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K'kree, how does such a race reach for the stars?

The Imperium really can't afford to start a war with the K'Kree. First, it would be too expensive (more like the Rim War than the relatively small Frontier Wars), and second it would mean pulling ships away from the Zho and Sol borders.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
The Imperium really can't afford to start a war with the K'Kree. First, it would be too expensive (more like the Rim War than the relatively small Frontier Wars), and second it would mean pulling ships away from the Zho and Sol borders.
First of all the Imperium doesn't ahve to start a war with teh K'kree, war has already been declared, whether the Imperium realizes it or not.

Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree you are providing back up, some fleet elements, escorts and some Marine Strikers to soften up hard targets. I am sure you could get cooperation from the Zhodani, since it would be relieving their border from Ihaeti, It would relieve pressure to Spinward and Rimward of the Imperium, and the Hivers would cooperate with shock troops contributed as well. (And the Aslan would be happy to have places to send Ihaeti, even without the K'kree saying they want to exterminate them.)
 
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.

Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...

Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
 
"Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree"

There are 7 sectors between them. Call it 270 parsecs. Assuming J-3, 2 weeks/jump, that's nearly 3.5 years just to get there.
 
Andrew,

kafka has already shown the solution to the transportation problem.

Just ship in ihatei (a few million to start should be enough) and then set them against the Lords of Thunder. It's small, it's isolated, and the 2000 Worlds likely doesn't care what happens to them.

After the Lords of Thunder finally become the Plates of Meat, then the Aslan have a perfect launching pad into the 2000 Worlds proper.

Yes, this is a (very) long term process, but that's OK. It keeps the Aslan busy, it keeps the most meddlesome K'kree busy. Heck, it probably even keeps the minor human states busy. And if you play it right, it becomes a fairly one-way trip, which allows the Imperium to try and do a little "manipulation" on the Aslan over that time, too.

So, after a century, the Imperium gains a large (billion+) friendly Aslan state populated with less anal-retentive Aslan.
 
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial navy would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.

Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.

A ground war on the other hand...
 
A handful of fanatics can do things that armies only dream of acheiving.

Sure some of the Imperial Navy is fanatical, but most are thinking of promotion and/or retirement.

A standup war can only get out of hand. For some reason I see the K'kree extensively virus bombing large population centres.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree"

There are 7 sectors between them. Call it 270 parsecs. Assuming J-3, 2 weeks/jump, that's nearly 3.5 years just to get there.
Ihaeti routinely travel in Low Berth. 3.5 years-10 years, there is land at the other end. Does it really matter? The Imperium could easily absorb the cost and relieve the pressure on the Spinward Marches, Reaver's Deep and several other sectors. At the same time you would be using the Aslan as a cat's paw against fanatics that are not viable in the first place. Kill all the carnivores. And tehy think that Humans are ecological disasters here on Terra. (And they make claims of global warming when the Earth goes through cycles naturally and it was warmer before the industrial revolution than it is now.
)
 
Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.

Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.

A ground war on the other hand...
TL15 Battledress, Tanks and APCs against lightly armored, light infantry? In open plains, because the K'kree don't inhabit airless rocks. I mean if it were a closed environment, or even city fighting then light infantry might have some chance, but on the steppes? Like the desert that is Tank country. The Imperium/Aslan/Hivers could use the rockball systems as staging areas, where the K'kree would have problems dislodging them and either use armor warfare or herbicide on the K'kree planets. Hell K'kree don't even like putting on vacsuits, even if they had them handy they would take a while to put on. A little VX goes a long way.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.

Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...

Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kafka47:
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.

Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...

Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
</font>[/QUOTE]Profit after a dietary adjustment to eliminate meat in the diet? How does this work? With no more carnivores in the ecosystem, the circle of life comes to an end. Carcasses litter the ground, disease runs rampant, prolific herbivores populate unchecked, even the not so prolific herbavores continue unchecked. The sick and lame are not culled from the herds. Inferior genes are allowed to breed. The food supply gets ravaged, natural selection takes a holiday, everything dies. Believe it or not carnivores and omnivoores (yes that includes man) have a place in the ecosystem, actually an important place in the system. Now some planets may not need, due to natural conditions on that planet, carnivores or omnivores, but I would be willing to bet those planets are the very rare exception not the rule.

To quote Disney, "It is all a part of the great circle of life."
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Profit after a dietary adjustment to eliminate meat in the diet? How does this work? With no more carnivores in the ecosystem, the circle of life comes to an end. Carcasses litter the ground, disease runs rampant, prolific herbivores populate unchecked, even the not so prolific herbavores continue unchecked. The sick and lame are not culled from the herds. Inferior genes are allowed to breed. The food supply gets ravaged, natural selection takes a holiday, everything dies. Believe it or not carnivores and omnivoores (yes that includes man) have a place in the ecosystem, actually an important place in the system. Now some planets may not need, due to natural conditions on that planet, carnivores or omnivores, but I would be willing to bet those planets are the very rare exception not the rule.
Now, this is not supported by Canon but commonsense. After depopulating many world around Kirur this way including their own satellite. The K'kree recognize the error of their fundamentalist beliefs (they are an intelligent species, afterall) through selective bioengineering they develop particular strains of bacteria that would act as reducers and restrain carnivores (in the animal world) but not eliminate. Seeing that they are a conservative species, they take the mandate to conserve very seriously. However, are as ruthless the Solomani when it comes to something that threatens their existance. Perhaps, they are the Australians of Chartered Space...

They do learn that most intelligent species when faced with the option extermination or conversion to a vegetarian diet that the K'kree as noted above have perfected through their careful studies of botany and cookery over 2000 Worlds to ensure an a healthy alternative. (Beer & Vegetarian pizza are better than being blown away, I ought think)

Therefore, think of placid landscapes/planetscapes where flora & fauna are meticuliously manicured as in an English estate, as opposed to a Russian estate of 18-19th century and you get the idea. Organized hunts of carnivores are done for sport whilst graceful herbivores are maintained.
 
IMTU I chose to reduce the K'Kree claustrophobia and herd behavior to make them a more serious threat. They still have these traits but they're not as strong and the K'Kree can more easily deal with them via technology.

I also made them a little more subtle in their approach to meat-eaters: they don't necessarily shoot them on sight, but they still intend to wipe them all out.
 
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.

Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.

Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.

Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
 
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
And, if this would be logistically feasible...think of the price that would be paid. The Imperium is still paying for the foolhardy use of the Vargr by the Vilani.

The honor debt alone would place such a burden on Imperial finances that it the 3I would be one enormous Vassal State of the Hierate...
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.

Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.

A ground war on the other hand...
TL15 Battledress, Tanks and APCs against lightly armored, light infantry? In open plains, because the K'kree don't inhabit airless rocks. I mean if it were a closed environment, or even city fighting then light infantry might have some chance, but on the steppes? Like the desert that is Tank country. The Imperium/Aslan/Hivers could use the rockball systems as staging areas, where the K'kree would have problems dislodging them and either use armor warfare or herbicide on the K'kree planets. Hell K'kree don't even like putting on vacsuits, even if they had them handy they would take a while to put on. A little VX goes a long way. </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, but just how lightly armored are the K'Kree? I boned up on them last night and according to the GT/AR2 they tend to carry a lot of protection and firepower per soldier; not quite an APC, but certainly more than a match for single Imperial grunt I would think (TL15 BD or no).
That's just my impression, but you've got a point about the K'Kree's limited ability and will to take airless bodies. I guess it would depened on how many regiments or divisions of "crazies" they could call up to fight. I think the book mentioned something about them having 40 million under arms. If one in ten is a "crazy," then that means 400,000 walking tanks (think WW2 Japanese mini-tanks here), backed up by their massive Grav-tanks.

But, like you implied, and like the book states, the K'Kree prefer to put themselves into favorable fighting situations, which themselves are difficult to achieve.

All I know is that I always wanted to pit one of my gaming groops against a K'Kree force, but none of us had the K'Kree alien modual at the time (it was sold out, or something). It would've been interesting
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Bhoins,

As mentioned by other, you really need to read about the K'Kree in GT:AR. Most of your questions are answered there.

Why did the K'Kree go into space? CT and MT's 'Lords of Thunder' explain that: They were afraid of being eaten. In LoT, the PC's pass down a museum of sorts aboard the G'naak generation ship. Charming videos showing K'Kree being hunted and eaten alive are presented. Once G'naak society on Kirur fell and/or was beaten by the K'Kree, the moon above was still full of those delightful critters. That's a good enough reason to go into space, don't you think?

As for the idea that the K'Kree are still on the 'warpath' somehow, I'm afraid that idea fails even basic scruntiny. They haven't expanded since the Hiver War, they're spread painfully thin across their empire, their worlds are ecological shambles held together by constant effort, and they can barely keep the lid on the territory they already hold and then only by means of genocide.

I'm no K'kree supporter, far from it actually, but the idea that they as a group somehow pose a threat to the other major races is laughable. GT:AR even mentions refugee societies of various g'naak flushed from the 2000 Worlds still 'holding out' on multi-world polities to trailing of the K'Kree. If the Steppelords are as powerful as you believe, why are those worlds still living?

GT:AR also presents the K'Kree trans-rift enclave from the point of view of the Vargr it faces. Put simply, that enclave is a prison that the K'kree cannot expand from and can only maintain at great effort. It is in the best interest of the Vargr that the K'Kree remain stuck to that particular 'tar baby'.

The idea of allowing ihatei to transit the Imperium in order to carve out new lands among the 200 Worlds is a non-starter. Others have pointed out the logistical impossibilities of it - whether you accept them or not - and the Imperium would be insane to plant another population of indepeendent Aslan to trailing. What does the Imperium recieve for this? Yet another cancerous growth on yet another border. Just what the doctor ordered, huh?

You also fail to understand that, unless they arrived in a multi-million sophont wave, the ihatei are doomed. Don't let the idiocy of MT's Alien Incursions foll you. The same book that claims they swamped the Imperial border also bithely states that the majority of ihatei groups number under 10 thousand. Picking off a few thousand Aslan, most of whom are not warriors, from whatever rock they've squatted on inside the 2000 Worlds will be well within the abilities of the K'Kree.

Finally, I wouldn't take the actions of an acknowledged extremist splinter group; the Lords of Thunder, to represent the species as a whole. As an empire, the K'Kree have turned away from expansion and conquest. The upper nobility realizes that their specie's religious goal of wiping the universe clean cannot be achieved. They still make mouth noises to that effect for public consumption, but they've come to a working arrangement with the universe as a whole - we don't expand and you don't come knocking.

Yes, various jihadist groups will still sally out of the 2000 Worlds on their religious quest and, yes, they will make life uncomfortable for those sophonts along the frontier but the 2000 Worlds as a whole will not back them. If you read M:1248 again you'll realize this. Without giving too much away, pay close attention to just what comes of the wreckage of the 2000 Worlds, just how big it is, and what relative little it accomplishes.

I'm not a fan of the K'Kree and usually used them as orc-like cannon fodder for my PCs in those few adventures I featured them. They are nasty, but they are brittle and they can barely control what they've already taken.


Sincerely,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.

Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.

Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.

Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Send them.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;) [/QB]
Unless, for some reason, the world happens to be Earth... go figure... ;)
 
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