I've played over the years. Back when we started, we loved getting technical and space travel was dangerous, so having a good navigator made a difference.

My current group are not hardcore Traveller grognards, and we play a fairly rules-light game (despite me going way overboard in world creation, ship design and all the mini solo-style games built into Traveller, but to each our own). So space travel is a lot more glossed over. Not my personal preference but I roll with the group I am with.

Could you talk about the differences in play for these different styles regarding this matter? What is the difference in what the players deal with and do at the table.
Thanks!
 
If that were the case, then jump calculations would be so easy anybody could do it from a star atlas database which would calculate the proper motion of the two systems. No other data would be necessary, because no intervening objects could pose any danger. Sure, you might not arrive within the 1000km/pc of a properly planned jump, but since you probably have to burn across 1M± km for the 100D limit of a planet (or more if close to the primary), a few 1000km would be nothing.

If this were the case, then we'd be hearing much more about the route planning of Jump, about multiple legs of the journey, etc. Plus the burden of time and fuel.

Otherwise you're at the mercy of "jump windows" when whatever is blocking your way happens to move out of your your way. We'd hear more about that long trip to the opposite side of the primary since with the current time of year in the planets orbit, the primary blocks the other system. "I'm going to blow it up, it obstructs my view of Venus."

Because nothing suggests that you can "turn" in Jump space. It's a straight line. And, if you want to concern yourself about Jump Shadowing (I always get the terms confused between Masking and Shadowing), then you have to worry about "LOJ" -- "Line of Jump".

Not just the primary, but the moon, the Jovian planets, that big 100K freighter nearby that Just So Happens to have got in the way.

And the other problem is when does that happen?

I'm traveling to Osirus, and I start the Jump. But, yea, by dumb luck, I didn't see ("see") the 100K ton freighter and just my dumb luck (being late for my wife's anniversary, natch), the ship pulls me out.

WHEN does it pull me out? Immediately? a week later? Do I show up a week later, 10Mkm from my start point screaming at the Navigator. "WTH are we still doing here?" With the intervening freighter long gone?

It can't be instant, otherwise there'd be a lot of "quick trips" to the outer system.

On the one hand, I kind of like the idea of things likes stars and such getting in the way. Having to route ships around them etc depending on what system you're going to.

But boy, it sure can get unmanageable pretty quick. Because 100D is 100D whether from a star or a marble (no a marble can't pull you out, but a big marble can!).

How "high" off the elliptic do you have to go to exit any kind of system with an asteroid belt safely? How many ships have been dumped in the Oort cloud?

If it's "reality" then, that's what it is, and you have to deal with it.

But "anecdotally", descriptions and conversations over the convoluted routing has not made it in to the buzz of the content.
 
Could you talk about the differences in play for these different styles regarding this matter? What is the difference in what the players deal with and do at the table.
Thanks!

rather than derailing the jump thread, I posted here which seems to be the general idea of that thread.
 
So what does a jump drive do while you are in jump space...is the grid active or is your ship flying through hyperspace like a football in those seconds after someone has kicked it off the ground?

Is the J-Drive something that the engineers can strip and check over while in hyperspace - or something that is left well alone because it's doing something vital?.

Okay, so going back to OP, this is a well-timed topic since I've been going back and playing with the idea of whether or not one needs a power plant and computer for jump. The jump drive is doing the lanthanum grid thing, protecting your ship from weird-space, so I'm not sure that can go down without things becoming unhealthy - or at least that part of the system: you could maybe open up the parts that weren't involved in maintaining the field without the field going pop and you turning inside out. The other systems I'm not so sure about. CT said no PP needed then later said yes, MegaTrav said no, and it occurred to me that you could launch a CT ship into jump by running power through cables from a craft drifting just far enough away to be safe then jetissoning the cables just before jump, so long as the launching ship had a working jump drive and fuel.

MegaTrav hinted the computer wasn't needed, since the ship in that example was launching through jump space with a skragged power plant that couldn't deliver power to the computer and since the ship in question was likely a warship with power demands too great to be handled by emergency power. They maybe delivered emergency power to controls long enough for launch, but I doubt there was enough to carry it through the entire week. However, I know of no CT canon that speaks to what happens if the computer fails while in jump space, so I'm not sure if the CT jump drive can operate without in-flight computer mediation.
 
The other systems I'm not so sure about. CT said no PP needed then later said yes, MegaTrav said no, and it occurred to me that you could launch a CT ship into jump by running power through cables from a craft drifting just far enough away to be safe then jetissoning the cables just before jump, so long as the launching ship had a working jump drive and fuel.

Do not forget that this is explicitly addressed in CT's TCS; on page 35, under "Jump Failure" it explains that power plants are required in order to Jump, but a Jump may be undertaken without a working computer onboard so long as a nearby friendly has one that can be linked to.

As for running power through cables to get the J-drive going, this is one of my hypotheticals for how Type XT Xboat Tenders support power-plantless Type X Xboats. But there is absolutely nothing in canon to support the idea -- if there was, we would see other examples of it: you could fit a "starship" with nothing but a J-drive and a cargo bay, slap Drop Tanks on it and power it up externally to get it into Jump, and you have just perfected the over-100-dton J-torp.

D'oh! :file_28:
 
Well, had an eureka moment a couple of weeks back, in that MongoVerse High Guard may permit an external creator of a jump bubble, akin to a Stargate.
 
Do not forget that this is explicitly addressed in CT's TCS; on page 35, under "Jump Failure" it explains that power plants are required in order to Jump, but a Jump may be undertaken without a working computer onboard so long as a nearby friendly has one that can be linked to. ...

I found that rule difficult with respect to the linking computer and bridge, inasmuch as it had the potential to violate bridge-size or computer-size rules.

"...(T)he linking ship must have a computer and bridge as least as large as that of the damaged ship ... Both move at the jump rate of the slowest ship ..."

So, a 200,000 dT recovery tender pulls up on the 200,000 dT dreadnought, links, and the two jump out of the system together - with a grand total of 4000 dT of functioning bridge between them since the dreadnought's bridge is currently scrap metal exposed to vacuum. But, a 400,000 dT dispersed structure docking tender taking out a dreadnought with a scrapped power plant would need an 8000 dT bridge. Similarly, the 75,000 dT recovery tender with its model-6 computer can pull out a battlecruiser with a dead computer, but you can't build a 150,000 dT docking tender with a model-6 computer.

It also created other headaches. Apparently there's this bit in canon where one ship can prevent another ship from entering jump space. So, either these two jump fields are being coordinated to make the ships behave as if they were one ship, or these two ships are jumping far enough apart from each other to avoid triggering misjump - while connected to each other with a cable that is either equipped with a jump mesh or about to be subjected to naked jump space.

And, again, what happens if the cable fails in mid-jump? Okay, rules only put a roll on after every jump, but rules are not role-play, and all it needs is one fanatic marine hiding in some crawlspace for this week's episode to turn into a disaster movie. Does the cripple precipitate out of jump space somewhere in interstellar space between origin and destination, or does it disintegrate entirely as its jump mesh suddenly turns off while in jump space, exposing the entirety of the crippled ship to the physics of jump space? Or, does it precipitate out in the middle of Tholian space in the Terran Empire universe?

(Mental note: working on a recovery crew can be hazardous to one's health.)

That does seem to make it pretty clear that the post-81 CT jump drive requires continuing power from the power plant throughout the jump - which leads us in turn to the question in the immediate previous paragraph. (I'm not sure how much of TCS remains canon, but I don't see any reason that specific element would be decanonized given that it supports existing canon rather than creating problems.)

...As for running power through cables to get the J-drive going, this is one of my hypotheticals for how Type XT Xboat Tenders support power-plantless Type X Xboats. But there is absolutely nothing in canon to support the idea -- if there was, we would see other examples of it: you could fit a "starship" with nothing but a J-drive and a cargo bay, slap Drop Tanks on it and power it up externally to get it into Jump, and you have just perfected the over-100-dton J-torp. ...:

I made the "J-torp" several years ago, though it did carry its own power plant and other essentials. I made a module for a modular cutter that contained a 10 dT bridge extension, a Model-1 computer, some fuel, and the "special field cables" found on the jump ship in Supplement-9, Fighting Ships, with a bit of space left over for a half-stateroom and maybe a couple of emergency-low-berths, depending on whether you aimed for a 100 dT finished volume or a 110 dT finished volume.

Idea was that a crippled ship in need of summoning rescuers would deploy the cutter with a jump module, the cutter crew would go EVA to deploy the field cables around either a rigging of spars or another cutter (or two cutter modules if the module was set up for a 110 dT volume, depended on how big the original ship was and how much it could carry), and the jump cutter would then do a jump-1 to the next destination. The crew would have to EVA and stow the field cables before the cutter could move on maneuver drives at the destination to do something like refuel or land; a second cutter could maneuver independently once undocked but, if two extra modules were being transported, they'd have to be left to drift while the cutter went to get fuel or whatever, then it would return to them and re-dock them before redeploying the net and making another jump. It would make for an interesting adventure while the crew of, say, a Broadsword made their way back to a friendly port to get help for their ship and crewmates.
 
Well, being edition specific, space tugging is quite easy with jump bubbles.

As regards to emergency life boats/notification, a fifty tonne cutter can easily add another fifty tonnes of ballast within a jump bubble, and a one shot jump drive to keep costs low.
 
If this were the case, then we'd be hearing much more about the route planning of Jump, about multiple legs of the journey, etc. Plus the burden of time and fuel.

Otherwise you're at the mercy of "jump windows" when whatever is blocking your way happens to move out of your your way. We'd hear more about that long trip to the opposite side of the primary since with the current time of year in the planets orbit, the primary blocks the other system. "I'm going to blow it up, it obstructs my view of Venus."

Because nothing suggests that you can "turn" in Jump space. It's a straight line. And, if you want to concern yourself about Jump Shadowing (I always get the terms confused between Masking and Shadowing), then you have to worry about "LOJ" -- "Line of Jump".

Not just the primary, but the moon, the Jovian planets, that big 100K freighter nearby that Just So Happens to have got in the way.

And the other problem is when does that happen?

I'm traveling to Osirus, and I start the Jump. But, yea, by dumb luck, I didn't see ("see") the 100K ton freighter and just my dumb luck (being late for my wife's anniversary, natch), the ship pulls me out.

WHEN does it pull me out? Immediately? a week later? Do I show up a week later, 10Mkm from my start point screaming at the Navigator. "WTH are we still doing here?" With the intervening freighter long gone?

It can't be instant, otherwise there'd be a lot of "quick trips" to the outer system.

On the one hand, I kind of like the idea of things likes stars and such getting in the way. Having to route ships around them etc depending on what system you're going to.

But boy, it sure can get unmanageable pretty quick. Because 100D is 100D whether from a star or a marble (no a marble can't pull you out, but a big marble can!).

How "high" off the elliptic do you have to go to exit any kind of system with an asteroid belt safely? How many ships have been dumped in the Oort cloud?

If it's "reality" then, that's what it is, and you have to deal with it.

But "anecdotally", descriptions and conversations over the convoluted routing has not made it in to the buzz of the content.
There's nothing in jump space except "weird physics." RAW, the only danger comes from real space gravity in the 100D area around a massive body at the time of entering jump space. There's no mention of other causes of misjump. The 100D shadow at the destination can't cause misjump. There's no mention the 100D shadow of any other body precipitating the ship out of jump space, i.e., no masking. Only a ship that is attempting to leave jump space within the 100D shadow gets precipitated out of jump space at the edge of the 100D shadow.

But, then, where on the edge of the shadow? By implication, it would be the point where the linear approach path from the origin crosses the edge, i.e., there is a 1-to-1 correspondence between jump space and real space. Otherwise you could pick an arbitrary vector for approach if the jump calc controls it, or impose a random vector if the relationship is unpredictable. But neither of those are RAW.

The only RAW variable is the ±10% duration of jump. No indication that the path is variable. In fact, it is a given that the incoming jump points from nearby origins are known, otherwise pirates couldn't possibly lie in wait.
 
Jumpbreaker Missile: These missiles create localized gravitational distortions when they detonate, making the delicate calculations required for an accurate jump much more difficult. A ship hit by a jumpbreaker missile suffers dee em minus eight to any Jump check (see the Traveller Core Rulebook, page one hundred forty eight) attempted in this combat round or the next.

Anything that causes significant distortions in either the local gravitational environment, or volume within a jump bubble.
 
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