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LBB 3 Tech level

spank

SOC-13
I'm working on generating a spread sheet to use to simulate 10,000 trips between world.
I'm doing this so I can evaluate the "best" ship layout to take advantage of travelling and trading, IE, how many high passages, how many Tons of Cargo etc.
I generated a smeg load of 2d6 rolls for any dice and ran thru the the LBB 3 system generation rules.
There's probably error in my spreadsheet, but this is what I came up with for the TL for the worlds I generated.
Does this seem wildly wrong in any way?
1731842533090.png
 
Not exactly sure about the methodology you were using to generate this result, but it is rather interesting that you've got a "volume peak" in the TL=7-9 range.
 
Not exactly sure about the methodology you were using to generate this result, but it is rather interesting that you've got a "volume peak" in the TL=7-9 range.
I'm not sure about my methodology either :p.

I'm sure there's atleast one mistake in there, I'm going to try to look over it tonight.

I tried to follow the LBB3 method,
First I rolled 2D6 for Starport,
Based off the expected results for 2d6 I get an expected frequency of
Class "A" = 2-4, so 2.78%+5.56%+8.33% = 16.66% or ~ 1667
Class "B" = 5-6, so 11.11%+13.88% = 25% or ~ 2500
Class "C" = 7-8, so 16.66%+13.88% = 30.55% or ~ 3055
Class "D" = 9, so 11.11% = 11.11% or ~ 1111
Class "E" = 10-11, so 8.33%+5.56% = 13.89% or ~ 1389
Class "X" = 12, so 2.78% = 2.78% or ~ 278.

Vs what I rolled:
StarportNumber RolledExpected resultsPercent Variance
Class "A"17041666.6+2.19%
Class "B"24392500-2.5%
Class "C"31413055.5+2.72%
Class "D"10831111.1-2.59%
Class "E"13571388.8-2.34%
Class "X"276280-0.64%

Which seems right, but it's the easiest thing to roll. So if I made any errors I wouldn't expect them here
1731892894783.png
 
That's for LBB3 Tech levels?
I can't see the range, but it does look similar.

I was thinking about the negative TLs,
I know that the TL chart starts at 0, but it'd be interesting to expand it a little.
Maybe:
TL -3 = Tool using animals, {sticks and stones}
TL-2 = Primative tool using/making Sophonts, {napped stone, Etc.}
TL-1 = Fire making, Shelters Etc
TL 0 = Metal working, agriculture, domestic animals Etc
TL 1 = Era roman era equivalent, Roads, houses, trade networks, Etc
 
Next up is bases,
Which are a little more complicated.

Naval base: Do not roll if Starport C, D, E or X.
So, only roll if Starport roll was 6-
So, only check 41.66% of the time for an 8+ or 41.66%
So, 41.66% of 41.66% give an expected result of 17.35% chance for a Naval Base.
I got 1697 Naval bases, so 16.97% or -2.19% of expected.
1731901928866.png
Seems pretty close.


Scout base: "Apply DM -1 if Starport C; -2 if Starport B;-3 if Starport A. Do not roll if Starport E or X."
This one's gonna be more complicated.
So only roll if Starport roll was 9-
So, only check 83.33% of the time for a modified 7+ or 58.33% of the time.

I got 8367 results of Starbase "A","B","C",or "D" VS 8333 expected. Which I think is good enough.
I got no Scout bases on Starbases of class "E" or "X" which is good.
For a Class "D" Starbase the roll is un-modifed so you would expect to roll for 1111 Class "D" Starbase world, and succeed 58.33% or 648 Scout bases on Class "D" Starbases.
I had 1083 Class "D" Starbases, which mean 632 Scout bases expected, And I rolled 647, or +2.37%, Not bad.
I had 3141 Class "C" Starbases, Vs 3056 expected, and they have -1 DM or success on a 8+ or 41.67%, So 1273 expected Scout bases VS 1301 rolled, or -2.11% Not bad.
I had 2439 Class "B" Starbases, Vs 2500 expected, and they have -2 DM or success on a 9+ or 27.78%, So 695 expected Scout bases VS 647 rolled, or -6.83% not the best.
For Class "A" Starbases, I found an error in my formula, I was only rolling them at a -1 VS a -3.
After correcting it,
I had 1704 Class "A" Starbases, Vs 1667 expected, and they have -3 DM or success on a 10+ or 16.66%, So 278 expected Scout bases VS 274 rolled, or -1.39%, pretty good.
1731902027564.png

So that gives 2885 Scout bases Vs 2893 expected, or -0.27%, if I'm apply the DMs right.


Gas giants should be pretty straight forward, Roll 9- for Gas giant present, or 83.33% chance, or 8333 expected. I rolled 8365 gas giants vs 8333 expected, Or +0.33%, Pretty good.
1731902368432.png


So based on complexity the Gas Giant roll should be idiot proof,
the Naval Base roll should be idiot resistant,
and the Scout base is the most likely to have a error in it.
 
That's for LBB3 Tech levels?
I can't see the range, but it does look similar.
Yes. The values are clamped to 0-15 (which is one reason there's a blip at 0, all those below 0 are made 0). If you don't clamp the values, they can range from -4 to 18.
 
Isn't it a highly unlikely -5?
X starport -4
Government D -2 (which requires a pop of 8 and a gov die roll of 12)
Roll of 1d which is a minimum of +1.

And the unlikely max is 20
A starport +6
size 0 or 1 +2
atmosphere 0 to 3 +1
population A +4
government 5 +1
Roll of d6, max +6
 
Isn't it a highly unlikely -5?
X starport -4
Government D -2 (which requires a pop of 8 and a gov die roll of 12)
Roll of 1d which is a minimum of +1.

And the unlikely max is 20
A starport +6
size 0 or 1 +2
atmosphere 0 to 3 +1
population A +4
government 5 +1
Roll of d6, max +6
I'm still reviewing, but that's what I came up with.
I haven't figured the odds yet, but it does seems to be a very small percentage.
 
Yes. The values are clamped to 0-15 (which is one reason there's a blip at 0, all those below 0 are made 0). If you don't clamp the values, they can range from -4 to 18.
I see a similar blip in atmosphere and hydrographics,
Actually a bit more pronounced.
Here are two different sets of rolls for size, ATM , and HYD
1731986437601.png
1731986484596.png
 
I've generated about 100,000 worlds, and I am looking at the data from them. I used "ideal" dice rolls, Ten rolls of 10008 2d6, with exactly 2.78% 2s, 5.56% 3s, etc. Then randomized the order of each set of 10008.
Here's the results do far;
Tomorrow I'll move on to generating trade rolls between each system,
Which is the impetus of this project.
These are LBB3 systems, so no trade codes.
I'll compare each world to the next and then generate cargos for the trip, the move on to the next world.
Then I'll be able to calculate the average number of passenger of each class, and average number of tons of cargo.

1732521688195.png
1732521718451.png
 
LBB3.81, p16 has the trade codes to assign after you've finished rolling up the UWP codes.
I missed it!
😫
It doesn't look like it will be hard to add.
But it also doesn't look like it will have any effect on routine trading, Or I should say, freight hauling.
I'm looking at the tables for available cargo and passengers on page 11 of LBB 2 The only DMs I see are for Pop 4-, Pop 8+, Red Zone and Amber Zone. For now I'm just going to assume that the traders avoid red/amber coded worlds in favor of other options.
I will also have to re-generate the Scout and Naval bases, I missed the Modifiers for them.
 
It doesn't look like it will be hard to add.
But it also doesn't look like it will have any effect on routine trading, Or I should say, freight hauling.
Correct.
Trade codes are only relevant to speculative goods arbitrage.
I'm looking at the tables for available cargo and passengers on page 11 of LBB 2 The only DMs I see are for Pop 4-, Pop 8+, Red Zone and Amber Zone. For now I'm just going to assume that the traders avoid red/amber coded worlds in favor of other options.
Population and Green/Amber/Red are the BIG modifiers for ticket revenues (passengers and freight). However, there is also a +/- TL modifier in there as well between the origin and the destination. What's annoying is that LBB2.81 does not adequately explain "which end of the equation" to put the relative TLs between origin and destination.
  • Origin TL - Destination TL ...?
  • Destination TL - Origin TL ...?
  • Is it an absolute value of the difference between the two tech levels?
    • So TL=6 origin to TL=8 destination is a +2 DM ... and a TL=8 origin to a TL=6 destination is ALSO a +2 DM?
To my knowledge, there aren't any easily accessible examples of the order of operations available to provide a definitive proof for how the +/- DM for TL disparity is meant to be applied.

LBB2.81, p11:
Tech Level: add (or subtract) difference between origin and destination.

An excessively literal reading of this text (repeated for both passengers and freight) would be:
  • Origin TL - Destination TL = DM
So if the Origin TL was say ... 15 ... and the destination TL was 2 ... then you should be doing 15-2 = +13 DM.
If the Origin TL was say ... 3 ... and the destination TL was 14 ... then you should be doing 3-14 = -11 DM.

My rationale for this interpretation of the text is that in grade school math instruction, "difference" is often synonymous with subtraction ... so subtract the destination TL from the origin TL ... the difference between origin and destination.

Depending on how you choose to implement it, this can mean that high tech worlds "export a lot" (passengers and freight) while importing relatively little. Conversely, low tech worlds "struggle" to export (passengers and freight) to high tech worlds, but are not penalized as heavily when exporting to other low to mid-tech worlds.

Reverse the equation operation and you wind up with "everything going to high tech worlds" and little to nothing coming out of the high tech worlds (which doesn't seem quite right). :unsure:

A really fun way to think about this in operation is in terms of vacationing off world/out system.
People from high tech worlds are eager to leave to go vacation "in the boonies" and are reluctant to come back (kinda sorta). So you wind up with people that (net balance of trade) immigrate away from the high tech worlds ... and never come back ... because of the difference in passenger ticket demand flows. So the practical upshot is that in terms of interstellar travel, passengers and freight are "biased" to flow outwards from high tech to low tech (as you'd expect) when it comes to ticket sales.



The real killer on tickets are the modifiers for Amber and Red zones.
Amber zones not being able to roll for Major Cargo puts a SERIOUS dent into the demand for cargo transport services to Amber zone worlds ... enough so as to act as a financial deterrent to low end free traders, which can prevent such transits from being economical/profitable (and if you're going to lose money going somewhere, you'd better have a good reason for wanting to do it!).
 
I missed it!
😫
It doesn't look like it will be hard to add.
But it also doesn't look like it will have any effect on routine trading, Or I should say, freight hauling.
I'm looking at the tables for available cargo and passengers on page 11 of LBB 2 The only DMs I see are for Pop 4-, Pop 8+, Red Zone and Amber Zone. For now I'm just going to assume that the traders avoid red/amber coded worlds in favor of other options.
I will also have to re-generate the Scout and Naval bases, I missed the Modifiers for them.
If you are just analyzing the pay the rent hauling re freight lots, you aren’t really working the merchant game.
 
No so much the pay, rather the optimal cargo hold size, and optimal passenger allotment. With more of any eye to a tramp freighter than a merchant.
The merchant game is a very different game, and involves having sufficient capital and cargo space. It's probably something you'll move into later in the campaign. A merchant will play a very different game from a freighter, likely hanging out in the same 2-3 world and waiting for the big score.
IMHO that type of game is on par with a D&D game where the PCs buy a tavern, or open a blacksmith's shop and settle down.
But YMMV.
 
No so much the pay, rather the optimal cargo hold size, and optimal passenger allotment. With more of any eye to a tramp freighter than a merchant.
This ... is where the possibilities EXPLODE exponentially ... and is actually the target of my Pondering Starship Evolution thread (that I've had going for a year now), albeit from the other end of the equation (starship design rather than market modeling).

If you're looking for being able to survive (by making a profit) on ticket revenues ONLY, but operating as a tramp, budgets for revenue minus expenses start getting TIGHT really fast. I did an analysis (in Post #559 in the thread) via formula of where the break even point is in revenues for J1 Free Traders and J2 Far Traders ... just to see what would pop out of the statistical math.

Short answer:
  • Under subsidy, J1 Free Traders and J2 Far Traders can both be profitable on ticket sales alone
  • Paid Off/non-subsidy, J1 Free Traders can be dramatically more profitable than J2 Far Traders on ticket sales alone
  • Bank Financed, J1 Free Traders can still be profitable (with full manifests), but J2 Far Traders are going to go bankrupt if they can't supplement their revenues with (successful) speculative goods arbitrage from time to time
The key finding though was that both J1 Free Traders and J2 Far Traders don't have a whole lot of "margin" to work with if they can't keep their manifests full of passengers and freight tickets. The amount of revenue they HAVE TO bring in for them to remain profitable is pretty close to their passenger and cargo transport capacity, so going places where there isn't enough demand for their services can wind up being a net loss on the voyage. This in turn means that on the interstellar maps, there are going to be "financial deserts" where low end free trader merchants risk bankruptcy if they venture there, simply because there won't be enough ticket revenues to offset their costs of operations while in those regions.

Clusters of low population worlds (4-) have particularly low passenger and freight ticket revenue opportunities, so needing to move through "several of them" to get to locations "on the other side" can be hazardous to bottom lines for merchant operators who need to shave every credit that passes through their hands. In the Lanth and Rhylanor subsectors of the Spinward Marches, there are TWO such "backwater stretches" along the Spinward Main, which can be problematic to move through on a "one and done" manifest basis as a tramp, where there is no "future planning" of destinations beyond the (immediate) next.



However ...



Things get a LOT more interesting (financially) for merchant operators if they can plot 2+ destinations in advance, because you know where you're trying to get to beyond the next jump.

This will make a lot more sense if you use my portolan chart re-interpretation of the map of the Spinward Marches with updated colors and text font to convey additional information. The colors give you all the trade code information and the font gives you population information that is relevant, at a glance, to a merchant operator.

If you look at the Lanth subsector, there are 3 worlds in a row along the main that are Population: 4- (as indicated by world names in underlined italics) ... K'Kirka, Echiste and Pirema. If you're only doing single jump destination declarations, moving through these worlds at J1 is going to be costly to bottom lines and annual profits.

The Rhylanor subsector has a stretch that's even worse.
Gileden, Fulacin, Macene, Kinorb and Keanou are 5 worlds in a row on the Spinward Main that are all Population: 4-.
Opportunities for ticket revenues through this stretch of the map are going to be ... meager.

So what to do if you need to move through those "backwater" stretches? :unsure:

Simple.
You declare multiple destinations and gather up the tickets for all of them.
Let's use the the Lanth subsector example (because it's shorter and therefore simpler).



Let's say that you're a J1 Free Trader operator and you're currently at Rech/Lanth (2112). For whatever reason {insert reason here} you've decided you want to get away from the Regina/Regina region and head down the Spinward Main towards Equus/Lanth ... but in order to get there, you have to get past the "ticket wasteland" of K'Kirka, Echiste and Pirema.

If you declare them, individually, one at a time, to be your ONLY destination (1 at a time) upon arrival, you're going to be getting almost no ticket buyers. Low population origin to low population destination makes for very few passengers and freight tickets to be sold.

So what you do is you declare all of them as your next destinations and pick up passengers and freight bound for all of them.

When you're at Rech/Lanth ... you declare that your next FOUR destinations are K'Kirka, Echiste, Pirema and Tureded.
Roll dice for passengers and freight bound for Tureded from Rech.
If any manifest capacity remains unused, roll for passengers and freight bound for Pirema from Rech.
Then Echiste.
Then K'Kirka.

The reason why you roll for tickets in a "longest first" manner is because anyone who wants passage from Rech to Tureded (past the low population backwater) is going to need to buy FOUR tickets ... (from Rech) to K'Kirka, Echiste, Pirema and Tureded in order to reach Tureded. Those passengers "won't be getting off" while you are jumping through the low population region that is unlikely to have passengers and freight waiting to depart. This then helps to keep your manifest "full" while transiting through this region.

So from an operator end of the ledger, trade between Rech and K'Kirka (1 parsec away) only really matters for starships that are doing a "round trip" rather than a "one way beyond" type of jump plot.



In other words, it is possible for free traders to make profits "passing through" low population regions (to get to the other side, basically), but it's difficult to remain profitable if you're "stuck" in a low population region of space if you're dependent upon ticket revenues alone.

At which point, the (often times, subsidized) mail carrier enters the picture. 📬

With the guaranteed revenue of mail deliveries (Cr25,000 upon arrival at destination) it is possible for extremely low end merchant ships (with minimal crews and overhead expenses) to actually turn a profit on the guaranteed revenues of mail delivery exclusively. In subsidized service (with a 50% revenue rake) this basically puts a hard limit of Cr12,500 in operating expenses per 2 weeks (for crew salaries, life support, annual overhead maintenance allowance, berthing fees, fuel ... the lot), which in turn puts some pretty EXTREME constraints on the design of starships capable of this kind of work.

After all, 1 pilot plus 1 gunner cost Cr3500 in crew salary per 2 weeks and an additional Cr4000 in life support expenses per 2 weeks. Add in berthing fees of Cr100 per 2 weeks and you're down to Cr4900 in profit every 2 weeks in a sub-200 ton starship design ... because a 200 ton starship would require a medic (Cr1000 per 2 weeks) who would increase the life support expenses (by another Cr2000 per 2 weeks), at which point you're down to a Cr1900 in profit every 2 weeks on mail deliveries alone (no passengers, no freight). You would need to have an onboard fuel purification plant, because Cr4900 in profits will only buy 9.8 tons of refined fuel at type A/B starports ... and you don't want to misjump, do you (do you?)?

For such low end merchant tramps, the need to avoid the expenses associated with a medic (stateroom tonnage, crew salary, life support overhead) means that such starships can't carry passengers, since 1 medic is required per 120 passengers. This means that these types of "mail couriers" can spend whatever tonnage they have spare on exclusively cargo hold capacity ... and because their operating expenses are lower than the revenue generated from delivering mail, if they jump with an empty cargo hold (but a full mail vault) the starship will STILL make a profit wherever it goes. Consequently, the cargo hold capacity can be used for speculative goods arbitrage and freight tickets "and it's ALL GRAVY" no matter where you need to go (although, obviously, some destinations are better than others when dealing in speculative goods). ;)
 
No so much the pay, rather the optimal cargo hold size, and optimal passenger allotment. With more of any eye to a tramp freighter than a merchant.
The merchant game is a very different game, and involves having sufficient capital and cargo space. It's probably something you'll move into later in the campaign. A merchant will play a very different game from a freighter, likely hanging out in the same 2-3 world and waiting for the big score.
IMHO that type of game is on par with a D&D game where the PCs buy a tavern, or open a blacksmith's shop and settle down.
But YMMV.

Correct.
Trade codes are only relevant to speculative goods arbitrage.

Population and Green/Amber/Red are the BIG modifiers for ticket revenues (passengers and freight). However, there is also a +/- TL modifier in there as well between the origin and the destination. What's annoying is that LBB2.81 does not adequately explain "which end of the equation" to put the relative TLs between origin and destination.
  • Origin TL - Destination TL ...?
  • Destination TL - Origin TL ...?
  • Is it an absolute value of the difference between the two tech levels?
    • So TL=6 origin to TL=8 destination is a +2 DM ... and a TL=8 origin to a TL=6 destination is ALSO a +2 DM?
To my knowledge, there aren't any easily accessible examples of the order of operations available to provide a definitive proof for how the +/- DM for TL disparity is meant to be applied.

LBB2.81, p11:


An excessively literal reading of this text (repeated for both passengers and freight) would be:
  • Origin TL - Destination TL = DM
So if the Origin TL was say ... 15 ... and the destination TL was 2 ... then you should be doing 15-2 = +13 DM.
If the Origin TL was say ... 3 ... and the destination TL was 14 ... then you should be doing 3-14 = -11 DM.

My rationale for this interpretation of the text is that in grade school math instruction, "difference" is often synonymous with subtraction ... so subtract the destination TL from the origin TL ... the difference between origin and destination.

Depending on how you choose to implement it, this can mean that high tech worlds "export a lot" (passengers and freight) while importing relatively little. Conversely, low tech worlds "struggle" to export (passengers and freight) to high tech worlds, but are not penalized as heavily when exporting to other low to mid-tech worlds.

Reverse the equation operation and you wind up with "everything going to high tech worlds" and little to nothing coming out of the high tech worlds (which doesn't seem quite right). :unsure:

A really fun way to think about this in operation is in terms of vacationing off world/out system.
People from high tech worlds are eager to leave to go vacation "in the boonies" and are reluctant to come back (kinda sorta). So you wind up with people that (net balance of trade) immigrate away from the high tech worlds ... and never come back ... because of the difference in passenger ticket demand flows. So the practical upshot is that in terms of interstellar travel, passengers and freight are "biased" to flow outwards from high tech to low tech (as you'd expect) when it comes to ticket sales.



The real killer on tickets are the modifiers for Amber and Red zones.
Amber zones not being able to roll for Major Cargo puts a SERIOUS dent into the demand for cargo transport services to Amber zone worlds ... enough so as to act as a financial deterrent to low end free traders, which can prevent such transits from being economical/profitable (and if you're going to lose money going somewhere, you'd better have a good reason for wanting to do it!).
From what I see the TL applies as a modifier comparing the TL of the origin world to the destination world,
  • Destination TL - Origin TL ...? Seem to give the correct DM.
The example on page 8 of LBB1:Facsimile gives a POP 6 world going to a POP 3 world with a TL 3 lower. Could be TL 15->TL 12 or TL 4->TL 3. In the example this give a +3. Presumably traveling in the opposite direction would give a -3.
1732588367863.png
1732588518564.png
 
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