Knights and Knighthood

[Blue Ghost]

So I seem to recall from the rules (and reading the wiki) that being a knight in the Imperium was strictly an honorary title. That is knights don't met out justice or have any official powers.

Is that right? Was that always the case?

 

[whulorigan]

So I seem to recall from the rules (and reading the wiki) that being a knight in the Imperium was strictly an honorary title. That is knights don't met out justice or have any official powers.

Is that right? Was that always the case?

Knighthood by itself is an honorific. But there are some positions of authority and administration or postings within the Imperial system that require a minimum Social Standing of Knighthood or higher to qualify. So there are some knights who do have authority and/or official administrative duties, but it is by virtue of having been assigned those responsibilities separately, but nevertheless by virtue of their Knighthood.

For example, under T⁵, every Imperial world that is not barren or under interdiction has an assigned Knight as Imperial Ambassador to the world. These are specifically known as Landed Knights, and may be hereditary.

Other Ceremonial Knights, or Knights holding a Rank/Administrative position, may be mid- or higher level functionaries within the Imperial Bureaucracy (such as in the Imperial Ministry of Justice, for example).

But most knighthoods are simply an honorific social distinction.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I guess I brought up the topic before years back, and I guess the thing that gets me is that given the "wild west" nature of much of the Imperium and its fringes, that the knight isn't more of a high-tech futuristic version of the medieval knight, complete with duties and responsibilities that come with traditional non-honorific knighthood, as opposed to today's knights who get the title, but have no power.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[GypsyComet]

I guess I brought up the topic before years back, and I guess the thing that gets me is that given the "wild west" nature of much of the Imperium and its fringes, that the knight isn't more of a high-tech futuristic version of the medieval knight, complete with duties and responsibilities that come with traditional non-honorific knighthood, as opposed to today's knights who get the title, but have no power.

That depends on the Knight. There is one Knight assigned on every world (bar a few, as noted), but that is a baseline, not an exclusive. Knighthoods typically go to people who deserve them, and those sorts are rarely going to sit on their tails and relax. The unattached Knights are the scary ones, since you never know where you'll encounter one.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I guess I need to crack all of T5 again.

During CT game sessions knights were like today's honorary knights; knights in title and deed in terms of some social accomplishment, but not with any military achievments, as a knight was expected to do up to the late 19th or early 20th century.

It seems like a real story / adventure opportunity that a knight is commissioned as a knight to do "knightly" things throughout the Imperium and beyond. Rescue damsels in distress, great deeds brave and bold...slay the occasional dragon and so forth.

Just my gut reaction here.

 

[Lycanorukke]

It seems like a real story / adventure opportunity that a knight is commissioned as a knight to do "knightly" things throughout the Imperium and beyond. Rescue damsels in distress, great deeds brave and bold...slay the occasional dragon and so forth.

What you do here is what they did back when 'knights' were a thing. Form 'Orders of Knights'.

A generic knight is just someone with a fancy title, a bit of social status, and a minor amount of authority - aka the 'Honour Knights'.

However if the Knight is of an Order, they have a lot more authority as they can technically they can call other members of the Order to help them. Also they have the authority of the _Sponsor_ of the Order to back them up. If "Sir Blah or the Order of the Emperors Ass Kickers" shows up, even higher Nobles are going to be wary. He'll still be treated as a Knight, but can expect a lot more leeway as the head of his order is the Emperor.

Orders also have a 'mission' so to speak. The knightly order was formed to accomplish something as well as having a code of conduct. It would be quite easy to insert the do "great deeds, correct injustices and rescue damsels" here as their mission statement.

So while you could have a few honorary knights hanging around the offices of the Starport in "Future Tombstone", no one would really give them a second thought. But when a Knight of an Order touches down, people may pay attention (depending on what the Order is).

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, in days of yore a knight evolved from a cavalry man who might or might not have some armor, to a "heavy tank", even in the 1100's with some extra responsibilities … I'll post some fan fic, and see what people think.

 

[Ulsyus]

Whulorigan's post about the rank and roles being separate doesn't mean that the rank couldn't be conferred upon a character in order to give them the social status required to back up the authority of a role handed out to them. Eg: Bob the ex-scout does some fascinating things identifying fraudulent excise practices of a large shipping firm, so the sector Duke then knights him and gives him a series of tasks based around doing the same thing but across another couple of systems, reporting back to the Duke on his findings.

The advantage would be tying successful troubleshooters to their noble patron while also giving them the authority to further the patrons interests.

 

[mike wightman]

Wouldn't it be fun if an Imperial knight was/is a 'man on the ground' or troubleshooter for the subsector duke...

 

[GypsyComet]

Wouldn't it be fun if an Imperial knight was/is a 'man on the ground' or troubleshooter for the subsector duke...

The "Knight Retainer" rank, technically a step below Imperial Knights as they are created by Dukes, is one approach to that role. Not all Dukes have or want Knight Retainers, as the presumption of need is usually attached to High (Landed) Dukes, and having Knight Retainers (or Knights Retainer, depending on the linguistic influences of a region) that have not also been submitted to the Imperial process is considered presumptuous and/or suspicious.

That said, Nobles employ Knights, whether Imperial, Retainer, Freelance/Errant, or co-interested, all the time. Knights form a pre-vetted labor pool, of sorts.

 

[mike wightman]

I was thinking of something along the lines of a knight automatically qualifying for Traveller's membership and being treated a bit like a detached duty scout - free room and board at any Imperial base, deadheading on scoutships and IN ships.

But.

Any Imperial officer can 'request' their service, as can any higher tier Imperial noble or Imperial Ministry

 

[Blue Ghost]

Interesting. Historically a retainer was a man at arms, but his role evolved as did the knights.

 

[GypsyComet]

I was thinking of something along the lines of a knight automatically qualifying for Traveller's membership and being treated a bit like a detached duty scout - free room and board at any Imperial base, deadheading on scoutships and IN ships.

There was an article in one of the various magazines back in the CT days about noble privilege. Since the types Traveller has now weren't in place yet, the article instead had a table of random benefits. One of those was Right of Passage, by which a noble could demand, and in most cases expect to get, passage on in-service ships of the Navy or Scouts. It did mention that abuse was not wise, as eventually the Navy would take steps to not be where you were, or come up with the right reasons to deny you.

TAS is a separate organization in Canon, with no formal connection to the Nobility. That's not to say you couldn't have membership paid for by prior service, but even the nobility will sometimes fail the blacklist check...

 

[GypsyComet]

Interesting. Historically a retainer was a man at arms, but his role evolved as did the knights.

I will admit to using a fair amount of Dune's implied and implicit social structures in *my* thinking*, so even though Gurney Halleck or poor put-upon Duncan Idaho were not stated to be Knights (since Dune didn't use the title, IIRC), in practice, they operated with the explicit approval and direction of Leto and had Ducal authority behind them if they needed it, but were just another body as far as any other household was concerned. They fit the idea of the Knight Retainer comfortably.

Knights Retainer do not rule out the existence of "just" Retainers, either.

 

[aramis]

Wouldn't it be fun if an Imperial knight was/is a 'man on the ground' or troubleshooter for the subsector duke...

Given that the local knights are beheld to the Archdukes and/or the Emperor for their titles, not the sector nor subsector dukes, it's a tenuous political move... the promise of being suggested for a knighthood is a lure to service, but once it's granted, the grantor is the AD or the Emperor, and the local recommending noble has little authority.

Do you really want your best troubleshooter answering to the Archduke instead of you?

 

[GypsyComet]

Do you really want your best troubleshooter answering to the Archduke instead of you?

Depends on how you feel about the Archduke, and vice versa, but I could see Knights working within the local power structure when that works, and dispatching straight to the Domain capital when it doesn't. Knights are largely outside the peerage structure for reasons that those peers occasionally forget...

 

[mike wightman]

Given that the local knights are beheld to the Archdukes and/or the Emperor for their titles, not the sector nor subsector dukes, it's a tenuous political move... the promise of being suggested for a knighthood is a lure to service, but once it's granted, the grantor is the AD or the Emperor, and the local recommending noble has little authority.

Do you really want your best troubleshooter answering to the Archduke instead of you?

That's why you have them answerable to any Imperial noble that outranks them, every Imperial military officer regardless of rank and every Ministry officer equivalent.

Unless Marc has rectoconned it the archdukes are pretty powerless in 1105, while subsector dukes in frontier sectors have to make a lot more difficult decisions in the Emperor's name, and there is no formal sector duke rank.
As to subsector dukes conferring knighthood, they grant it in their status as Emperor on the spot, the knight is in the Imperium's service, but it is the local duke that has to fill in the forms and hand over the new id card.

My idea is mainly to provide plot hook and scenario intros. If a group in their free trader happens to have Sir Donder in their midst so what?
What about if at any port of call there may be an Ministry official who needs a job doing, as a knight Sir Donder is duty bound to get involved.

 

[mike wightman]

Depends on how you feel about the Archduke, and vice versa, but I could see Knights working within the local power structure when that works, and dispatching straight to the Domain capital when it doesn't. Knights are largely outside the peerage structure for reasons that those peers occasionally forget...

Exactly. the knights become the odd job men...

 

[Blue Ghost]

I will admit to using a fair amount of Dune's implied and implicit social structures in *my* thinking*, so even though Gurney Halleck or poor put-upon Duncan Idaho were not stated to be Knights (since Dune didn't use the title, IIRC), in practice, they operated with the explicit approval and direction of Leto and had Ducal authority behind them if they needed it, but were just another body as far as any other household was concerned. They fit the idea of the Knight Retainer comfortably.

Knights Retainer do not rule out the existence of "just" Retainers, either.

Dune aside, historically the knight was the local law, or a facet of it. Everyone was expected to enforce it pre-law-enforcement-agency days, but the knight was empowered to "the right to bear arms and the powers to meet justice", to quote / paraphrase from Boorman's "Excalibur".

A knight could make a knight in days of yore. That's how your increased your army strength … bring your knights and their squires, see the enemy army out number you, knight your squires, result; instant win (hopefully).

I'm not saying I'm against the OTU's stance on knighthood, but if the knight is a social or bureaucratic functionary, then, to me at least, that takes away some potential intrigue or adventure material. Then again, it is the Imperium and not medieval Europe, so …

I dunno. I'm just curious about it. YTU and YMMV and all that.

 

[aramis]

I'm not saying I'm against the OTU's stance on knighthood, but if the knight is a social or bureaucratic functionary, then, to me at least, that takes away some potential intrigue or adventure material. Then again, it is the Imperium and not medieval Europe, so …

The OTU owes a lot more to the victorian era nobility than to the medieval - and from the renaissance on, pretty much only the crown gets to dub knights.

And knights are often functionaries and bureaucrats from the victorian onward, and in England before, QV, heck, before King Henry VIII even, many government bureaucrats were knights, and many knights were hereditary peers, not actual combat-trained men.

Traveller owes far more to the age of sail, which really is 1650-1850...
... knighthoods for bureaucrats and war heroes, titles hereditary but without rulership, a voting peerage...