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Jump Into Empty Hexes, Y/N?

But if you say that it's the ship-building rules that are totally wrong, then I guess I'd have to concede that this is also a possibility.

By shipbuilding rules I assume you mean the costs of J2+ ships, which are low enough that operating a J1 ship in their niche should look foolish.

Of course you could keep those rules and still have J1 ships dominate, if you just stipulate that people act inefficiently. i.e. state that there is some bias/regulation against tramp freighters with more than J1, and also against corporate J2+ ships competing against them in the spot shipping market. This isn't mentioned in canon but it's not explicitly forbidden either.

But it would drive me crazy (I prefer a more laissez faire empire) so I tend to prefer your "canon is wrong" viewpoint.
 
When I started playing back in 1983, we didn't do any fancy cost/revenue or other economic calculations to determine the kind of ships we tried for.

No, we just looked at the maps in the Spinward Marches, Beyond, and Vanguard Reaches sector books and said "J1 won't get you anywhere. I want a J2 (at least) ship".

And that was that.
 
...No, we just looked at the maps in the Spinward Marches ...and said "J1 won't get you anywhere. I want a J2 (at least) ship".

And that was that.

:rolleyes:

Kids, what ya gonna do.

I was tramping The Marches 1 Parsec at a time for ages. Never needed no profit thieving fancy J2 setup. There's hardly none of The Marches you can't get to, and what you can't ain't worth the trip. Sure you gotta chance Gorram's run if you want to play the whole Main but no one will force you. Life's all about chances, you guess the risk and decide to roll the dice or not.
 
Or you can just use unrefined fuel in that J1 ship and cross any rift. :)
Gotta love those misjumps that 'just happen' to land you where the ref neded you to be.
 
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When did Fifth Frontier War come out? Seems to me the development of a metaplot is a clear sign the setting has been somewhat fleshed out.

I want to say 1981 because, if I recall, the War! issue of JTAS came out that summer.

And I guess I was lucky because I bought most of my CT at Dream Wizards back in its heyday.
 
Military use this in MTU

One of the reasons I'm seeing a problem that needs solving is this: Say you've got a one-parsec gap separating two jump-one mains, all of which has been traveled by human spacefarers for centuries, millenia. Everybody knows that there's this gap that prevents the most common class of merchant ships - Jump 1 vessels - from getting from one main to the other. If it's a trivial matter to jump into empty hexes, why hasn't anyone taken the initiative to set up some sort of deep-space installation there? A fusion plant, a habitat area, a fuel storage facility and a freetrader or two to keep it resupplied, and BAMMO, you've got a hub for interstellar commerce that would grow from a lousy D-port to an A or B facility in no time.

But I don't think I've heard of anyone doing this in ANY TU.

;) Maybe a Major Corp does it but if so it is unknown to all (at this time).

The reason that it is not done is because everything must be transported in. Everything. And depending on how far (empty hexes) away the nearest system is makes the cost even more outragious. Transporting Fuel is the most uneffiecent of all the supply items that must be brought in. Most refueler ships are actually module cargo bay types that can be dismantled to be used for building other things.

The benfit of this type of installation in MTU is that there are no other masses to hide behind so that any ship that jumps with in a light year of the installation is very clearly seen by sensors.

Dave Chase
 
I agree that two unambiguous, truly contradictory factual assertions cannot be valid for the same universe. But, in practical terms, so what?

Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm getting the sense that you're trying to work up to an argument that there is no such thing as "the OTU."
No, I'm arguing that "the OTU" is a single universe. Therefore, two contradictory statements about the OTU cannot both be true. Therefore, at least one of them is false. I'm further arguing that it matters which one it is, because GMs who purchase official material set in the OTU ought to be able to rely on statements made in the authorial voice.

For example, say I run an adventure set on Cunnonic and makes use of the fact that Cunnonic historically had a long and friendly association with Tizon and only became part of the Darrian Confederation within the last generation. If someone later publishes a writeup of Cunnonic that is heavily influenced by the three or four times it has violently changed hands between the Darrians and the Sword Worlders over the years, I'll be unable to use large parts of that writeup, because I've already told my players that Cunnonic doesn't have a long history of being invaded back and forth.

Those two mutually contradictory versions are both based on canonical statements going back to Library Data (L-Z) and Darrians. They weren't resolved until Sword Worlds was published (which, according to Aramis, means that they haven't been resolved yet).

It doesn't really matter which version is used[*], but it makes a big practical difference whether Traveller writers all use the same one or not.


[*] Until someone uses one of them for an adventure or writeup.


If that's where you're headed, I'd consider that other forms of entertainment -- novels, movies, television shows -- have continuity problems. Yet can we *really* claim that there's no such thing as the "official Star Wars universe" or the "official Star Trek universe"? *Anything* created by fallible humans will have flaws and it seems rather pointless to assert that there are no established standards if *any* flaws exist.
I agree that it's impossible to avoid all mistakes. I just don't think that's a good reason to dismiss the ones that are discovered as unimportant instead of correcting them.

Contradictory or ambiguous statements are IMHO "canon", but the reconciliation of contradictions and ambiguities are legitimate subjects for discussion and opinions can reasonably vary.
Opinions can reasonably vary, but when someone writes new Traveller material he has to choose one. To quote something Robert Prior once said : "The very act of writing a Traveller book closes the doors on possibilities. Any game supplement does that, assuming the publisher cares about internal consistency."

At the very least, they define the boundaries. For instance, High Guard and Book 2 may differ on how much a given drive costs. I can choose between them and either choice could be called "canonical".
That's where I disagree with you. It also has to make sense, and the cost of a jump drive has enormous ramifications for the background. And those costs can't both be true at the same time.

As a referee, I simply choose which contradictory bits I'll prefer and reconcile ambiguities as reasonably as I can. If I stop there, I think that MTU can be called "canonical" (assuming that my reconciliations are indeed rational).
As a referee, you can do anything you want with YTU. Nor does it matter if anyone calls it canonical or not. The only practical issue is how easy it is for you to use other people's Traveller material and how easy it is for them to use your Traveller material.

Perhaps another way to slice it is to say that "canon" is a list of standards that an "official" Traveller universe must comply with. Where canon is ambiguous or contradictory, then I believe that any reasonable reconciliation will be "canonical".
Canon is what Traveller authors have to comply with in order to sell their stuff to Marc Miller or one of his henchmen. It's also a yardstick that makes it easier for fans to exchange material.


Hans
 
"And then another writer can set another adventure in the same past and show that another account is the one true one"

Or you can just dust yourself off, pick one set of core books, and extrapolate from there by your own dernself. ^_^
Sure, but if I was going to do that, I'd just make up my own universe from scratch. What's the point of working in a shared universe if I can't use the stuff the people I'm sharing it with produces?



Hans
 
I agree that there is a Traveller "canon" (although I do not like the word "canon" because of its religious background, and would prefer "standard" - but this is a matter of personal taste).

However, in my view the attempt to define a Traveller "canon" is the attempt to define the realities of a non-real universe. While this can doubtless be very
interesting and sometimes useful, and can also bring a lot of fun, I can not
bring myself to see it as a very serious endeavor.
Oh, I agree about not taking it too seriously. However, as I've argued in another post, there's a very practical reason why a canon is important: It allows us all to use each other's work.


Hans
 
When I started playing back in 1983, we didn't do any fancy cost/revenue or other economic calculations to determine the kind of ships we tried for.
And you don't need any fancy economic calculations for determining what kind of ship PCs fly around in. PCs are special. They're played by players, for one thing.

Back when T20 came out, I reproached Hunter for retaining the old CT trade system instead of taking advantage of the work put into Far Trader and improving upon CT's system. He replied that they'd used the CT system because it worked.

I thought that was a very good answer. Having once worked that trade system up from a load of computers bought on a loan to three billion credits, I disagreed with him about the system actually working -- at least without a savvy referee to correct it's worst sillinesses (our ref allowed use to unload 63 multi-million credit computers bought at 30% for 300% on a world with a population level of 4 -- the rules said we could do that[*]), but that he believed they worked for running PC-crewed ships was a very good reason to use them.

But the background against which the PCs adventure isn't special. It has to make sense. If it really costs half again as much and takes twice as long to ship something by jump-1 than by jump-2, then few, if any, will ship long distance by jump-1.


Hans


[*] I haven't tried it out, but I suspect the version of the CT trade system in Interstellar Wars will work. At least, it has closed the hole we used to break the system.
 
I agree that -generally speaking- the notion of a world of some ten thousand people shelling out billions of credits for supercomputers defies imagination.

But while abuses of the rules need to be tempered by good refereeing, I don't think that most of the traders active on such worlds are any more native to it than the players. Sometimes it'll be some noble trying to bootstrap technology in his fief, or some corporate outpost. But more often than not, a lot of cargo available in nothing little worlds like that is getting bought and sold directly by other merchant ships, or by onworld factors and brokers intent on re-selling the cargo to the next ship coming through. Your jump-1 ship might not be doing the whole run down a 10-parsec main, but there'll be other ships doing the next leg.

The model to look at here is not modern express shipping, but age of sail shipping versus the caravans that came before. On the silk road, a load of silks, spices and whatnot would change hands, be bought and sold dozens of times as it travelled from east to west, suffering markups and attrition the whole way - which is why what got all the way to Europe was so expensive. Chinese sell to Persians sell to Arabs sell to Venetians sell to everybody else. Nobody in Venice put in an order for a ton of silk from China: they bought what the Arabs had for sale. That's how I look at jump-1 shipping.

Now, then you get groups of Dutch investors buying shares in ships to go straight to the spice islands, load up on nutmeg and come straight back, and sell it all in Amsterdam at whatever the market will bear, That's what I look at when I think of Jump-3 shipping. Maybe you'll get a few people buying passage on a ship like that, maybe the ship will take on paid cargo if there's empty hold space, but the real money's in the speculative cargo.
 
The model to look at here is not modern express shipping, but age of sail shipping versus the caravans that came before. On the silk road, a load of silks, spices and whatnot would change hands, be bought and sold dozens of times as it traveled from east to west, suffering markups and attrition the whole way - which is why what got all the way to Europe was so expensive. Chinese sell to Persians sell to Arabs sell to Venetians sell to everybody else. Nobody in Venice put in an order for a ton of silk from China: they bought what the Arabs had for sale. That's how I look at jump-1 shipping.
I think the model to look at is Age of Sail shipping. The Europeans had figured out that by sailing to China, they could buy silk directly and take it back to Europe, cutting out all those middle-men.

Now, then you get groups of Dutch investors buying shares in ships to go straight to the spice islands, load up on nutmeg and come straight back, and sell it all in Amsterdam at whatever the market will bear, That's what I look at when I think of Jump-3 shipping. Maybe you'll get a few people buying passage on a ship like that, maybe the ship will take on paid cargo if there's empty hold space, but the real money's in the speculative cargo.
Whereas I think of jump-3 shipping as, e.g., someone who figured out that there were hundreds of people each month traveling from Mora to Maitz and from there to Pallique, and if the bank would just loan him the money, he could jump from Mora to Pallique via Grille, getting there in two jumps instead of three and at roughly the same price, giving him a steady income with which to service the loan.


Hans
 
>I think the model to look at is Age of Sail shipping.
Absolutely - where Jump-1 ships are the equivalent of land caravans, or coast-hugging ships at best, and the Jump-2 or 3 ships fill the role that the European fleets filled.

>if the bank would just loan him the money, he could jump from Mora to Pallique via Grille, getting there in two jumps instead of three and at roughly the same price, giving him a steady income with which to service the loan.

Well, there's the rub. The number of people with enough swing and credibility (or the credits) to rate a loan for a long-jump ship will be small indeed. IMTU, those fellows lucky enough to rate a mustering out loan of a free trader are not your average schlubs. They're a kind of nobility, magnates in their own right, to have got that far. PCs wanting to arrange a ship's loan that march into a bank begging will be sent away with a flea in their ear, even if they're looking to buy a secondhand scout-courier. They'd be well advised to start schmoozing with the planetary nobility and get a list of backers together, and a few co-investors.
 
Apropos my initial post, I just got around to actually reading Leviathan. (1980! Heh.) Which explicitly assumes jump into empty hexes as an option. Reading is nifty! You find out all sorts of wonderful things.
 
And you don't need any fancy economic calculations for determining what kind of ship PCs fly around in. PCs are special. They're played by players, for one thing.

Back when T20 came out, I reproached Hunter for retaining the old CT trade system instead of taking advantage of the work put into Far Trader and improving upon CT's system. He replied that they'd used the CT system because it worked.

I thought that was a very good answer.

It is a good answer if it's true. Which, IMHO, it isn't.

The problem with CT's economics (as you noted) is that they allow players to benefit SERIOUSLY from just moving goods from place to place. This is a Bad Thing for 2 reasons:

1. It renders adventuring unprofitable by comparison, which forces the Referee to go to all kinds of trouble to create rationales for adventuring; and

2. It's economically absurd. In a free market system like CT envisions, super lucrative trade routes would attract hordes of ship operators, which would quickly eliminate the lucrative profits because of competitive pressures on pricing. So, such routes would exist for very short times, like "boom towns" on Earth in the 19th century.

But in a relatively static universe like the Imperium, there would be no "boom towns", since lucrative trade routes would have been identified for centuries.

Anyhow, my preferred course of action is simple -- a ship is generally assumed to operate at break even levels. Older ships that are paid off are assumed to have far higher maintenance costs, consuming much of the cash flow created by having no payments. Adventures furnish the opportunity to get ahead.
 
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The problem with CT's economics (as you noted) is that they allow players to benefit SERIOUSLY from just moving goods from place to place.


Tbeard,

We're forgetting something extremely important here. The only things any players are allowed to do in any RPG are those things which the GM allows.

The rules are not there to tie your hands. As long as your rulings as a GM maintain some level of internal consistency, you can do as you wish. A die roll on a LBB table is not a mandate, it's a suggestion.

It renders adventuring unprofitable by comparison, which forces the Referee to go to all kinds of trouble to create rationales for adventuring...

Adventuring is only unprofitable when you allow a roll on a table to rule your game.

It's economically absurd. In a free market system like CT envisions, super lucrative trade routes would attract hordes of ship operators, which would quickly eliminate the lucrative profits because of competitive pressures on pricing. So, such routes would exist for very short times, like "boom towns" on Earth in the 19th century.

Which was exactly what I told my players when I heavily modified their die rolls on the various trade tables.

As independent ship operators newly arrived in the region, they are NOT going to be able to blithely plug into some "Gravy Train" trade route between that hi-pop In world and T-prime Ag world.

And why not, you may ask?

Because such a route has already attracted shipping lines, large and small, who have forged long-term, stable relationships with producers and purchasers on a basis of proven and professional service, that's why. Lykes Lines move the millions of shipping containers between the US and China and not Jonas Grumby(1) of the SS Minnow. Similarly, outfits like Arekut or Al Morai move all the containers between Glisten and Aki and not Cap'n Blackie of the free trader Running Boil.

All the trade along the "Gravy Train" is already spoken for. The only stuff left are those crumbs which I - as the GM - allow and, as long as those crumbs are handed out with in an internally consistent manner, the players cannot grumble about "GM fiat" or "capriciousness".


Anyhow, my preferred course of action is simple...

Mine was simpler. Instead of reworking the entire economic system, I simply remembered that - as the the GM - the rules only work in the manner I say they do. I therefore applied the trade rolls in a logical, economically rational manner and didn't allow "gypsies" to carry the 57th Century version of Reeboks from Korea to France. Those jobs are almost always spoken for by large, stable, well known firms, something the players never are.

In this manner, taking risks by engaging in adventures is the primary way for the players to earn large (or even middling) sums of money.

Everyone needs to remember: The rules are a suggestion and only you as the GM rule.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Trivia Fact #11653: Jonas Grumby is the Skipper's name on Gilligan's Island. It was only mentioned once and then during the first episode. (Yes, I have no life.)
 
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Tbeard,

We're forgetting something extremely important here. The only things any players are allowed to do in any RPG are those things which the GM allows.

No, I'm not forgetting that. You'll note that my solution was to ignore the system in favor of a more reasonable one.

What I am saying is that the CT economics system is badly flawed, in terms of both realism and in terms of the effect it has on a campaign.

Everyone needs to remember: The rules are a suggestion and only you as the GM rule.

I'm sure my players would agree that I am willing to ruthlessly ignore or modify obnoxious rules. But that does not exculpate a lousy rule or its designer IMHO.

Trivia Fact #11653: Jonas Grumby is the Skipper's name on Gilligan's Island. It was only mentioned once and then during the first episode. (Yes, I have no life.)

Me neither. I knew that (and I knew that the professor was "Roy Heinkley" before that Brady Bunch movie spilled the beans).
 
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