Jump Into Empty Hexes, Y/N?

[tbeard1999]

The problem is that it doesn't appear that the concept of canonicity hits until the TNE era.

Makes sense. While MT dramatically changed the established Traveller background, you could ignore the rebellion if you wanted to. And MT definitely resembled CT. TNE used completely different mechanics, pretty much wiped out the setting and really opened the doors to claims that it "wasn't Traveller".

I suppose that it would be helpful to identify how we use the concept of canon. In my case, "canon" most often helps me assess a claim that something is or isn't "really Traveller".

 

[rust]

I suppose that it would be helpful to identify how we use the concept of canon.

I see and use canon as the framework of basic concepts that are the foun-
dation of my setting, for example "No FTL Communications" or "No 'Scotty,
beam me up !'".
For me, this framework has to be "realistic" (= no logic bugs, no contradic-
tions, etc.), and whenever I decide to change a part of it, the "replacement"
has to fit in with the remaining parts of the original standards.

 

[aramis]

I would tend to add:

5) The one that fits my setting best from among 1) - 4) [preferably 4)]

That's just a way of rationalizing authoritativeness on different variables.

Ty:

The setting disconnects between CT and MT are mostly due to rules changes (fuel rates, etc) resulting in incompatible extrapolations. (Like usable 8 Pc duration ships... in CT, they just plain are not plausible for other than courier duty, even under HG, since that's at least 87% of hull: 80% Jfuel, 2% JDrive, 1% PFuel, 1% PPlant, 1% MDrive, 2% bridge; at 2j4, 96% of hull), whereas 8Pc under MT is more doable ~53% (2j4: J=5%, Jf=50%, MD 1%, PP ~ 2%, PPf~4%, Bridge ~1%)... after crew, it still has about 20% for mission payload.

TNE changes loads more, AND looks to preclude continued use of prior editions; GDW seems to have discovered the fan base as treating the materials as an integrated whole (due in no small part to the reactions to both Traveller:2300 and MegaTraveller). Like my question to GDW about whether or not there was going to be an Imperial supplement for 2300... and the review in Dragon implying it was the early history of the OTU. And TNE seems written to isolate its fans from the OTU fans.

Similar was happening in D&D, too, with the 5 worlds being codified: Forgotton Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, Ravenloft and Dragonlance. People were demanding supplements to be specific to their game world or generic enough for all of them.

 

[tbeard1999]

That's just a way of rationalizing authoritativeness on different variables.

Oh, I understand. We lawyers have elaborate methodologies to reconcile and harmonize contradictory/vague statutes and contract provisions. I subconsciously use them to resolve gaming contradictions/ambiguioties.

The setting disconnects between CT and MT are mostly due to rules changes (fuel rates, etc) resulting in incompatible extrapolations.

Agreed. I never really understood GDWs unwillingness to revise previous rules to be compatible with current ones. It would not have been a big deal, for instance, to revise Book 2's starship design rules to be compatible with High Guard.

Of course, in the pre-desktop publishing era, it was significantly more labor intensive and expensive to revise a product. Having text galleys typeset was a significant expense and manual layout was time consuming. (I worked for a traditional typesetter in 1984-87, and headed up the transition to desktop page layout).

And I imagine that GDW, like most game companies, never had enough talent to go around. It's also the case that GDW produced games continuously during its lifetime, which doubtlessly made it more difficult to revise old stuff.

Still, a lot of later problems for players could have been prevented had GDW at least tried to maintain consistency.

TNE changes loads more, AND looks to preclude continued use of prior editions

And until D&D 3rd, just might have been the ugliest professional gaming product ever (in terms of layout and page design). Ick.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Agreed. I never really understood GDWs unwillingness to revise previous rules to be compatible with current ones. It would not have been a big deal, for instance, to revise Book 2's starship design rules to be compatible with High Guard.

But, why would they? They had a NEW product, and weren't selling the old one anymore. Not until the TG movement (Traveller Grognard - or Traveller Grumbler) began was there a call for CT again. And, until the reprints, that just wasn't happening.

 

[Icosahedron]

I was about to add this same #5 myself - the 'many universes' interpretation.
I believe this is the 'most right' because it reflects what is actually out there.

Personally, I see no need to 'resolve' canon. It's a thankless task and is meaningless because each Referee develops his own 'canon' anyway as soon as he 'enters' the Traveller Universe.

For example, let us suppose that 'Rust' and 'TBeard' both play in what they claim to be a 'canon' TU. Then, in Rust's version of the 'canon' Traveller Universe, let's say a group of adventurers kill the Emperor's cat on Capital. In TBeard's 'canon' Traveller Universe, in an adventure set on Capital, let's say one month later, the cat is alive. Which is correct? Is the cat alive or dead in the 'real' Traveller Universe?

We cannot hope to share all information about every event that is supposed to have happened in the 'Traveller Universe'. What we do is we each choose what to incorporate in our own Traveller Universe, and as soon as we touch it, we change it. None of us games in Marc Miller's Traveller Universe, cos things have probably happened on the table in his spare room that he hasn't publicised (no smutty innuendos, please).

Anything we all agree on is canon; anything we disagree on is not, regardless of whether it has been published and by whom - and we won't agree on how to change it, either - probably we won't even agree if it should be changed. (Hans)
If we agree on 95% of the whole, that's good enough, IMHO.

But regardless of 'canon', Rule #1 is paramount - If the referee says the game is Traveller, then it is Traveller.

 

[deniable]

Ahh, the famous Strephon's cat paradox. Bravo.

 

[Plankowner]

But, then an official Traveller publication comes out and mentions that Strephon doesn't even have a cat, he has a dog.

BOTH groups are screwed then. (screwing the pooch, get it???) :rofl:

 

[rust]

I was hit even worse: TNE came out and told me that the entire OTU had
been killed ...

 

[tbeard1999]

But, why would they? They had a NEW product, and weren't selling the old one anymore. Not until the TG movement (Traveller Grognard - or Traveller Grumbler) began was there a call for CT again. And, until the reprints, that just wasn't happening.

GDW produced and sold Classic Traveller in several editions (LBBx3, Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, LBB in Bog Box) for years after coming out with High Guard.

High Guard came out in 1979.

The second edition of the LBBs came out in 1981 (these were sold in the small box and in a large box with Adventure 0, Book 0 and a map of the Spinward Marches).

The Traveller Book came out in 1982.

Starter Traveller came out in 1983.

So there was ample opportunity to revise Book 2's starship design rules. GDW just didn't do it.

 

[aramis]

GDW produced and sold Classic Traveller in several editions (LBBx3, Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, LBB in Bog Box) for years after coming out with High Guard.

High Guard came out in 1979.

The second edition of the LBBs came out in 1981 (these were sold in the small box and in a large box with Adventure 0, Book 0 and a map of the Spinward Marches).

The Traveller Book came out in 1982.

Starter Traveller came out in 1983.

So there was ample opportunity to revise Book 2's starship design rules. GDW just didn't do it.

moreover, the various printings of 1E CT and 2E CT are all retypesets, anyway...So realistically, there are about 10 different CT LBB editions

There was an old thread comparing what was in various LBB printings.

1st printing had Jump Torps. by 4th, they were gone. Somewhere around 1979, they smoothed damages to straight dice, rather than dice+mods.

GDW Never quit tweaking with rules. but, by the same token, CT was still available for two years after MT was released (1987 release, 1989 I still saw new CT boxes restocked on shelves)

Until TNE, Traveller was a collection of rules amongst which to pick and choose, and until MT, pretty vague as a setting.

 

[jawillroy]

"But, why would they? They had a NEW product, and weren't selling the old one anymore. Not until the TG movement (Traveller Grognard - or Traveller Grumbler) began was there a call for CT again. And, until the reprints, that just wasn't happening."

But with High Guard, that wasn't the case - it was still supposed to be part of Traveller, right alongside LBB123; High guard explicitly allowed for the use of Book 2 drives, for example. So it doesn't seem to me they were looking to completely replace Book 2, and I'd always wished they'd done a smoother job melding the two models.

 

[tbeard1999]

moreover, the various printings of 1E CT and 2E CT are all retypesets, anyway...So realistically, there are about 10 different CT LBB editions

There was an old thread comparing what was in various LBB printings.

1st printing had Jump Torps. by 4th, they were gone. Somewhere around 1979, they smoothed damages to straight dice, rather than dice+mods.

Yes, that happened with Snapshot in 1979. It made the 1981 LBB revision and Traveller Book and Starter Traveller. The old Judges Guild green referee's screen had the original LBB damage (plus Mercenary). I had to retire it...

Until TNE, Traveller was a collection of rules amongst which to pick and choose, and until MT, pretty vague as a setting.

I don't think I'd characterize the Third Imperium circa 1986 as a "vague" setting. I suspect that there were more total words devoted to detailing it than any other RPG setting (except maybe Forgotten Realms, which came on very strong in the late 1980s).

But there was definitely a schizophrenic selection of rules:

3-5 different combat systems -- LBB1 (1st), LBB (2nd), Snapshot, AHL, and Striker. And the LBB1 system was modified with the second edition of LBB1, so arguably 5 systems. Of course, Striker wasn't exactly an RPG combat system (though it worked very well), so maybe 1 less system. And LBB1 2nd ed. officially supplanted LBB1 1st ed., so arguably 1st ed. shouldn't be included.

2-3 different starship design systems -- LBB2, HG 1st and HG 2nd. Again, since HG 2nd officially replaced HG 1st, probably only 2 systems.

4 different starship combat systems -- LBB2, Mayday, HG 1st, HG 2nd, Starter Traveller. Plus, a supplement on missiles that incompletely worked with Mayday and Starter Traveller.

2 different approaches to character generation -- LBB1/Supp 4 and LBB4+ (which typically generated far more capable characters). And there was considerable difference between Mercenary and High Guard's systems.

Had I been out of high school in 1982 and asked to take over the CT rules, I'd have probably:

1. Merged the Book 2 and HG ship design and combat systems, leaving Mayday as a board game.

2. Used Snapshot as the "advanced" combat system and kept the LBB1 combat system as the "basic" combat system. While I personally preferred Striker and AHL, I think that most Traveller players preferred the LBB1 system. Alternatively, I'd have used AHL as the combat system, with the LBB1 turn sequencing for the basic rules and the AHL action point system for advanced rules.

3. Done something to equalize LBB1/Supp 4 characters with Book 4+ characters (I don't know how practical it was to create a Book 4+ style chargen system for all 18 careers in LBB1 and Supp 4).

4. Included all skills from Books 4+ and Supp 4 in the revised LBB1.

These steps (or analogous ones) would not have taken much time or resources and would have made CT far better IMHO.

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind, I started in 1983...

The setting was vague. We had the marches and the Solomani Rim, each with a few thousand words for each sector. Supps 8 & 11 provided library data. There is vague reference material in Bks 1-7.

By the standards of the day, it was fairly broad, but rather shallow. Compared to Star Frontiers (about 2 SS, but somewhat more detail), or Spacemaster (more cohesive setting material in the adventures), Ringworld (which could borrow from Niven's works directly)... it was vague. Even Car Wars had a far more concrete setting. (Yes, intentional bad pun.) Greyhawk had about 10k words in just one product out of several, FR was about to be given similar treatment...

developing settings via adventures is sneaky, and for me, not cohesive.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

GDW produced and sold Classic Traveller in several editions (LBBx3, Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, LBB in Bog Box) for years after coming out with High Guard.

High Guard came out in 1979.

The second edition of the LBBs came out in 1981 (these were sold in the small box and in a large box with Adventure 0, Book 0 and a map of the Spinward Marches).

The Traveller Book came out in 1982.

Starter Traveller came out in 1983.

So there was ample opportunity to revise Book 2's starship design rules. GDW just didn't do it.

But with High Guard, that wasn't the case - it was still supposed to be part of Traveller, right alongside LBB123; High guard explicitly allowed for the use of Book 2 drives, for example. So it doesn't seem to me they were looking to completely replace Book 2, and I'd always wished they'd done a smoother job melding the two models.

You're both right - I was reading into tbeard's post that he was talking about MT (some previous post, I'm sure, that got read into it). And, aramis, the fact it was still being stocked out of some warehouse inventory didn't mean it was still being produced - just look at the amount of stuff on eBay that's "new, in shrinkwrap" and isn't a fraud.

(And, yes, a retrofit to make the 2 books fit better would have been really nice. But, I'm just happy to still be able to play - and use either book to make things work! )

 

[Fritz_Brown]

3. Done something to equalize LBB1/Supp 4 characters with Book 4+ characters (I don't know how practical it was to create a Book 4+ style chargen system for all 18 careers in LBB1 and Supp 4).

Can't have been too hard - most of them have been done by fans (who got paid nothing for their efforts) in the intervening years....

 

[Whipsnade]

The setting was vague. We had the marches and the Solomani Rim, each with a few thousand words for each sector. Supps 8 & 11 provided library data. There is vague reference material in Bks 1-7.

Aramis,

That's an excellent point and I'd like to add to it.

Not only was the setting vague by later RPG standards and not only were the setting materials scattered across books, supplements, JTAS articles, and other publications, but I'd suspect that damn few us back then had everything GDW had published for Traveller. It wasn't a matter of money, more a matter of access.

Simply put, there was no internet. Everything depended on "bricks & mortar". You bought games in a store and, if they didn't order/stock a product, you didn't get it. Someone who could get into Manhattan somewhat regularly could descend on "The Compleat Strategist" with a couple hundred bucks and "catch up" with the setting, but those lucky people were definitely in the minority.

I had a toy store in a mall whose ordering/stocking was scatter-shot, a game store in Groton, CT (~1 hour away) that carried more wargames, and an extremely odd store in western CT (again ~1 hour away) which resembled someone's personal collection dumped into a barn. That was it.

So, not only was the setting vague and scattered, most of us never got all the materials until the Reprints came out...

... and The Spinward Marches Campaign still fell through the cracks!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rust]

Yep, I remember that in the "early years" of Traveller I had to mail order all
my Traveller stuff from Britain, and of course I could order only the things I
was aware of. It took years before I learned of the existence of the materi-
al from Judges' Guild or Paranoia Press, and even quite a long time before
someone informed me that FASA was producing Traveller stuff, too.

 

[aramis]

Fritz: CT was still in the GDW catalogue for 1988!

Me, I had 4 game stores: Hobbycraft (Eagle River & 7 Anchorage Locations), Spenard Hobby (1 Anchorage location), Games Keeper (2 Anch. Locations), and starting in 1985, Bosco's Comics added Games. Plus (until 1986) Longs Drugs carried RPG's (TSR, AH & VG only), as did Book Cache (Zocci, Metagaming, SPI, and SJG only). B Dalton had a small TSR section.

Since I got Nexus Mag (TFG), I was able to order via post several games not locally carried.

But yeah, in general, you were at the mercy of the stockist.

ANd Anchorage was exceedingly over-supplied.

 

[Greg]

When did Fifth Frontier War come out? Seems to me the development of a metaplot is a clear sign the setting has been somewhat fleshed out.