LBB2 M-Drives in LBB5: When does it help?

[mike wightman]

If we are going into maintenance and build CT era, cannot neglect TCS rules.

Which are for a game of TCS, the workings of the Third Imperium setting don't often follow the rules in such supplements.

Are you saying a TL15 Imperial warship has to return to a TL15 world for its annual check up rather than use the TL15 facilities of the Naval Base to which it is assigned?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which are for a game of TCS, the workings of the Third Imperium setting don't often follow the rules in such supplements.

Are you saying a TL15 Imperial warship has to return to a TL15 world for its annual check up rather than use the TL15 facilities of the Naval Base to which it is assigned?

Nothing in HG or TCS says anything much about maintenance time or location. TCS uses "maintenance" for operating cost, there is no time or location involved.

LBB5 ships have no separate rules for maintenance, so presumably LBB2 rules apply, i.e. any A class starport will do?

TCS specifies that repairs has to be at a starport of at least the correct TL.

S9, p6 specifies that Imperial Naval bases don't perform repairs, but that is done by the civilian starport.
Naval Depots can build and repair ships.

 

[mike wightman]

And yet in FFW Naval bases can repair damaged squadrons...

could it be that in the Third Imperium setting every A or B starport is TL15

 

[AnotherDilbert]

could it be that in the Third Imperium setting every A or B starport is TL15

Perhaps, but LBB5 says no. Some other source may disagree?

LBB5 specifically mentions the Imperium:

LBB5, p20:
- - Technological Level: Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and maintain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may always be equal to or less than the ship's tech level.
- - The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14. A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within its borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

Even for the Imperial Navy the TL of the system is a limit.

 

[mike wightman]

As I said earlier - the Third Imperium setting doesn't always follow the rules set out in the books, even when said books use "the Imperium" to showcase the latest rules.

In FFW - a boardgame that is explicitly describing the setting - TL15 IN ships can be repaired at any IN base regardless of world TL.
In LBB:2 any A starport can construct any TL of ship, and any A or B starport can do annual overhaul.

Don't you just love how contradictory it all is

 

[Condottiere]

I assume that a starport can always place an order for parts to be delivered.

As to the mechanics and engineers from a distinctly lower local technological level being able to repair or install high teched equipment or parts, that would be another issue.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I assume that a starport can always place an order for parts to be delivered.

Sure ... but how quickly can that be done ...?

Think about it.
Annual overhauls take 2 weeks to complete.

If there are replacement parts that need to be ... outsourced offworld ... how long will it take to transmit the order, make the transaction and ship the goods back? Short answer is going to be ... longer than just 2 weeks.



Let's say I've got a TL=13 starship and I put in for an annual overhaul at Regina Starport (TL=12).
Because my starship needs TL=13 components, the nearest Industrial world of TL=13 is going to be Efate (6 parsecs away).
Just the transport ALONE, never mind the settling of contracting for the spares, is going to take either 4J3 or 6J2 (or 12J1) to make the round trip.
I don't care how you slice it, that's going to take longer than 2 weeks to finish if something isn't already in stock and needs to be ordered from "outside" the star system (in this case, Regina to Efate).

So if Regina Starport has the spares in stock that my ship is going to need for its annual overhaul ... no big deal.
But if they need to special order something to finish that annual overhaul, my ship might get laid up for a month (or two, or more!) while waiting for the parts needed to be transported from Efate to Regina.

For LBB2 items (the standard, commercial off the shelf stuff), I think it's fair to say that a shipyard is more likely to have "over tech" parts and spares in stock at the starport shipyard facilities.
For LBB5 items (custom integrated) ... as a Referee I would rule that custom jobs are much more unlikely to have "over tech" parts and spares in stock (they'll have some, but maybe not what your ship needs).



Do the RAW state this is to be expected?
No ... no, they don't.

Does this complication become apparent after thinking about the problem for more than a minute?
Why yes ... yes it does ...

 

[coliver988]

Do A & B 'ports have a limited stockpile of higher-tech parts? Time and space are both credits. I'd imagine that a highly trafficked world would have a larger chance of having parts available as that is the expectations (and possible Imperial requirements) to maintain that status.

As the rules between LBB2 and LBB5 (and ancillary games) differ, it boils down to how you want to play in your TU. I've always assumed A/B ports have a higher TL than the world if necessary, but spares are in limited supply depending on traffic. Players (or me) would roll, or, if the story needed it, I'd make the decision.

 

[Condottiere]

Usually, an annual check up is scheduled in advance.

And assuming there are sensors constantly diagnosing the ship components, a pretty good idea what needs replacing.

 

[infojunky]

I also forg

could it be that in the Third Imperium setting every A or B starport is TL15

Or, Tech Level isn't quite the over riding controlling factor that many seem to think it is.... Meaning Standard drives use standard parts and as such while tech level controls where they are made, but not where they are used...

Think of a Garage in the middle of Nowhere fixing a car, for common cars they will have parts on hand, but for not so common cars they have to order them.

 

[Grav_Moped]

As I said earlier - the Third Imperium setting doesn't always follow the rules set out in the books, even when said books use "the Imperium" to showcase the latest rules.

In FFW - a boardgame that is explicitly describing the setting - TL15 IN ships can be repaired at any IN base regardless of world TL.
In LBB:2 any A starport can construct any TL of ship, and any A or B starport can do annual overhaul.

Don't you just love how contradictory it all is

I think you've hit something implicit there.

An A starport can build ships, A or B can overhaul them. That indicates there's a difference between the requirements for construction and overhaul.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Usually, an annual check up is scheduled in advance.

For "fleet" operators, sure.
For independent "wildcat" operators who are just tramping around (like adventurers) with no set course or schedule determined in advance ... not so much.

Ships that have a "home port" that they (routinely) return to ... sure.
Tramps that go "here, there and everywhere" getting blown around on the solar winds ... not so much.

And assuming there are sensors constantly diagnosing the ship components, a pretty good idea what needs replacing.

Knowing what is needed and finding it in stock when it is needed are two different things.

Point being that if a ship's TL matches the TL of the world where the maintenance is being performed, that's basically a "gimmie" that the local supply chain will be able to provide almost anything that is needed ... assuming the world has Population: 7+ (because you can have type A starports on Non-Industrial worlds that are incapable of manufacturing all the goods they need natively). Parts and spares can almost certainly be supplied for starships requiring TL below the world's, but needing higher TL than the world produces locally could potentially be a complication (and therefore, an adventure hook).

 

[Condottiere]

My assumption is that starport alphas are minimum technological level twelve, being Imperium run.

While I don't know what the demographics are, I'd say the vast majority of commercial starships are technological level twelve and below.

Anything requiring spare parts above that, may require some careful planning.

 

[Murph]

Build? Probably not that many, but look to light aircraft for a counterexample. The Cessna 172 has been around in almost continuous production since 1956, and you can likely still get the early Continental engines (used through 1967, superseded by Lycomings) overhauled.

They do at construction time, but not for ongoing maintenance.

Ok, very valid point, although I would like to politely counter with how many people can work on a Wright 1820-97 engine regularly? Or a Wright 3350?

 

[Grav_Moped]

On a one-off basis? Probably not many, but I suspect there are enough to keep the ones that are still operational, operational. It's a niche. Replacement parts are likely either cannibalized/salvaged or custom-cast and machined.

I mean, these days you could probably build a functional replica of the engine in a Ford Model T using CNC machining and 3D printing at a well-equipped machine shop. It'd cost a lot to get the computer models built, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as cheap as modern mass-produced engines even after you had the tooling set up, but it could be done.

$4000 (US) plus shipping will get you a turnkey rebuilt VW 1600cc engine (new cylinder heads, with credit for a reusable core) that was used from 1971-2003 (Mexican production from 1979-2003.)

Traveller supposes a rather large installed base for the Letter Drives -- they can last more than 40 years with proper maintenance.

 

[Condottiere]

Why New Aircraft Engine Ideas Rarely Succeed

Aircraft owners and pilots often bemoan the lack of new technology in aircraft engines and complain--accurately--that most airplane engines are basically 1960s tech. But as Paul Bertorelli points out in this video, it's not for lack of trying. And it's not necessarily the new engine itself that fails to get traction, but the company's support--or lack thereof.

CORRECTION: The Rotax V-6 engine had single, not dual overhead camshafts.

 

[aramis]

Ok, very valid point, although I would like to politely counter with how many people can work on a Wright 1820-97 engine regularly? Or a Wright 3350?

I know there are A&P's still maintaining the original radials on the DHC-2 Beaver, the Vought F-4u Corsair, and several other WW II airframes... And there's a guy who (during the summer) drives a model A Ford in Corvallis. (Has a vanity plate, too.)
There's a guy in SC Alaska who manages to maintain a turbine RX-7 variant.
If there's an engine, someone will try to keep it going...
There are hot-shot metal fab types with CNC routers making new parts on demand for old cars and old planes. (But the old plane ones have to be inspected by an A&P...)

I've gotten to see an F-4U doing touch-n-go's at Birchwood Airport (PABV, BCV) into the 2010's. Same with DHC2's... but not just BCV... MRL and ANC as well. I've done toolboy duty on a C-119... Johnny is STILL trying to get the damned thing flying again.

 

[Murph]

Again a very good point, but how many people/factories are still actively manufacturing those items? None. They are essentially master craftsmen making them on an individual basis. Now I suspect that there might be a large industrial base on high tech level worlds that could maintain and repair lower TL drives, parts, equipment, but they would not make them.

 

[kilemall]

I figure that the letter drives are ISO type plug compatible standards, very much the interstellar equivalent of plug and play components. As I have shown in previous posts, they ship well- given millions of credits involved and something like a 30% off cost at IND worlds, at 20% it’s still profitable to have them mass manufactured and shipped dozens of parsecs. Similar economies work for computers and bridge electronics.

So I envision a stream of parts coming on an anticipatory schedule from the IND worlds to everything in economic range. There may be stockpiles in key big ports per subsector that can surge replace unexpected activity, but part of the cost of maintaining that port rating is consistent inventory. Just in time isn’t really a thing in our milieu, stockpiling and constant feed is the key to keep trade working.

Just a thought- the long build times could represent delay times for new build parts arriving, and the constant flow is just repair parts and emergency replacements.

Being a standard, they can likely be plugged in even in low tech environments. LBB2 ships don’t have higher tech materials specced, so steel will do. The difference then between A and B starports is scale of hull building and having possibly imported jump tech install/calibration at A yards, and an inventory of ready drives/plants much larger to support builds.

So any LBB2 ship can be worked at any starport.

LBB5 ships are different. They are more customized tuned high performance ships, with the full range of advanced materials/armor, ton and fuel effective power plants, and military weaponry. As such, IMO they should be maintained at starports at the TL they were built at (not necessarily original shipyard). In the case of the Imperial naval bases and depots they should be considered TL15.

So your players have a choice- compatible ships supported virtually everywhere, or advanced capabilities requiring their TL support.

 

[aramis]

Again a very good point, but how many people/factories are still actively manufacturing those items? None. They are essentially master craftsmen making them on an individual basis. Now I suspect that there might be a large industrial base on high tech level worlds that could maintain and repair lower TL drives, parts, equipment, but they would not make them.

a quarter to a third of a million people in the primary pop center, and 2-3× that in served population, and you likely have those needed masters.

In this case, Anchorage is about 300k in city, and 350k in muni/borough (~ county - but Alaska has no counties - nor the usual county level law enforcement.) Whole state's about 750k. And it supports a whole raft of aviation specialists producing a steady stream of FAA approved replacements for a variety of oddball birds.

It's worth noting also: the aviation sector isn't even relying upon master craftsmen - moderately well trained techs can check the milled replacements for spec, and the A&P can check them as well and use them. I don't know if that is an exception for Alaska or for certain airframe types...

End of the day, it's cheaper to ship the block aluminum to Alaska and mill it out there as needed than to have the birds off-line for better fab stateside... and it's up to the A&P to decide which. The current CNC mills can produce a nearly flawless part every time if given a flawless blank. (The exception being when externals interrupt the fab.)

I know that at one point the bottom jug on the left engine of his C119 needed a new head - old one was cracked. He took the old one in and the shop measured and milled a new one, mid 1990's. Tech's gotten better since. And cheaper. And faster and more accurate, tho' for the C-119, the tolerances are pretty loose anyway. (You don't worry if you see a small steady oil leak; you worry when you don't, because it means the sump's empty or close to...)

Andresen's Radio was repairing aviation radio gear from my childhood through the early 2010s, and probably still is. They've been known to take two or three broken VHF aviation radios, and Frankenstein them into one working one.

Expect a lot of mid-pop worlds to support ships in the same manner.

Oh, and Alaska does have a shipyard or two... one construction/overhaul slip in Seward, and ISTR one in Dutch, but I've only seen the one in Seward. Seward doesn't usually build - but during WW II, it built military auxiliaries, at the same speed as NYPH (The yard at NS Pearl Harbor.) The civies took longer. Juneau and Anchorage have small boat repair availability, but Anchorage requires trailering them.
Kodiak has non-slip repair at CGS Kodiak. Dutch has a number of providers for in-water repair at the docks.

Alaska has a rather robust parts manufacturing ecosystem for its population - it needs it - supporting the third biggest industry in state (Commercial Fishing). Tourism and basic amenities of civilization make small aircraft essential - the numbers of Cessna 152's, Piper Cubs, and other bush-capable 2, 4, and 6 seaters still flying means there's a market for those not-quite-one-off custom machined parts... provided one can get FAA approval to use them.