Largest private yacht

[aramis]

For combined tonnage I still see the need for only one engineer. Starting with the CT MD of 3dtons and then the HG combined tonnage of 39dtonnes.

As I see it the fractional engineer requirement of the CT drives plus the fractional engineer requirement of the HG drives should equal One.
[snip]
What are your thoughts?

I used pure HG design; it borrows Bk2 crewing for sub 1000Td ships.

I always round crew requirements up, never down, except when the rules explicitly require rounding down. For ships under 1000Td, it's one engineer per 35 tons.

Note the Type M in TTB: JD J, PP J, MD C, 3 Engineers
50 JD J
28 PP J
_5 MD C
83 Total Drive Tonnage.
That, divided by 35, is 2.37.
If rounding down, it would need only 2 engineers
If rounding normal, it would round down.
Therefore, it rounded up.

The Merc Cruiser (Type C) has 4 Engineers
65 JD M
23 MD M
37 PP M
125 total, 3.57 crew

The Patrol Cutter (Type T) has 3
35 JD F
15 MD H
25 PP H
75 Total, 2.14 calculation.

The pattern is rounding up.

 

[Vladika]

I used pure HG design; it borrows Bk2 crewing for sub 1000Td ships.

I always round crew requirements up, never down, except when the rules explicitly require rounding down. For ships under 1000Td, it's one engineer per 35 tons...

...The pattern is rounding up.

Hmmmm good point.

How about a 2000dtonne ship using a CT MD "Z" 47tonnes

47-35=12

(1-(12/35)) x 100= 65 [rounded]

So, two engineers required but, would the second engineer be allowed to handle 65dtonnes of HG drives at that point?

I see it as a yes but open to other thoughts.

This makes for some very interesting Warships in the 1000-2000dtonne range.

 

[McPerth]

I appreciate the use of both HG and CT drives in the same ship.

Where do you see that?

I see a 7% of the dtonnage for JD, an 1% for MD and a 6% for PP, just the numbers HG gives us for a J6 M1 ship...

What I wonder about is your need for two engineers in this particular case. Do you figure one for the CT MD and one for the HG PP&JD due to different familiarity of the two types of drives or for combined tonnage reasons?

For combined tonnage I still see the need for only one engineer. Starting with the CT MD of 3dtons and then the HG combined tonnage of 39dtonnes.

As I see it the fractional engineer requirement of the CT drives plus the fractional engineer requirement of the HG drives should equal One.

Ergo:

(1-(3/35)) x 100=91 (rounded down)

​

Going back to the 300dton design it would seem only one engineer would be required tonnage wise.

This frees up another Stateroom. Pretty critical for the ship in question considering its purpose.

What are your thoughts?

Here you're right in that in HG you need one engineer per 100 dtons of drives (not 35 as in Bk2), so a single engineer should be enough...

 

[Vladika]

Where do you see that?

I see a 7% of the dtonnage for JD, an 1% for MD and a 6% for PP, just the numbers HG gives us for a J6 M1 ship...

HG MD1 is 2% and goes up 3% per drive number after that. Aramis used the Book 2 letter "B" MD.

Here you're right in that in HG you need one engineer per 100 dtons of drives (not 35 as in Bk2), so a single engineer should be enough...

Here aramis used the following rule.

CREW

If the ship is 1,000 tons or under, then the rules stated in Book 2 should be followed. - HG p32

I see his point, but I prefer to think that if Book 2 Drives use Book 2 fuel they should also use Book 2 engineers. Still he is right according to HG. I guess crews for 1,000dt and under are a bit different as crews for 20,000dt and over are a bit different.

My calculations were for a hybrid engineering room with drives from BOTH HG & CT.

 

[McPerth]

HG MD1 is 2% and goes up 3% per drive number after that. Aramis used the Book 2 letter "B" MD.

Woops... I missremembered the formula for MD as 3xN-2 instead of 3xN-1...

I'm afraid that happens when you don't have the books handly and talk from memory...

Then, the MD would need 6 dtons, leaving only 10 dt of payload (enough for 2 staterooms and 2 turrets), instead of the 13 Aramis told about....

Here aramis used the following rule.

I see his point, but I prefer to think that if Book 2 Drives use Book 2 fuel they should also use Book 2 engineers. Still he is right according to HG. I guess crews for 1,000dt and under are a bit different as crews for 20,000dt and over are a bit different.

My calculations were for a hybrid engineering room with drives from BOTH HG & CT.

Yes, I realized now there were some posts after the one of yours I quoted. Reading too quick, I guess...

I also always assumed the engineers needed were rounded up, when making calculations for them.

 

[Vladika]

Woops... I missremembered the formula for MD as 3xN-2 instead of 3xN-1...

I'm afraid that happens when you don't have the books handly and talk from memory...

Then, the MD would need 6 dtons, leaving only 10 dt of payload (enough for 2 staterooms and 2 turrets), instead of the 13 Aramis told about....



Yes, I realized now there were some posts after the one of yours I quoted. Reading too quick, I guess...

I also always assumed the engineers needed were rounded up, when making calculations for them.

I believe they are in fact rounded up. For my example of a Book 2 47 tonne drive it will take 2 engineers. I simply suggest that the second engineer could either handle 23 more tonnes of Book 2 Drives OR an additional 65 tonnes of HG drives.

 

[aramis]

Where do you see that?

I see a 7% of the dtonnage for JD, an 1% for MD and a 6% for PP, just the numbers HG gives us for a J6 M1 ship...



Here you're right in that in HG you need one engineer per 100 dtons of drives (not 35 as in Bk2), so a single engineer should be enough...

HG uses Bk2 crew rates for below 1000Td. It doesn't matter whether the drives are Bk2 or Bk5 drives... except for the size of the drives.

Bk2 JDrives are 2.5% of hull per Jn for most of the range, with a 5Td addition;
Bk5 JDrives are 1% of hull with a 1% of hull addition.

Bk2 MDrives are 1% of hull per G, with a -1Td modifier;
Bk5 MDrives are 3% of hull per G, with a -1% of hull modifier.

Bk2 PP are 1.5% of hull per rating, with a +1 ton base;
Bk5 are 1% (TL15) to 3% (TL9) per ton with no addition.

So... Bk5 JDrives are better except for the 2000-5000Td range (where N+ Bk2 drives alter the formula)

Above that 1000Td ship, you split out the difference between drive engineers and ship maintenance...
Assuming no ships troops, that 1001Td 100TdDrives is 1 drive engineer, and 3 maintenance - one MORE than the Bk2 formula (which has no service/maintenance crew), but can drop 1 of those by adding at least 3 marines.

 

[esampson]

. . .
It's at this point where I'd consider it a viable "Yacht"...
A courier should increase the crew by going DO, add 3 turrets, and drives for 2G, and having one ton of cargo.

Yes, but the point is that it isn't a yacht. It is merely a 'launch' for the yacht. As Ranke said, this vessel is more filling the role of a private jet then yacht. It is simply able to 'land' on the yacht. This way if the owner has a sudden need to make a longer jump because of business or personal reasons he has the capability.

In space all the various sub-ships would basically be launches whereas on a 'wet' yacht you might have multiple boats (for crew and owner) and a helicopter.

Incidentally, as far as what to do with all the space on a 25 or 50kton yacht I would imagine that the owner would quite possibly want a collection of ground and grav vehicles on board, again, both for crew and for personal use. When the ship makes planetfall (or orbit) it would be more practical to not have to rent vehicles for hauling supplies and for touring around town. Depending upon the owner it is possible for this collection to be quite extensive (to the point where the collection might require crew of its own).

 

[esampson]

So some quick figures; for a 25kton tech 15 ship with Jump-4 Manuever-2 Power-4 you end up with 10ktons after engines, bridge, and fuel for jump-4 and 28 days of power.

There's quite a few variation on crew formulas but going off the formula in High Guard you end up with a command crew of 13, engineering crew of 35, and service crew of 75. Engineering crew is suppose to be 10% officers and 20% petty officers. Just for the sake of numbers I broke down service crew using the same formula. This ended up giving me 25 officers (command crew plus engineering and service officers), 22 petty officers, and 76 crew. Assuming that officers get staterooms that are 1 1/2 times normal size, petty officers get singles, and crew get double staterooms that requires 390 tons.

Just for the sake of argument we can use up 350 tons. Maybe it has a Safari ship that it can use as a 'launch' along with a compliment on cutters and other space ships. It doesn't really matter because we are just 'roughing out' the ship.

That leaves use with 9260 tons for 'living space'. This translates into a box shape 50m x 25m x 25m. On a map this would be an area 33 squares x 16 squares that is 6 floors tall, or 3 floors tall if you want to make the floors double height.

 

[Hyphen]

It strikes me at this size, thinking of a yacht as purely a leisure craft might be wrong. Luxury yachts are statements about the owner. A 25k yacht might be the center of a patrons power, it might be part palace, part corporate headquarters. It might even be part weapons platform, depending on the owners source of wealth.

Exactly. Assume it's his primary home. Now look at Bill Gates' place. As well as the family mansion, huge library, and great views, at least half of the estate is office space. Plus the obligatory garage for all those luxury cars.

Hey, I've just had an idea for a parallel thread: what's the equivalent of a fleet of "luxury cars" in the Third Imperium??? ;-)

BTW, Hans, I was thinking of 20,000 tons. So I'm glad that my off the cuff guess landed in the same ballpark as someone who actually ran a calculation... ;-) ;-)

 

[atpollard]

Yes, that's the three quarters of the ship I allude to above. But even then you're going to have around 6000T available on a 25,000T yacht. That's 84,000 cubic meters or 24,000 square meters of 3.5 meters high deck space. OK, not enough for a hunting preserve, but you could fit a nice bit of park in there.


Hans

I gave this some thought while I was on vacation. Let's work the problem from another direction.

Starting from the Guilded Age society, the Astor Ballroom held 400 guests - indicating that social functions that large actually happened.

The Breakers Hotel in Palm Beach Florida provided winter residence with over 550 guest rooms and from December to February was THE destination for the social elite.

The suites in the Breakers Hotel are 1700 square feet (about 34 dTons).

So if we assume the Grand Duke Whoosits hosts a travelling social event every other year that starts and ends at the sector capital and visits every subsector capital in his territory. This grand cruise is absolutely THE social event. An opportunity for each Subsector governor to impress his peers and a chance for the movers and shakers of the sector to meet socially and broker deals that will impact the political, social and economic climate for years to come.

The Grand Duke needs a ship that will accommodate elite guests in 200 suites (at 30 dTon each) plus an equal volume of support spaces (ballrooms, commons, gardens). That's 12,000 dTons just for the passenger accommodations. Kitchens, hydroponic gardens, laundries and steward accommodations might add another 6000 dtons. That's 30,000 dTons of Passenger accommodations.

Using the 75% ship/25% passenger value from Hans, that puts the ship in the 120,000 dTon range.

So really large Yachts may not be as unreasonable as one might at first assume.

[EDIT: ... actually, they are still unreasonable, they just might exist anyway.]

 

[mike wightman]

I suppose it comes down to how wealthy are the mega-rich in the Imperium.

A duchy that contains a high pop, TL15 world or two is going to generate how much personal wealth for the duke?

How much personal wealth is the sector CEO of a megacorp going to be able spend?

Noble families own shares in megacorps - what sort of dividend do they pickup?

Are there going to be millionaires, billionaires or even trillionaires?

 

[Garyius2003]

I think we may be missing something. Traveller yachts are more like private fast liners than the lake, coastal cruiser, and med babe sunning platforms we think of them as in the 21st century.

What if we think if them as luxury liners from the 1920s to 50s? Great speed, great comfort for the top level people.

The Titanic had top level passengers paying 5k, back when that would buy a house, and was as much as an officer was paid per year. They also had the best of everything.

Even so, slow wouldn't cut it. She was fast and sailing all out to prove it.

So the 200 ton yacht is fine for a simple head of a planetary business who needs to go J1 or J2 away and back on his schedule. It won't do for the ultra rich and powerful who want to go as fast as they can in ultra comfort for themselves.

So 20 tons per ultra pax suite, plus another 20-30 per ultra passenger for luxury items (dining room, bar, casino, pool). Add in J4 or 5, and you end up with rather large ships.
For the below example of the duke level ultra comfort J5 mass transit, in addition to the 2 extra crew per suite, I also assigned 100 additional crew for luxury spaces, and 200 personal staffers in high level, and 200 in middle level.

Tech Level: 14

USP
AK-P6525H4-090600-90007-0 MCr 40,739.762 60 KTons
Bat Bear 4 4 4 Crew: 692
Bat 5 5 5 TL: 14

Cargo: 1,500 Passengers: 400 Fuel: 33,000 EP: 3,000 Agility: 2 Shipboard Security Detail: 60
Craft: 10 x 50T Asst Crafts
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 407.398 Cost in Quantity: MCr 32,591.810


Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
60,000.000 tons standard, 840,000.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere Configuration

CREW
37 Officers, 655 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-5, 2G Manuever, Power plant-5, 3,000.000 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
150 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
50 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-7), 50 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
50 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-6)

CRAFT
10 50.000 ton Asst Crafts (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
33,000 Tons Fuel (5 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1,200 Staterooms, 200 High Passengers, 200 Middle Passengers, 1,500 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
100 Lux Suites (20.000 tons, Crew 2, Cost MCr 0.000), 1 Extra Lux Items (4,000.000 tons, Crew 100, Cost MCr 0.000)

COST
MCr 41,147.160 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 407.398), MCr 32,591.810 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
191 Weeks Singly, 153 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS

Book 5 Crew Breakdown
Command section: 7 officers and 23 ratings; Engineering section: 13 officers and 113 ratings; Gunnery section: 2 officers and 18 ratings; Flight section: 1 officers and 30 ratings; Service section: 12 officers and 108 ratings; Medical Section: 2 officers and 3 ratings
HULL
Hull: 0.000 Td; MCr 4,800.000
Armour Factor-0: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

ENGINEERING
M-Drive Factor-2: 3,000.000 Td; MCr 2,100.000
J-Drive Factor-5: 3,600.000 Td; MCr 14,400.000
P-Plant Factor-5: 6,000.000 Td; MCr 18,000.000; +3,000.000 EP

FUEL
P-Fuel: 3,000.000 Td; MCr 0,000
J-Fuel: 30,000.000 Td; MCr 0.000
Scoops: 0.000 Td; MCr 60.000
Purification: 66.000 Td; MCr 0.462
L-Hyd Drop Tanks: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

AVIONICS
Bridge: 1,200.000 Td; MCr 300.000
Computer Model/8fib: 22.000 Td; MCr 140.000; -9 EP

WEAPONRY
50 x Missile Turrets: 50.000 Td; MCr 112.500
50 x Laser Turrets: 50.000 Td; MCr 150.000; -150 EP
50 x Sand Turrets: 50.000 Td; MCr 37.500

SCREENS
Nuclear Damper Factor-6: 12.000 Td; MCr 38.000; -60.000 EP

CRAFT
10 x Asst Craft: 650.000Td; MCr 1.300; Cost of craft: MCr 0.000

ACCOMODATIONS
1,200.0 x Staterooms: 4,800.000 Td; MCr 600.000
Cargo: 1,500.000 Td; MCr 0.000

USER DEFINED
100 x Lux Suites: 2,000.000 Td; MCr 0.000; -0.000 EP
1 x Extra Lux Items: 4,000.000 Td; MCr 0.000; -0.000 EP

 

[aramis]

I gave this some thought while I was on vacation. Let's work the problem from another direction.

The suites in the Breakers Hotel are 1700 square feet (about 34 dTons).

Hotel suites and shipboard suites are NOT congruent, especially in that era.

Looking at the titanic's plans, available at http://www.titanic-whitestarships.com/MGY_Tech_Facts.htm ...
The standard dining table in 1st class should be 4'x4' (based upon photos), which puts the larger 1st class suites at 12x16'. That's roughly 18m^2. Which is 4Td at standard height (which the titanic wasn't).
When we double this for only half the stateroom fitting being the cabin/suite itself, we get 8Td. The two largest suites aboard are roughly double that (one is the captain's).

 

[atpollard]

Hotel suites and shipboard suites are NOT congruent, especially in that era.

Of course not, stepping outside the ship to enjoy some fresh air REALLY sucks in space!

Seriously, an ocean ship is no better or worse of an analogy for a space yacht than a Grand Hotel room. A grand hotel suite occupied by the super-wealthy for three months is a potential yardstick for the accommodations on an Imperial nobleman's space yacht ... the original point of the topic.

I would never use it as proof that Imperial yachts were larger than 100,000 dTons (mostly because I am more of a Traveller rules fan than a champion of the Third Imperium), but merely as a single data point suggesting that Traveller Yachts might be that large IYTU if that is what you desire.

 

[Condottiere]

I've been considering the advantages of pop out modules in starships.

In normal space or grounded, the starship expands to allow extra crew or passenger space, which could include grand ballrooms, and before jumping, or needing to escape pirates, the modules withdraw back into the structure, meaning that the volume becomes less that the drives need to push or transition.

 

[Vladika]

Has anyone considered that as this thing keeps growing it also grows as a very lucrative target?

Business rivals, Divorcing Spouses, Kidnappers, Pirates, Con men, Criminals, down on their luck Mercenaries, Foreign governments, Terrorists, "Freedom Fighters", Greenpeace, PETA, ELF, Anarchists, Lunatics, Citizens against whatever, and worst of all the Imperial version of the IRS.

Sooner or later even Santa Claus, Gandhi and the Easter Bunny are going to want a piece of this.

 

[aramis]

Of course not, stepping outside the ship to enjoy some fresh air REALLY sucks in space!

Seriously, an ocean ship is no better or worse of an analogy for a space yacht than a Grand Hotel room. A grand hotel suite occupied by the super-wealthy for three months is a potential yardstick for the accommodations on an Imperial nobleman's space yacht ... the original point of the topic.

Pointing out that the accommodations on period liners are well under half the size of the hotel accommodations (which said, you probably have the dTonnage wrong upon) shows that mobile accommodations were then quite different from hotel accommodations.

And they still are.

As for your probable error... titanic's decks are probably about 2.5m, not the 3.1 needed for SF to dTon conversion as I did to be correct. The grand suites, however, in the major hotels were often two full floors tall - 5 to 7 meters - sometimes including more reasonable bedroom ceilings in the 3-3.5 m range, on a mezzanine, with other rooms below. I rounded up the deck space... you appear to have rounded down.

Oh, and your math is off - 1700 SF is just a hair over 35Td using 3.1m ceilings and 4.5m^2 floor space per Td. If even half the floorspace is two floors tall, that pushes it up to around 50Td for a hotel grand suite.

 

[rancke]

I suppose it comes down to how wealthy are the mega-rich in the Imperium.

A duchy that contains a high pop, TL15 world or two is going to generate how much personal wealth for the duke?

How much personal wealth is the sector CEO of a megacorp going to be able spend?

Noble families own shares in megacorps - what sort of dividend do they pickup?

Are there going to be millionaires, billionaires or even trillionaires?

Going by the formulas worked out in this thread, a single world with a population of 90 billion, a TL of 15, and an 'industrial' trade classification will have 2,377 trillionaires^* and up. One of them will be a 10-quintillionaire^*.

^* Short scale.​

If we assume a 50,000T yacht will cost MCr50,000 and that no one will buy a yacht more expensive that 1/200th of his wealth, one such world will have 792 people who could afford it (which doesn't mean that they would all buy one).

Frankly, I hope that I've made a mistake in my calculations somewhere. But 15 trillion people do generate a lot of money.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

I'm making up short one-paragraph entries to my library data about Imperial shipbuilding companies (The same that built the Tigresses for the Imperial Navy). For inspiration I'm looking at real life shipbuilders. One of them is Blohm + Voss who built the world's two biggest private yachts. So as a bit of chrome I'm going to make one of my shipbuilding companies be the builder of the two largest private yachts in the Imperium.

Only... how big would that be? 1000T? 5,000T? 10,000T? 20,000? More?

Let's assume that the Emperor and archdukes and dukes and world rulers will use ships that formally belong to the IN and similar organizations and thus do not qualify as private yachts. We're talking about yachts belonging to private multi-billionaires. (Jump-6 yachts, of course ).


Hans

"How many CrImp's you got? you can afford that!"

But I do run a small ship universe, so 10 000 DTons.