Since TCS says that you can upgrade ships built at a lower TL to a higher TL (and outright suggests you do so), and it also explicitly says that refitting single components is just dandy, apparently so.
Tigress class dreadnaughts
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Refitting the TL14 AHL with TL15 stuff is also a bit of a giveaway
Refitting the TL14 AHL with TL15 stuff is also a bit of a giveaway
That depends: what overall TL is the refitted version considered to be (even if its armor is TL 14)?
I guess a refitted AHL as Colonial Cruiser with TL 15 components is in fact a TL 15 ship, and, as such, the refitting must be done in a TL 15 Shipyard. There's nothing forbiding a TL 15 ship having TL 14 (or lower) components, as would be the hull (and armor) in this case.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I note that you keep avoiding the Zhodani navy being capped at TL14 according to canon.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yup, what Traveller needs is more retconsBut it's very strange that there aren't. So strange that it might even deserve a retcon.
Then retcons of retcons and then...The combat factors on the chits represent such variables as number of hulls, spinals etc.
The TL shift is an optional rule and only affects the combat result tables, not the values on the chits themselves. Long held opinion on the matter is that this represents the TL advantage of the Imperium. It starts by stating:
Squadron Quality: Due to the wide range of tech levels of
the belligerents, squadrons differ in performance.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ahh, now that is interesting.
To install a TL15 computer the Zhodani ship would need to be refitted at a TL15 shipyard...
That is interesting and probably not the case. It might require a TL15 engineer because its so modular that it is designed to fit in earlier TL model vessels.
And I note discussing this with you is futile. If someone argues that a certain bit of canon doesn't make sense, and your response is that it does make sense because it is canon, there can be no discussion.
And it's not just because canon is self-contradictory. It's also not just because this was merely one counterpoint to the laughable attempt to paint the Tigress as a viable ship vs. one specific type of TL 14 cruiser, which you have latched onto exclusively ignoring the other arguments.
The really, really tiring thing about this type of pointless and uncritical exegesis of rules written decades ago (and since superseded by several different versions of Traveller) is that even now, I wasted precious time on it and people keep discussing this stupid point, while my thread with concrete ideas about revamping and improving HG has gotten one short response.
I guess so, as I understand such refit as not only changing the computer, but upgrading all the electronics, and this would probably need the resources of a full shipyard of the proper TL.
According the rules, you need a TL 15 shipyard to build a TL 15 ship (and ITTR also to refit it to TL 15), and compnents may be of equal or lower TL tan that of the ship, so, as I understand them, you need a TL 15 ship to install any TL 15 component, and that would make your ship TL 15 (albeit probably inefficient as such and with lower TL elements).
Last edited:
We do a traveller gloss over on intercompatibility in the OTU. I'd assume two alien race technologies would not be compatible except by special rare design (not cost effective). Its one thing for a defense/offensive weapon to be integrated but we're talking computing technology.
I could take this off on a tangent, but we really need to think through that approach...
I still see these questions as viable across several threads. Note that I am not mentioning which rule system is being discussed.
I use to see some tough 10-20kdt designs back 30 years ago.
There are better question we've seen across many threads;
How do we make effective larger vessels, ships for the big ship universe?
What changes in the Tigress make it tougher? Some of this discussion has occurred.
IMTU, I use some FF&S and end up with multiple spinal mounts above 100kdt. I make changes by using a chassis for such ship designs, cost is higher, maintenance is higher.
Inside of OTU we need to have designs that do one thing very well and are "ok" at other things. Hence, the question is the Tigress a combat ship first or a monitor?
The multi-meson screen idea is also interesting. Certainly that benefits my larger designs.
Or should we go after the combat rule system?
I use to see some tough 10-20kdt designs back 30 years ago.
There are better question we've seen across many threads;
How do we make effective larger vessels, ships for the big ship universe?
What changes in the Tigress make it tougher? Some of this discussion has occurred.
IMTU, I use some FF&S and end up with multiple spinal mounts above 100kdt. I make changes by using a chassis for such ship designs, cost is higher, maintenance is higher.
Inside of OTU we need to have designs that do one thing very well and are "ok" at other things. Hence, the question is the Tigress a combat ship first or a monitor?
The multi-meson screen idea is also interesting. Certainly that benefits my larger designs.
Or should we go after the combat rule system?
The first of all changes in the Tigress would be upgrading its meson screen, off course. Any sacrifice this needs is, IMHO, worth it.
I personaly disapprove the idea of multiple spinals (as already told some times) unless they are all firing in tandem against the same target (but that makes them losing most their sense, being just an overkill), as they need to turn the whole ship to aim and that would mean that aiming another target will make you lose the aim on your first one, while htey are too large for a bay-type battery.
Again IMHO the Tigress is the little sister of the Death Star (why else would the largest combat ship in OTU be a sphere, when it's a quite inefficient config against mesons and unstramlined) :devil:.
As with his true function, I always assumed it not to be a combat (after all, with HG/MT rules isn't worth its salt there) ship, but as a political weapon, be it as a threat, to show the flag (gunboat diplomacy) or as a base for the HQ on a planetary invasion (after all it carries quite a good number of troops and missiles, and its 50 dton fighters can easily be exchanged for landers to help other ships to land tropos, or the fighters themselves used for support).
And how would you treat the multi-meson screens? As several layers to be overcome?
Last edited:
Agreed. I think she needs high end meson SM and meson screen. But not necessarily a multi-SM chassis. Small angular control is needed (10%) or they'd never hit anything. Also, I use great turrets. When your 1 displacement million tons the scales change. The Sky Raiders asteroid ship at 50bdt becomes a small moon. There are different types of chassis: spokes, sidebyside, forward /aft... I am using FF&S but its home rule. It needs to make sense.
I like it. They sit in Chassis that become the SM. The deathstar had 3 converging lasers (not great physics but entertaining). She's multi-functional too but much larger.
I leave it streamlined. It's a ball. We see sphere's re-occurring in Traveller. They represent a star and emblem of the Imperium.
Agreed. 300 light fighters are a bit funny with a few launch tubes. 50 25-50dt can be sent out as hvy fighters, bombers, etc...
Also they should have a fleet command center.
Depends on the size for meson screens. Layering works, but not on larger ships.
So large planetoids as you say (50 bdt) could have several meson Spinals as the deep spinals there are in a planet as defenses...
Can those 3 lasers fire at different targets? I guess they whould have done it in the Return of the Jedi when facing the whole Rebel Fleet, should they be able, but they fire concentrated fire on one of their cruisers...
Sphere is a good config for smaller ships not thought to face mesons, as is a cheap one, but what percentage of the total Price of a Tigress would epresent to change the config to needle/wedge?
I guess in this case, the economic savings are not worth the greater meson vulnerability.
Perhaps those multiple screens is what is represented by a larger rating...
My 10mdt battle station emulates that with 8 SMs on a spiral chassis, but more importantly why not? Moving the death star at a specific direction at Endor seems silly.
They should have done it in return...the thing is nuts. Vaporize a ship with a sledge hammer. I can see the Empire Engineers "if we take a mining laser and built it at the scale of a moon..."
We already have needle designs. Tigress is intended to be a fleet center and represents the Imperium. The Imperium representative needs to be tough. Another approach is heavy compartmental armor. This may be a point where we address the reality of rules. Whether a meson blast in a sphere is worst than a needle/ wedge. I'm not buying it.
I'm trying to recall a detailed discussion of what is a meson screen, how does it multiply/grow. I'm not sure it's relevant. After all we can add bigger guns or multiple guns.
If the Trav "computer" were just a computer, I'd agree. However, the word affects so many functions in the rules that it seems pretty clear "computer" is being applied to the entire range of electronics by which the ship senses the universe around it and controls its various parts. The construction and combat rules are vague enough that one could easily come down on either side of that argument.
It's a little like coming up with a game in which our "brain" is used to refer to everything our eyes, ears, skin, spinal cord, peripheral nerves and so forth are handling, and then wondering what would be needed to accomplish a brain transplant. If it's going to involve every nerve and sensory system linked to the brain, it's going to need a heck of a lot more than if it's just involving that grey lump inside the bone casing. Trading out that grey lump might give you the skills to better pick out a camouflaged person in the brush, but it won't give you a bee's ability to see into different wavelengths. Determining whether that TL15 ship is better than TL14 because it's better at interpreting what it "sees" or because it has better "eyes" is pretty much a, "How do you prefer your universe to run," question.
Probablamente las computadoras de diferentes culturas "hablan" diferentes lenguas y usan diferentes maneras de controlar sus subsistemas.
Well, we ARE talking about a people who built a machine that could destroy planets, then flew it AROUND a planet to try to get at a moon. There's just something about Evil that impairs your judgment - not to mention your aim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ
It's a little like coming up with a game in which our "brain" is used to refer to everything our eyes, ears, skin, spinal cord, peripheral nerves and so forth are handling, and then wondering what would be needed to accomplish a brain transplant. ...
Probablamente las computadoras de diferentes culturas "hablan" diferentes lenguas y usan diferentes maneras de controlar sus subsistemas.
Well, we ARE talking about a people who built a machine that could destroy planets, then flew it AROUND a planet to try to get at a moon. There's just something about Evil that impairs your judgment - not to mention your aim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ
Then we get into the CT vs MT design methods. How much is accounted for...
Still does the TL15 tech need the TL15 starport to install TL15 hardware in a TL14 ship?
Tranlation?
Yeah, they we're nuts. Perhaps they liked that planet.
I'm going to stick with, "It depends."
On the other hand, I hear the unions on Rhylanor are controlled by the mob.
I'm sure the TL14 Zho weapons-tracking system said the same thing when the TL15 Vargr computer started giving it control commands.
I'm going to stick with, "It depends."
I'm sure the TL14 Zho weapons-tracking system said the same thing when the TL15 Vargr computer started giving it control commands.
Perhaps Traveller does have a "prime directive". We see Rebellion Regency worlds shooting up in tech over a period of less than a century, Porozlo goes from TL11 to 14.
