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K'kree, how does such a race reach for the stars?

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.

Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.

Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.

Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
Terran Humans perhaps, and even not all of us here on Terra, but the Vilani are known for the Black War Option. And in this case, remember we didn't start it. It isn't the Humans that want to stomp out all Herbivores, or intelligent life that isn't human, or, in reality, given the no Carnivore dictates, all life that isn't K'kree or Grass.


Biological warfare option for dealing cheaply and effectively with K'kree. Dump tons of Marijuana Seeds on all planets inhabited by K'kree. They would grow like weeds (pun intended) get the K'kree stoned, and the K'kree would laze about talking about various philosophical subjects, get the munchies, eat more weed and begin the cycle again.



Why wouldn't shipping a few million Ihaeti be practical? You cold ship 4 million Ihaeti in cold sleep, with less than 10 million tons of shipping. Hell, call it 15 million and include transporting enough equipment to jump start a technological base. That is less than most Subsectors have in the Naval budget even to purpose build the ships. (And you could reuse them and go back for another load.) You use a couple Multi Fleet Task Forces and Imperial Marine Assault forces to establish LZs and turn them loose.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Send them.
Lies and slander. Sidusuli in simurki.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
And, if this would be logistically feasible...think of the price that would be paid. The Imperium is still paying for the foolhardy use of the Vargr by the Vilani.

The honor debt alone would place such a burden on Imperial finances that it the 3I would be one enormous Vassal State of the Hierate...
</font>[/QUOTE]But the Debt of Honor goes the other way. The Imperium is providing them with the opportunity to aquire land. It relieves the Ihaeti pressure from the hierate and destroys an enemy that would consider nothing but the total extinction of the Aslan race, which are Carnivores not Omnivores, a good outcome.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Unless, for some reason, the world happens to be Earth... go figure... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I figure the difference lies in the couple of thousand years between the Consolidation Wars and the Interstellar Wars. Tempora mutantur...


Hans
 
Larsen,
The big question isn't why the K'kree went to space, more like how. How does a claustrophobic race that can't stand to be alone and hates artificial environments develope space travel, especially interstellar space travel? How do they survive combat with another technological interstellar race that don't have those limitations?

Obviously how a fanatical threat that is on your doorstep can be ignored, is lack of belief or political will. (The Ostrich syndrome.)
 
Their first spacefarers were the crazies.

After them they began building the huge ships that they've used ever since. They didn't use rockets remember - it was straight to grav vehicles for them.

They outnumbered their moon dwelling G'naak by quite a considerable amount, and were the only race to develop the jump drive in their part of space.

They wouldn't really be much of a threat to the Imperium because of the superior TL of Imperial forces (according to MT/DGP) - the Hive Federation could probably totally outclass them now as well - TL16 computers give quite an advantage in HG combat ;)
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Their first spacefarers were the crazies.

After them they began building the huge ships that they've used ever since. They didn't use rockets remember - it was straight to grav vehicles for them.

They outnumbered their moon dwelling G'naak by quite a considerable amount, and were the only race to develop the jump drive in their part of space.

They wouldn't really be much of a threat to the Imperium because of the superior TL of Imperial forces (according to MT/DGP) - the Hive Federation could probably totally outclass them now as well - TL16 computers give quite an advantage in HG combat
;)
For CT yes.
For MT yes.
For TNE Not So.
For 1248 the scene set is much more equal with the virus infected ships they are using to fight for them.
omega.gif
 
Ugh. I'm trying to ignore the Borgified Cows.

I am finally getting to the point where I can use the K’Kree IMTU, having recently gotten GT Alien Races 2 and reading the Lords of Thunder material in MTD#4. GT presents them more as disillusioned Empire builders (at least at the top). Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect.

Ever since the war with the Hivers they've stopped the conquest and have looked increasingly inward. The leaders realize it's impossible to rid the 'verse of all meat eaters and are slowly reforming K'Kree society so there's more possibility for trade. They also realize that if the other major races knew about their extermination of several sophont species they'd likely get wiped out as well. I would moderate them even further than this.

Personally I don't see the K'Kree as being that capable in the long run against a major power. They need very specific worlds or use extensive terraforming, large expanses*, and their strategic and tactical plans require very specific conditions to win. K'Kree don't adapt well. However neither should they be underestimated. I just find the canon view of them as untenable.

* I need to go over population stuff; at the moment I'm thinking there are less K'Kree warriors than I'd thought
 
Originally posted by Casey:
Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect.
I use the LBB's and some MT and don't have much source material from the newer systems. I was quite surprised to find out that the K'kree had taken such a dark turn.
The initial article does mention a "hatred" of carnivores, but it's tempered by stating that K'kree will be "uneasy" in the prescence of anyone who has eaten meat and further goes on to discuss trade missions and diplomatic embassies.
When did they turn into ravening space-nazis?
If I ever get around to it, I'll be adding K'kree to MTU. But when I do, they'll be the "kinder, gentler" K'kree of the LBB's.
And that's the beauty of Traveller.


As to hardware: Striker has rules for the K'kree. Aside from not allowing individual basing, and requiring large amounts of crew space in vehicles, they don't seem very limiting. There's no indication of paralyzing claustrophobia or unwillingness to use vehicles. In fact, the K'kree seem like they would would be a very tough opponent.
 
Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Casey:
Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect.
I use the LBB's and some MT and don't have much source material from the newer systems. I was quite surprised to find out that the K'kree had taken such a dark turn.
The initial article does mention a "hatred" of carnivores, but it's tempered by stating that K'kree will be "uneasy" in the prescence of anyone who has eaten meat and further goes on to discuss trade missions and diplomatic embassies.
When did they turn into ravening space-nazis?
If I ever get around to it, I'll be adding K'kree to MTU. But when I do, they'll be the "kinder, gentler" K'kree of the LBB's.
And that's the beauty of Traveller.


As to hardware: Striker has rules for the K'kree. Aside from not allowing individual basing, and requiring large amounts of crew space in vehicles, they don't seem very limiting. There's no indication of paralyzing claustrophobia or unwillingness to use vehicles. In fact, the K'kree seem like they would would be a very tough opponent.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2.
Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2.
So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree.
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2.
Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2.
So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree.
Ahhh ... I don't have AM2, so there's part of my confusion. Thanks!
And "kinder, gentler" is purely relative. Any race that managed the climb to the top rung on the evolutionary ladder is probably neither kind nor gentle. ;)
 
Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2.
Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2.
So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree.
Ahhh ... I don't have AM2, so there's part of my confusion. Thanks!
And "kinder, gentler" is purely relative. Any race that managed the climb to the top rung on the evolutionary ladder is probably neither kind nor gentle. ;)
</font>[/QUOTE]In the case of the K'kree more like stampeeded and trampled.
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
The big question isn't why the K'kree went to space, more like how.
Bhoins,

Oh, sorry, I misread you. They supposedly jumped straight to gravitics and fusion power without all that messy (and small) mucking about in aircraft and chemical rockets. Having a moonful of G'Naak hanging over their head supposedly gave them a great R&D impetus.

Naturally, being a Whipsnade, I have a low and cunning mind. Traveller has always been wheels within wheels, look at the Aslan/Pathfinder stuff for example. Take another squint at the canonical K'Kree In Space Story.

Kirur's moon is full of the same G'Naak that so recently were eating K'Kree alive, so what? Why did the K'Kree feel that the solution included the necessity of landing infantry there? Wouldn't a hundred thousand or so nuc-tipped ballistic missiles and a few spy sats get the job done? No need to recruit 'crazies', no need to work out all the psychological bits that help their AFV/spacecraft crewmen stay just this side of sane; i.e. odor generators, subliminal sounds, optical illusions, etc. Why go through all that bother?

Unless the K'Kree never really developed gravitics and fusion power on their own.

The G'Naak on Kirur's moon had been using Kirur proper and the K'Kree on it as a hunting preserve and/or religio-social rite of passage site. Something happens to the parent society on the moon (their generation ship had already moved on)and the G'Naak on Kirur are suddenly stranded. The K'Kree slowly gain the upper hand, exterminate the Kirur-based G'Naak, and are left with all this stuf; i.e. air/rafts, small arms, powerplants, etc. They also know the moon still holds more G'Naak, G'naak that may be returning soon.

So, the K'Kree launch (pun intended) a crash (pun intended again) program to use the bits the G'Naak left behind to get to the moon and put an end to the problem. They are simply copying whatever was left. They don't understand it beyond a blackbox level and have none of the intermediate knowledge. Slagging the moon with nuc-warheads aboard chemical rocket boosters isn't an option beause the K'Kree don't know anything about nucs and rockets! All they do know is how to fight that G'Naak as infantry and kill them the old fashioned way; with bullets, hooves, and blades.

Every read Poul Anderson's High Crusade?

After finishing off the G'Naak with the help of copied G'Naak technological goodies, the K'Kree went back and began filling the rest of their technical knowledge.

How does a claustrophobic race that can't stand to be alone and hates artificial environments develope space travel, especially interstellar space travel?
Exactly how hard-wired are those limitations? CT's Hiver book suggests the Hivers were able to manipulate certain K'Kree societies into using meat sauces, enjoying solitude, and other habits seemingly at odds with the K'Kree's built-in, biological traits. (TNE has a much different story, one that I tend to believe first.)

So, how much of that claustrophobia is innate and how much of it is a cultural artifact? Ask the same question for all those other K'Kree behaviors. Are there really that many crazies in the K'Kree gene pool? Or is their behavior a bit more malleable, it bit more of a cultural artifact, than they care to admit?

How do they survive combat with another technological interstellar race that don't have those limitations?
Very, very, very poorly. That's why it's takes the effects of Virus on Chartered Space and a herd of Borgified Cows (blecch) for the K'Kree to become any threat whatsoever to the Chartered Space. Even then, the efforts of a clutch relatively minor polities - plus the rabbit-from-a-hat, D&D-ish, Incrediably Cinematic Series of Heroic Events(tm) - still stop the K'Kree cold.

GT:AR has the Vargr estimate of the K'Krees' chances and if anything it gives the K'Kree to much. The Hivers got hammered at first because they didn't have an army or navy. As for the other cases, happily for the K'Kree and unhappily for most of the sophonts they've met, the K'Kree always held the technological whip hand. Still, there are those omnivore/carnivore refugee polities to trailing that the 2000 Worlds hasn't been able to deal with.

Obviously how a fanatical threat that is on your doorstep can be ignored, is lack of belief or political will. (The Ostrich syndrome.) [/QB]

In CT, MT, and TNE, they aren't the threat you believe them to be. In M:1248, they are a threat because of the shattered nature of Chartered Space and, even then, they get handled.


Sincerely,
Bill
 
Accoding to the CT/AM2 they've always had a fanatical history with quatum leaps in technology; possibly due to massive cooperation among tribal factions' scientists and such, or possibly because there was simply no need to develop things like gunpowder until absoloutely neccesary.
 
Oh well, just like I prefer to use mostly pre-Alien Module Solomani with bits from the GT material I am going to do the same with the K'Kree IMTU. The fewer Loony Interstellar States (yes I am aware of what else LIS stands for
) IMTU the better.
 
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