Sure, and I totally get that, and that's been my impression since I first cracked the rule book way back when. I'm just old fashioned I guess.
Knights and Knighthood
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Think about the actual game and the setting.
There are two ways to be a knight - roll an 11 during character creation or gain soc through service and mustering out.
We know in the setting that the subsector duke and the subsector is the lowest tier of Imperial government, but the Imperium still needs men on the ground to do stuff at all the worlds in a subsector.
This is where the PCs come in. A PC of knightly rank can be directed to do stuff, much more adventuring potential.
There are two ways to be a knight - roll an 11 during character creation or gain soc through service and mustering out.
We know in the setting that the subsector duke and the subsector is the lowest tier of Imperial government, but the Imperium still needs men on the ground to do stuff at all the worlds in a subsector.
This is where the PCs come in. A PC of knightly rank can be directed to do stuff, much more adventuring potential.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Imperial Knights are still Nobility in the legal sense, and can be asked to be the Law in Imperial territory. Landed Knights likely assume this function on Low Pop worlds as a natural consequence, while the Knight Resident on a High Pop is more likely to be one of many, and more of an Imperial Liaison. Their role is up to the individual Knight, but Knights Resident are chosen, typically from the Knights native to a world, according to the needs of that world.
They are all different. This cannot be stressed enough. Ten Thousand Systems across hundreds of cultural regions big and small, local languages and mores, neighbors good and bad.
The classic picture of Medieval Knights is one of an insular group of heavily armed men who do their own training and recruiting, sometimes under the auspices of a Monarch, and sometimes not. The independent Orders of the earlier period were only tolerated until the kingdoms grew enough to regard stateless groups of heavily armed men a threat. After than you see them being disbanded (violently in a few famous cases) or incorporated into one State or another, often with the Kings becoming arbiters of membership.
Imperial Knights are distinctly from the Big Chuck, Arthur, and late British models: individual Trusted Men (and "men") of the King assigned to various noble tasks both foreign and domestic, sedentary and violent. Because only a fraction of them are Residents, Imperial Knights actually fill most of the historical roles the Knight held. All of the opportunities for interest and intrigue are there, if not always together in one Knight.
The Honor Knights are your late British socialites AND the wandering freelancers with just enough Title to be dangerous.
The Ceremonial Knights have a job to do that requires clout, and the Title provides it. Lawmen, Portmasters, and Ambassadors, among other jobs.
The Landed, or Knights Resident, are those with Keep and Land, peasants to guard (figuratively speaking), and a public face that keeps office hours. They might *also* wear Lawman, Portmaster, and Ambassador hats if the world population is small enough, but their job is the BE the Imperium personified for the people of their world.
Any of the three types can also be the landlord for the office building you rent a piece of in the Port District, or be the owner of that nice resort on the coast, though this is more common amongst the higher Titles.
Yeah, that's kind of what Aramis and I were talking about, and what you alluded to earlier.
I seem to recall the Templars made their last stand on either Malta or Cyprus. More later … gotta go conquer a kingdom.
I seem to recall the Templars made their last stand on either Malta or Cyprus. More later … gotta go conquer a kingdom.
One fief I gave to a PC was a barony comprising one building, and the land it sat upon... 2500 m² of property, and a 200 story mixed use office building thereupon. In downtown Regni (on Regina). A wonderful yet annoying fief - he had a social club, and a hunting trophy lounge... and ran a mercenary hiring hall out of it. And a hunting expedition service, taking stupid wealthy people to hunt for something that thinks of them as a snack, and can bite through battle dress....
That's fun gaming - useful and challenging. (As opposed to "useless and annoying", which is how a lot of others want to handle PC fiefs...)
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
that would have been the Templars contemporaries, the Knights Hospitaller, aka the knights of St John.
They moved form Jerusalem, to Rhodes, to Malta as they were progressively kicked out of the previous home by Islamic expansion.
The Templars moved back to france, and then were destroyed by the French king (or went underground to seek the Pieces of Eden
)Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The equites (/ˈɛkwɪtiːz/; Latin: eques nom. singular; sometimes referred to as "knights" in modern times) constituted the second of the property-based classes of ancient Rome, ranking below the senatorial class. A member of the equestrian order was known as an eques (plural: equites).
Description[edit]
During the Roman kingdom and the 1st century of the Republic, legionary cavalry was recruited exclusively from the ranks of the patricians, who were expected to provide six centuriae of cavalry (300 horses for each consular legion). Around 400 BC, 12 more centuriae of cavalry were established and these included non-patricians (plebeians). Around 300 BC the Samnite Wars obliged Rome to double the normal annual military levy from two to four legions, doubling the cavalry levy from 600 to 1,200 horses. Legionary cavalry started to recruit wealthier citizens from outside the 18 centuriae. These new recruits came from the First Class of commoners in the centuriate organisation and were not granted the same privileges.
By the time of the Second Punic War (218–202 BC), all the members of the First Class of commoners were required to serve as cavalrymen. The presence of equites in the Roman cavalry diminished steadily in the period 200–88 BC as only equites could serve as the army's senior officers; as the number of legions proliferated fewer were available for ordinary cavalry service. After c. 88 BC, equites were no longer drafted into the legionary cavalry, although they remained technically liable to such service throughout the Principate era (to AD 284). They continued to supply the senior officers of the army throughout the Principate.
With the exception of the purely hereditary patricians, the equites were originally defined by a property threshold. The rank was passed from father to son, although members of the order who at the regular quinquennial census no longer met the property requirement were usually removed from the order's rolls by the Roman censors. In the late Republic, the property threshold stood at 50,000 denarii and was doubled to 100,000 by the emperor Augustus (sole rule 30 BC – AD 14) – roughly the equivalent to the annual salaries of 450 contemporary legionaries.
In the later Republican period, Roman Senators and their offspring became an unofficial elite within the equestrian order. As senators' ability to engage in commerce was strictly limited by law, the bulk of non-agricultural activities were in the hands of non-senatorial equites. As well as holding large landed estates, equites came to dominate mining, shipping and manufacturing industry. In particular, tax farming companies (publicani) were almost all in the hands of equites.
Under Augustus, the senatorial elite was given formal status (as the ordo senatorius) with a higher wealth threshold (250,000 denarii, or the pay of 1,100 legionaries) and superior rank and privileges to ordinary equites. During the Principate, equites filled the senior administrative and military posts of the imperial government. There was a clear division between jobs reserved for senators (the most senior) and those reserved for non-senatorial equites. But the career structure of both groups was broadly similar: a period of junior administrative posts in Rome or Italy, followed by a period (normally a decade) of military service as a senior army officer, followed by senior administrative or military posts in the provinces. Senators and equites formed a tiny elite of under 10,000 members who monopolised political, military and economic power in an empire of about 60 million inhabitants.
During the 3rd century AD, power shifted from the Italian aristocracy to a class of equites who had earned their membership by distinguished military service, often rising from the ranks: career military officers from the provinces (especially the Balkan provinces) who displaced the Italian aristocrats in the top military posts, and under Diocletian (ruled 284–305) from the top civilian positions also. This effectively reduced the Italian aristocracy to an idle, but immensely wealthy group of large landowners. During the 4th century, the status of equites was debased to insignificance by excessive grants of the rank. At the same time the ranks of senators were swollen to over 4,000 by the establishment of a second senate in Constantinople and the tripling of the membership of both senates. The senatorial order of the 4th century was thus the equivalent of the equestrian order of the Principate.
Description[edit]
During the Roman kingdom and the 1st century of the Republic, legionary cavalry was recruited exclusively from the ranks of the patricians, who were expected to provide six centuriae of cavalry (300 horses for each consular legion). Around 400 BC, 12 more centuriae of cavalry were established and these included non-patricians (plebeians). Around 300 BC the Samnite Wars obliged Rome to double the normal annual military levy from two to four legions, doubling the cavalry levy from 600 to 1,200 horses. Legionary cavalry started to recruit wealthier citizens from outside the 18 centuriae. These new recruits came from the First Class of commoners in the centuriate organisation and were not granted the same privileges.
By the time of the Second Punic War (218–202 BC), all the members of the First Class of commoners were required to serve as cavalrymen. The presence of equites in the Roman cavalry diminished steadily in the period 200–88 BC as only equites could serve as the army's senior officers; as the number of legions proliferated fewer were available for ordinary cavalry service. After c. 88 BC, equites were no longer drafted into the legionary cavalry, although they remained technically liable to such service throughout the Principate era (to AD 284). They continued to supply the senior officers of the army throughout the Principate.
With the exception of the purely hereditary patricians, the equites were originally defined by a property threshold. The rank was passed from father to son, although members of the order who at the regular quinquennial census no longer met the property requirement were usually removed from the order's rolls by the Roman censors. In the late Republic, the property threshold stood at 50,000 denarii and was doubled to 100,000 by the emperor Augustus (sole rule 30 BC – AD 14) – roughly the equivalent to the annual salaries of 450 contemporary legionaries.
In the later Republican period, Roman Senators and their offspring became an unofficial elite within the equestrian order. As senators' ability to engage in commerce was strictly limited by law, the bulk of non-agricultural activities were in the hands of non-senatorial equites. As well as holding large landed estates, equites came to dominate mining, shipping and manufacturing industry. In particular, tax farming companies (publicani) were almost all in the hands of equites.
Under Augustus, the senatorial elite was given formal status (as the ordo senatorius) with a higher wealth threshold (250,000 denarii, or the pay of 1,100 legionaries) and superior rank and privileges to ordinary equites. During the Principate, equites filled the senior administrative and military posts of the imperial government. There was a clear division between jobs reserved for senators (the most senior) and those reserved for non-senatorial equites. But the career structure of both groups was broadly similar: a period of junior administrative posts in Rome or Italy, followed by a period (normally a decade) of military service as a senior army officer, followed by senior administrative or military posts in the provinces. Senators and equites formed a tiny elite of under 10,000 members who monopolised political, military and economic power in an empire of about 60 million inhabitants.
During the 3rd century AD, power shifted from the Italian aristocracy to a class of equites who had earned their membership by distinguished military service, often rising from the ranks: career military officers from the provinces (especially the Balkan provinces) who displaced the Italian aristocrats in the top military posts, and under Diocletian (ruled 284–305) from the top civilian positions also. This effectively reduced the Italian aristocracy to an idle, but immensely wealthy group of large landowners. During the 4th century, the status of equites was debased to insignificance by excessive grants of the rank. At the same time the ranks of senators were swollen to over 4,000 by the establishment of a second senate in Constantinople and the tripling of the membership of both senates. The senatorial order of the 4th century was thus the equivalent of the equestrian order of the Principate.
Well, even before that I think the Greeks, Sumerians, et al, had their elite classes. The predecessors of knights.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
that would have been the Templars contemporaries, the Knights Hospitaller, aka the knights of St John.
They moved form Jerusalem, to Rhodes, to Malta as they were progressively kicked out of the previous home by Islamic expansion.
The Templars moved back to france, and then were destroyed by the French king (or went underground to seek the Pieces of Eden
However, at one point the Knights Templar even owned the entire island of Cyprus, having purchased it from Richard II of England in 1192 (they sold it to Guy of Lusignan later the same year). Their headquarters moved from Acre to Limassol on the island of Cyprus in 1291, and they also attempted to maintain a garrison on tiny Arwad Island, just off the coast from Tortosa. In 1300, there was some attempt to engage in coordinated military efforts with the Mongols via a new invasion force at Arwad. In 1302 or 1303, however, the Templars lost the island to the Egyptian Mamluk Sultanate in the Siege of Arwad. With the island gone, the Crusaders lost their last foothold in the Holy Land.
Their headquarters remained on Cyprus until the order was "arrested" in 1307. In 1312, Pope Clement V issued a series of papal bulls, including Vox in excelso, which officially dissolved the order, and Ad providam, which turned over most Templar assets to the Hospitallers.
That has the ring of truth to it. My Osprey books are in storage.
The three big orders during the early medieval period were; the Templars, the Hospitallars and the Teutonic. I think there were several other, some of which subsidiaries, but from those rose attempts to form other orders. And eventually those that survived became the honorary orders we know today.
I think there's adventure material to be mined here.
The three big orders during the early medieval period were; the Templars, the Hospitallars and the Teutonic. I think there were several other, some of which subsidiaries, but from those rose attempts to form other orders. And eventually those that survived became the honorary orders we know today.
I think there's adventure material to be mined here.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I seem to recall the Templars preceded the Hospitaller order, but my memory isn't that good on that. In any event, there be orders out there.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
The outlawed Psionic Orders were a topic of adventure in MT. The idea that the Imperium, or the later conquered corners of it (like Old Expanses or the back-and-forth areas around Sol), has had Orders of Knighthood or other Fraternal Militant organizations that didn't make the transition to Imperial rule certainly has potential. Using the Crusade angle works very well in the Daibei area, as such organizations might have arisen during the Long Night to combat the encroaching Aslan but were brushed aside, disenfranchised, and eventually criminalized for actions that met their centuries old traditions and missions but were not acceptable to the Imperium. I think similar could be found in Trojan Reach, where (inspiration) the Ordo Tobia waged war against the denizens of the deeper Reach during the early Imperial years, but refused to acknowledge diplomatic solutions reached as the Imperial border solidified...
According to a serial adventure in Challenge magazine, the Order of the White Star is still lurking around. I managed to get a knighthood in that order from Marc from the T5 kickstarter.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Which is why I said "outlawed" and not "extinct".
MThompson016
SOC-12
Back on the topic, I devised a Chivalric order for my use last year. I stole liberally from the Order of the British Empire, Order of Australia, and the Legion of Honor. At the top, there are Knights and Dames, but there's recognition of other people.
The way I see it, the Emperor is going to be the sovereign of any order in the Imperium. Sector and Subsector Dukes can apply the the Emperor for the right to found an order for their demense, and the founding Ducal title serves as Grand Master. The Emperor has ultimate fealty of the knights, but the Orders are pretty independent of each other. For some, it gives them a place in the hierarchy, others, it's the ability to do a job for the Good of the Imperium (in theory...). Of course, getting a knighthood one of the Archducal or Imperial Orders is a goal.
The way I see it, the Emperor is going to be the sovereign of any order in the Imperium. Sector and Subsector Dukes can apply the the Emperor for the right to found an order for their demense, and the founding Ducal title serves as Grand Master. The Emperor has ultimate fealty of the knights, but the Orders are pretty independent of each other. For some, it gives them a place in the hierarchy, others, it's the ability to do a job for the Good of the Imperium (in theory...). Of course, getting a knighthood one of the Archducal or Imperial Orders is a goal.
I recall such from Digest, did Challenge run one also or are you having a mag mix-up?
Right you are:
TD 14: Ghost Ship
TD 15: Mistaken Identity
TD 16: Sword of Arthur
TD 17: Psionic Knights
