Laser AP?
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Just this fossil's interpretation, and presuming you mean for T20 (though it applies closely to CT as well). I don't think laser weapons (or energy weapons of any kind) have an AP value because its already factored in.Originally posted by Zanrain:
Can anyone tell me what the armor piercing factor is for lasers? The fact that Reflec and Aplat armor was developed suggests that that ballistic armor is not as effective. However I can't find anything to support that theory.
Somebody help!!!
The Armor Rating (AR) listed (p 207) for the various armors applies to all attacks equally (melee, projectile, and energy weapons) with the exception of Ablat and Reflec. For these two armors there are two numbers for the AR, the first applies to melee, projectile, and heavy energy (all the non-laser energy weapons) weapons, while the second applies to laser weapons.
The development of Ablat and Reflec was in response to the development of laser weapons and the slightly poorer effectiveness of earlier armor vs. lasers. Very shortly thereafter gauss weapons and heavy energy weapons prompt the development of Combat Armor and eventually Battle Dress, both of which are superior to Ablat and Reflec, even against lasers.
A market still exists, even at higher tech levels, for Ablat and Reflec. Some of the reasons are they are inexpensive, they are not classified as restricted and requiring military license (like Combat Armor), and in the case of Reflec it can be worn inconspicuously under even ordinary clothing.
Hope that helps clear it up a bit.
Well I guess that makes sense. But it doesn`t really solve the problem. What I don't get is, why bother? If cloth armor stops lasers just as well as reflect, then why spend the money on the specialty armor that only stops one thing. Personally I`d go with the cheaper, more readily available, all proposes armor. It`s kind of a no brainer.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep, I think you're right, except for the bit about me making sense
I think I have it right by the book but it does seem a bit off. CT used an armor adjustment vs weapon table and lasers sliced through everything except reflec, ablat and combat. So perhaps for T20 the way to go is treat all but reflec, ablat, combat and battledress as no armor. Maybe ask the same question down in T20 questions or errata and see if we can get an official answer.
On the other hand iirc TNE made lasers wimpy so that might be the model used for T20, contrary to my understanding that it was to be more CT faithful.
I think I have it right by the book but it does seem a bit off. CT used an armor adjustment vs weapon table and lasers sliced through everything except reflec, ablat and combat. So perhaps for T20 the way to go is treat all but reflec, ablat, combat and battledress as no armor. Maybe ask the same question down in T20 questions or errata and see if we can get an official answer.
On the other hand iirc TNE made lasers wimpy so that might be the model used for T20, contrary to my understanding that it was to be more CT faithful.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
This has always made little sense to me, My Gracious Lords, Lasers in "the present day" are pretty formidable at higher powers. Wouldn't a High Spectrum Laser (an X-ray Laser for example) from a High tech level lay down some hurt? Would such a device cut through even Reflec or Ablat?
Lasers getting the Poopy End of the Stick has always bothered me about Traveller. Its always struck me as a tad unspacemanlike to be carrying around some glorified musket, what?
Lasers getting the Poopy End of the Stick has always bothered me about Traveller. Its always struck me as a tad unspacemanlike to be carrying around some glorified musket, what?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Good evening Baron, thanks for dropping by.
I think the thing to recall is that the Reflec and Ablat armor are considerably more than a shiny suit of flexible mirror and a bunch of disposable insulation. They are both pretty high tech (TL10 and TL9) and costly so they must have some interesting materials and design. I do agree though, having started with CT lasers that as the subsequent systems came out lasers kept being reduced to the point where they were often little better than pointing devices while slugthrowers kept getting more lethal. Even worse the energy weapon emphasis swung to heavy energy weapons that require or advise those involved to be battledress equipped. Great if you want to run a merc or regulars game, not so needed if you want to play civilian Travellers.
I think the thing to recall is that the Reflec and Ablat armor are considerably more than a shiny suit of flexible mirror and a bunch of disposable insulation. They are both pretty high tech (TL10 and TL9) and costly so they must have some interesting materials and design. I do agree though, having started with CT lasers that as the subsequent systems came out lasers kept being reduced to the point where they were often little better than pointing devices while slugthrowers kept getting more lethal. Even worse the energy weapon emphasis swung to heavy energy weapons that require or advise those involved to be battledress equipped. Great if you want to run a merc or regulars game, not so needed if you want to play civilian Travellers.
very true but I`m afraid I must agree with far-trader and the Baron here. Some one with out laser specific armor should fear lasers more than other weapons. The way it`s set up now mean that reflect and ablat are nothing more than a bonus. I think it should be a necessity, but then that's just me.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I once had the good fortune to observe a Laser Milling Machine at work in a plastics factory, the device made pretty short work of 1 inch thick Bulletproof Acrylic (for a bank teller)... now that was at tech level 7? 8? surely SOME advances mustve been made by TL 15...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hmm, I don't know Baron, I expect there's only so much power you can pack into coherent light. Naturally there should be power developments so you can "cut the cord", like TNE's clc lasers, but once PGMP and FGMP become possible I think lasers will be retired from most services. Your example does show that ballistic armor (even hard versions as opposed to cloth) seems pretty ineffective vs lasers. Though I wonder how the cutter would have performed if the acrylic had been tinted?
Well, lasers should have an edge vs cloth armor; impact resistance does not necessarily translate to heat resistance. However, drilling through material held in a fixed position in a factory is not exactly equivalent to drilling through armor on a moving target at medium range.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well, lasers should have an edge vs cloth armor; impact resistance does not necessarily translate to heat resistance. However, drilling through material held in a fixed position in a factory is not exactly equivalent to drilling through armor on a moving target at medium range. </font>[/QUOTE]That's a good point, if its a long duration beam. I think for laser's to work well as weapons you pretty much have to make them a pulse version. In fact I've always felt the difference in the ship versions of "beam" and "pulse" was the duration and cycle of the actual pulse. The "beam" being a long (like a second) firing pulse while the "pulse" was a rapid fire of shorter pulses (say three to five). I see the same thing for personal weapons variations.
And laser weapons are most definately not suitable for nice clean cuts through materials
For that you want a mining laser or laser torch.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
The Device in question was in constant motion on an XY axis servo... it cut the sheet in a few minutes into perfectly edged shapes taken from an Adobe Illustrator file! I thought the same thing about tinting, but then they cut a sheet of that flourescent plexi, the kind that collects light at its edges, and it sliced that up pretty good as well.
FGMPS and teh like are fine, save for the need for battledress on most versions, and the limited range.. what I would be speking of would be a "cutter beam" a high output type refined into functionality by high technology. hmmm...
FGMPS and teh like are fine, save for the need for battledress on most versions, and the limited range.. what I would be speking of would be a "cutter beam" a high output type refined into functionality by high technology. hmmm...
Far Trader
True, but power output increases drastically when you increase a beam weapons bore, you can even "cheat" on this by bundling multiple smaller beams close together.
Since lasers work by superheating objects very effeciently, anything that increases light absorbsotion (such as tint or color) would also increase the effectiveness, possibly (as this is a case of manufacturing) to the point of damaging the material with seconday burns.
Assuming you have a laser that can cut into a man a 50ft, would you prefer to wound him with numerous little selfcautorizng holes or carve him up like a turkey? That is the real difference between a pulse and beam laser. Pulse lasers are good for hitting but should do less damage. Beam lasers should do more damage but are harder to use effectively IMHO...
The major limits have to do with the power level that causes atmosphere to break down (becoming opaque), and the rate at which material can be removed from the hole (which is primarily a function of conductivity). This caps penetration of metal or similar materials at somewhere close to 1 meter/second. EUV or X-ray lasers, because they can deposit heat efficiently below the surface, can beat this rate; unfortunately, they can only penetrate atmosphere by superheating the air and creating a vacuum channel, which means air is pretty much armor against them.
No it isn't. It's more a case of 'would you prefer to burn holes in him or draw a thin score across his surface, causing nasty scars if he's not wearing armor'. You need to concentrate quite a bit of power in a small area to hurt people with lasers.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
yes, you do, but working from an assumption that a Traveller laser, which is recharged by a ship's power plant, has some form of intensly high power source to draw from. An old addage from bygone laserriflemen, "More Power, More Ow-er!"
Given a certain power input level, a pulse laser and a beam laser will impart the same amount of energy on a target in a given amount of time. So there should be no difference between them, right? Well, I can think of a few differences.
Pulse: stores up the charge, and hits you with it all at once. The laser must be powerful enough to handle a large pulse, and must have large charge/discharge banks.
Beam: hits you with it over the course of time. Can be smaller, since the amount of energy at any gien moment isn't as much, and requires no fancy gear.
This is like the difference between getting shot or having some one drop bullets on you over the course of a couple minutes. This doesn't mean a beam laser is worthless, just that its emply should not be haphazard.
Heat is a tremendous killer. You warm some one up faster than they can cool down, and eventually they will get too hot. Large spacecraft with large guns (and giant reactors to power them) will probably not exist until there is a way to efficiently remove all that heat. Hitting something with a pulse laser is going to blast a hole in it, maybe destroy some piece of equipment. But warming it over with a beam laser is going to tax its cooling system, raise temperatures, and kill off all those handy dandy microbes in the recycling system, and then that ship is in trouble, even if they beat you off.
Vs personnel, a beam might set some one on fire. A pulse might blast a chunk of skin off. Lasers work really well when they can turn something into steam.
Carrying around a laser that is capable of doing much to armor is a problem. That industrial laser was just that: industrial. I don't think anyone was going to pick it up (and its power source!) and tote it onto a battlefield. You make a man-portable laser, and it's not going to have much energy. You might decide to spend your 50kg battery on a single shot to get all that megajoulage on one target, and that might be a whole megajoule or something. Hope no one SHOOTS your power pack. I wouldn't want a Mj exploding in MY hands.
Plasma and fusion are certainly way-cool, but you will probably never be able to fire them outside a battlesuit of some sort. All that HEAT, baby! You're going to roast yourself pretty quick. Control of magnetism and gravity probably aren't going to do much for heat you're holding in your hands. You need protection from it.
Lasers will play a part in specialized operations, like sniper ops, where you need a long range, highly accurate, nearly undetectible shot against an unarmored target. I really don't see them entering a soldier's hands any other way. Gauss guns and CPR guns are likely to be with us for a long time.
Pulse: stores up the charge, and hits you with it all at once. The laser must be powerful enough to handle a large pulse, and must have large charge/discharge banks.
Beam: hits you with it over the course of time. Can be smaller, since the amount of energy at any gien moment isn't as much, and requires no fancy gear.
This is like the difference between getting shot or having some one drop bullets on you over the course of a couple minutes. This doesn't mean a beam laser is worthless, just that its emply should not be haphazard.
Heat is a tremendous killer. You warm some one up faster than they can cool down, and eventually they will get too hot. Large spacecraft with large guns (and giant reactors to power them) will probably not exist until there is a way to efficiently remove all that heat. Hitting something with a pulse laser is going to blast a hole in it, maybe destroy some piece of equipment. But warming it over with a beam laser is going to tax its cooling system, raise temperatures, and kill off all those handy dandy microbes in the recycling system, and then that ship is in trouble, even if they beat you off.
Vs personnel, a beam might set some one on fire. A pulse might blast a chunk of skin off. Lasers work really well when they can turn something into steam.
Carrying around a laser that is capable of doing much to armor is a problem. That industrial laser was just that: industrial. I don't think anyone was going to pick it up (and its power source!) and tote it onto a battlefield. You make a man-portable laser, and it's not going to have much energy. You might decide to spend your 50kg battery on a single shot to get all that megajoulage on one target, and that might be a whole megajoule or something. Hope no one SHOOTS your power pack. I wouldn't want a Mj exploding in MY hands.
Plasma and fusion are certainly way-cool, but you will probably never be able to fire them outside a battlesuit of some sort. All that HEAT, baby! You're going to roast yourself pretty quick. Control of magnetism and gravity probably aren't going to do much for heat you're holding in your hands. You need protection from it.
Lasers will play a part in specialized operations, like sniper ops, where you need a long range, highly accurate, nearly undetectible shot against an unarmored target. I really don't see them entering a soldier's hands any other way. Gauss guns and CPR guns are likely to be with us for a long time.
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