CT Only: [LBB 5] Jump with capacitors?

[Leitz]

From reading LBB 5 a ship can use capacitors to jump, assuming enough energy stored. Of course, the book says two different things; in one place it says you can an in the other fuel is also required.

If you have sufficient energy stored in Jump Capacitors, do you need fuel to jump? Where do the rules say that?

 

[BlackBat242]

In general, in Classic Traveller it is considered that ships' capacitors cannot store energy for more than a small number of turns - they have to be charged from the jump engines very shortly before being used to push the ship into jump.

Thus, you have to have enough fuel just before jump to power the generators (in the jump engines) to charge the capacitors - this normally uses up all the jump fuel, and it means you MUST enter jump soon after, or go back and refuel for another attempt.

Note that in CT this is the ONLY stated use for jump fuel - there is no "cooling" or "jump bubble" function for jump fuel in CT.


Alternatively, the capacitors can be charged by black globes, if the ship is so fitted, and then when fully charged the ship can jump without using any jump fuel - this requires that you be in combat shortly before jump.

 

[mike wightman]

Page 43:

If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient
fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn.

 

[Whipsnade]

Beat me to it, Mike!

Not only do you need fuel and energy to initiate a jump, you need to generate the requisite EPs within two HG2 combat rounds.

 

[Leitz]

Well, with the old saying "A difference that makes no differnece is no difference", if you need fuel then there's no sense calling them "jump capacitors". If you have capacitors, the need for fuel is reduced if you have the energy. Since L-Hyd tanks can provide fuel, be dropped, and then jump initiated, having fuel at the point of jump initiation is unnecessary.

Since even our TL 7 capacitors can hold charges for extended times it is just an assumption that TL 9+ capacitors can't hold a charge. Like many things, the need for fuel may have just been one of those assumptions people make when writing stuff. Didn't think of a laser pistol, didn't think of a ship with jump capacitors and no fuel tanks.

 

[kilemall]

Well, with the old saying "A difference that makes no differnece is no difference", if you need fuel then there's no sense calling them "jump capacitors". If you have capacitors, the need for fuel is reduced if you have the energy. Since L-Hyd tanks can provide fuel, be dropped, and then jump initiated, having fuel at the point of jump initiation is unnecessary.

Since even our TL 7 capacitors can hold charges for extended times it is just an assumption that TL 9+ capacitors can't hold a charge. Like many things, the need for fuel may have just been one of those assumptions people make when writing stuff. Didn't think of a laser pistol, didn't think of a ship with jump capacitors and no fuel tanks.

I think of the TL 9 capacitors as being metallic hydrogen or m-hyd technology, a side tech from advances in gravitics being able to create multi-gigapascal pressures to form it in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen

The idea is that it is the ultimate superconductor, but at a certain tipping point of energy and heat the gravitic compression will not hold and will blow up, creating an explosion big enough to blow up most ships. Or alternatively, creates a fusion event, your call.

So the charge goes in and the clock starts ticking until Bad Things Happen, but there isn't a better operationally useful superconductor at sub-TL16 levels.

What makes these different then garden variety TL7 capacitors is the immense amount of charge that can be held for short periods of time in such a small relatively cheap package. A tradeoff, for the engineering challenges of ship operations the advantages obviously outweigh more conventional storage systems.

 

[Leitz]

I will point out that I've read the above but not really digested it. Still mentally chewing.

 

[Whipsnade]

Well, with the old saying "A difference that makes no differnece is no difference"...

There's another old saying about the logical fallacy called the "false dilemma". It's also known as binary thinking, bifurcation, fallacy of the extruded middle, and others. It involves a situation in which only limited options are claimed to exist when in fact there are additional options.

Another logical fallacy is the referential fallacy". It involves confusing a "label" for a "thing" and usually occurs when people are overly literal fixating on only one use of a word.

Let's take a look at the logical fallacies at work here.

... if you need fuel then there's no sense calling them "jump capacitors".

As HG2 explicitly states, you need both fuel and energy. The rules have given us the "fuel" requirements for jump since LBB:2 and HG2 gave us a way to actually calculate the energy required too. You have up to two combat rounds, 40 minutes, to produce that energy. When you jump you need both that energy and the fuel which means jump "fuel" isn't used to create that energy and is instead used to do something else.

So, it's not a case of either fuel or capacitors. That's a false binary choice. It's not a case of label "fuel" only meaning "stuff pumped into a reactor" either. That's a referential fallacy.

If you have capacitors, the need for fuel is reduced if you have the energy.

Wrong actually. As we've seen, you need both energy and fuel and the fuel in question isn't used to create the energy. Again, we need to remember that the term "fuel" doesn't always mean "reactor fuel".

Since L-Hyd tanks can provide fuel, be dropped, and then jump initiated, having fuel at the point of jump initiation is unnecessary.

Wrong again and for the same reasons as above. Additionally, we know jump initiation can take as long as 40 minutes and that mis-jumps have occurred when jump tanks failed to clear a jumping ship's immediate vicinity quickly enough.

Since even our TL 7 capacitors can hold charges for extended times it is just an assumption that TL 9+ capacitors can't hold a charge.

Another referential fallacy. Because the TL7 capacitors you're familiar with have specific attributes and capabilities, all things labeled "capacitor" everywhere and at all times have the same attributes and capabilities.

Like many things, the need for fuel may have just been one of those assumptions people make when writing stuff.

It's not one of those assumption people made. It's one of the rules the game's designers wrote and wrote at the very beginning.

Didn't think of a laser pistol...

They did. In a very early issue of JTAS Loren Wiseman shows how you can use the rules to stat out any weapon that suits your fancy. His example is a laser pistol.

... didn't think of a ship with jump capacitors and no fuel tanks.

Huh? Annic Nova? The ship and adventure featured in the first issue of JTAS?

It's strange. For someone who wants to write Traveller fiction, you know oddly little about the game, it's background, and it's setting.

 

[BlackBat242]

Huh? Annic Nova? The ship and adventure featured in the first issue of JTAS?

It's strange. For someone who wants to write Traveller fiction, you know oddly little about the game, it's background, and it's setting.

Annic Nova - which made Jumps with NO jump fuel present at any stage, and which built up the energy to make jump over a long period of time (days or weeks), storing it until needed.

Both of which completely contradict the "must have fuel" AND the "capacitors can only store energy for very short periods of time (2 turns)" themes you have been pointing out.

Annic Nova is not a good example to use when discussing "by the book" jump functioning - unless it is to show that "the B2/B5 jump engine/fuel /capacitor functioning is NOT the only type out there"!.

 

[aramis]

Annic Nova - which made Jumps with NO jump fuel present at any stage, and which built up the energy to make jump over a long period of time (days or weeks), storing it until needed.

Both of which completely contradict the "must have fuel" AND the "capacitors can only store energy for very short periods of time (2 turns)" themes you have been pointing out.

Annic Nova is not a good example to use when discussing "by the book" jump functioning - unless it is to show that "the B2/B5 jump engine/fuel /capacitor functioning is NOT the only type out there"!.

It's also not a "built by the rules" ship, either. It's a huge ball of (vaguely cool) handwavium.

But, looking at what the AN does through the later defined mechanisms it uses: it collects exotic particles. Which ones? We don't know. But we do know it captures them from the star.

Note also, the collector is a variant jump drive - except for the (1) lack of fuel (2) charging method, and (3) charging time, it operates as any other jump drive.

Given that, in all other ways, it's a jump drive...
That implies that all jump drives use exotic particles to make jumps.
Collectors capture them from a runaway fusion bomb of stupendously high power at great ranges. It's likely Jump Drives grab them from a very small controlled fusion reaction inside the jump drive.

JD most likely generates exotic particles from the fuel.
CJD on the AN generates them from a 2e30 Ton fuel source that is fusing ~93,000,000km away...

 

[Whipsnade]

Annic Nova is not a good example to use when discussing "by the book" jump functioning - unless it is to show that "the B2/B5 jump engine/fuel /capacitor functioning is NOT the only type out there"!.

Leitz complained, incorrectly, that Traveller's authors hadn't thought of laser pistols or fuel-less jump drives. "Annic Nova" and LKW's JTAS article proves him wrong.

Until T5 (and possible FF&S), all we had known was that other types of jump drives were possible. What we didn't have rules was for them.

As for "by the book" jump functions, Leitz titled this thread CT Only: LBB:5 Jump with capacitors? and then proceeded to ignore everything LBB:5 told him about jump.

By the book LBB:5 jumps use capacitors. By the book LBB:5 jumps use both energy and fuel for different tasks. It's right there. All you need to do is read it.

 

[whulorigan]

It's also not a "built by the rules" ship, either. It's a huge ball of (vaguely cool) handwavium.

But, looking at what the AN does through the later defined mechanisms it uses: it collects exotic particles. Which ones? We don't know. But we do know it captures them from the star.

Note also, the collector is a variant jump drive - except for the (1) lack of fuel (2) charging method, and (3) charging time, it operates as any other jump drive.

Given that, in all other ways, it's a jump drive...
That implies that all jump drives use exotic particles to make jumps.
Collectors capture them from a runaway fusion bomb of stupendously high power at great ranges. It's likely Jump Drives grab them from a very small controlled fusion reaction inside the jump drive.

JD most likely generates exotic particles from the fuel.
CJD on the AN generates them from a 2e30 Ton fuel source that is fusing ~93,000,000km away...

But in T5/T5.09, the collector as described in the text does not need to be near a star (i.e. it can collect in interstellar space at the same rate as in a star system). This is a change from the described operation in the original published adventure.

T5.09, p.384 (left column):

A canopy is capable of charging without regard to proximity of stars or worlds.

 

[Whipsnade]

But in T5/T5.09...

I'll point out, again, that we didn't know that until T5 was published and that the thread asked about LBB:5 only.

 

[whulorigan]

I'll point out, again, that we didn't know that until T5 was published and that the thread asked about LBB:5 only.

Understood. But I was responding to Aramis's comment concerning what we know from later sources (see quote above).

 

[Whipsnade]

Understood. But I was responding to Aramis's comment concerning what we know from later sources (see quote above).

I understand that too.

Threads drift all the time, so I wanted to re-remind everyone of the original complaints.

 

[atpollard]

I understand that too.

Threads drift all the time, so I wanted to re-remind everyone of the original complaints.

Well, If I can complain about LBB5 Capacitors and Jump, then ...

If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn.

So what?
I mean then who cares a whit about Jump capacitors at all. They only matter to black globes which other pages in the same book tell me are either alien tech or experimental prototypes and not generally available (although it is fascinating just how many such alien artifacts and experimental prototypes seem to be kicking about the OTU and ATUs).

So they provide us with a swell piece of chrome that upon examination, has no value. They don't hold a charge for long, so I could just charge them from the PP when I jump like every civilian ship does at every jump. LBB 5 presents them like they are a big deal when they are really just an example of "Captain Obvious" ... I mean who here did not know until they read about capacitors in LBB 5 that a ship needed both a PP and Jump Fuel to jump? Who cares that it 'charges the capacitors' if that has no real effect on anything else.

Now, if the Jump Fuel had charged the capacitors, then that would have been information that mattered. That would have allowed the construction of alternate methods of charging the capacitors. Then we could have explored a massive fission powered jump drive. Or a beamed energy jump drive.

Instead, what we have amounts to a the equivalent to "Place car in park before attempting to start" ... "charge capacitors before attempting to engage jump drive". So what, who cares?

We also know that anti-matter Jump ships without giant LH2 fuel tanks are possible at higher TLs. So it is not a physical impossibility to jump without jump fuel. The designers just did not want us to do it.

[Thank you for listening to my diatribe, I feel better now.]

 

[Whipsnade]

I mean then who cares a whit about Jump capacitors at all.

You will.

They only matter to black globes...

No, they don't. Let's take a look at page 39 in the same book:

It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =0.01MJn). If it can do this in two turns, it jumps at the end of two turns. If it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of one turn (in the pursuit step).

HG2 introduces the concept of energy points. LBB:2 doesn't have them. As long as your power plant is rated as high as your m-drive an d/or jump drive, LBB:2 says you're set. HG2 goes into more detail, just as it does with other things. In a slight case of "SFB-itis", HG2 says your power plant must meet the EP requirements for computers, weapons, screens, agility, and jump.

You want to jump? You got to produce the number of EPs determined by a specific formula within a specific period of time. And because that period can be as long as two combat turns (40 minutes), you need a place to store that energy. Enter capacitors.

So, what came first? The jump drive's need for capacitors or the black globe's need for capacitors. Who knows. I do know that, while LBB:2 and Mayday both allow ships to disengage by jumping, they make no mention of black globes. I think it's safe to say that GDW didn't introduce capacitors just for alien tech/experimental prototype black globes.

I mean who here did not know until they read about capacitors in LBB 5 that a ship needed both a PP and Jump Fuel to jump?

Leitz for one.

Thank you for listening to my diatribe, I feel better now.

As well you should.

 

[kilemall]

Well, If I can complain about LBB5 Capacitors and Jump, then ...


So what?
I mean then who cares a whit about Jump capacitors at all. They only matter to black globes which other pages in the same book tell me are either alien tech or experimental prototypes and not generally available (although it is fascinating just how many such alien artifacts and experimental prototypes seem to be kicking about the OTU and ATUs).

So they provide us with a swell piece of chrome that upon examination, has no value. They don't hold a charge for long, so I could just charge them from the PP when I jump like every civilian ship does at every jump. LBB 5 presents them like they are a big deal when they are really just an example of "Captain Obvious" ... I mean who here did not know until they read about capacitors in LBB 5 that a ship needed both a PP and Jump Fuel to jump? Who cares that it 'charges the capacitors' if that has no real effect on anything else.

Now, if the Jump Fuel had charged the capacitors, then that would have been information that mattered. That would have allowed the construction of alternate methods of charging the capacitors. Then we could have explored a massive fission powered jump drive. Or a beamed energy jump drive.

Instead, what we have amounts to a the equivalent to "Place car in park before attempting to start" ... "charge capacitors before attempting to engage jump drive". So what, who cares?

We also know that anti-matter Jump ships without giant LH2 fuel tanks are possible at higher TLs. So it is not a physical impossibility to jump without jump fuel. The designers just did not want us to do it.

[Thank you for listening to my diatribe, I feel better now.]

As presented in the book, ya it's chrome. But EPs and capacitors are BIG GRIST for my BIG MILL of energy allocation and fighting ships.

Only takes 40% of all power to charge that spinal weapon, and a captain can choose to not move or fire anything else but fire that spinal twice? Can do.

When you can read the big EMF coming off those things charging up a weapon or the jump drive, you can get tactical intel out of what the enemy is going to do next.

Plus, boom. More boom hitting those capacitors that have to be built into all those fast discharging weapons when they are in a charged state.

I wubs me those capacitors. They just need love.

 

[atpollard]

I am not a big fan of using the HG combat rules for anything other than their intended purpose. They also tell me that certain weapons are physically incapable of hitting certain ships. This is acceptable for a simplification that allows fleet combat without a supercomputer, but dangerous for back-porting 'this is how the universe works'.

I do not believe that indistructable ships or invulnerable reserves are part of the reality of the universe presented in the RPG rules and adventures. They are just a quirk of the wargame built into LBB5. So I love the ship design, I like the Chargen, I can take or leave the combat, but I still am a Rule 68A LBB 1-3 Old School player at heart.

 

[atpollard]

Only takes 40% of all power to charge that spinal weapon, and a captain can choose to not move or fire anything else but fire that spinal twice? Can do.

When you can read the big EMF coming off those things charging up a weapon or the jump drive, you can get tactical intel out of what the enemy is going to do next.

Ok, that WAS pretty cool.