far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ack, another sin to haunt my conscienceOriginally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Thanks Dan, I have now found a signature
Litmus Tests
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Same with the CT rules. If you’ve been playing and houseruling CT and the OTU for 20 odd years it will run smooth as silk and pleasant as a glass of fresh lemonade. I recently reexamined both CT and [O][A]D&D and found them a jumbled clunky mess as written. I have a knack for absorbing and finding useful bits from settings and also read pre-1980’s science fiction but I know the OTU as presented most times is both boring and overwhelming for many. Also Hard Science Fiction has moved on while at the same time Traveller Science has ossified into even more detail thus alienating potential fans on both sides of interest in science in science fiction.
As for separating the OTU from T5, there’s at least one flamewar around that topic already on CotI. I’ll just say I’m all for more than one ‘verse for Traveller. TNE had that in the works and T20 has some settings in playtest that fit that bill.
Levels of degree and options are a good thing IMO.
[EDIT] changed to I have a knack for absorbing and finding useful bits from settings [/EDIT]
All just my opinion.
Grognard wikipedia entry
For Traveller anyone who started with CT can be considered a possible Grognard in the gaming usage of the term. The extreme end is an insistence on CT as the One True Holy Way to Play Traveller to the damning of all other paths to Traveller. This may or may not exclude houseruling. There are degrees and variants on this, such as accepting some parts of MT and DGP’s works and TNE’s FF&S but still bolted onto what is essentially a houseruled CT. There are also MT grognards and with 1248 in the works TNE grognards might be possible. For the most part though anything CT is seen as the only way to do things and is the only thing deemed Traveller.
Gearhead wikipedia entry
Gearhead is the car term taken to Traveller vehicle, gadget, weapon, and ship design. Traveller gearheads focus on the design minigame to at least a significant if not exclusive degree. Variants include rockhead for planet designers and there’s likely somebody who cranks out species. While a curio and a byproduct of Traveller rules any religious wars are usually within the ranks.
Canonista referrers to taking only those parts of works as officially approved by the High Holy MWM as viable in any discussion or playing of Traveller. Anything else is false teaching and Heresy. Again there are variants and degrees but it is more of a charged term than Grognard. I don’t use the term Canonista lightly as I see it as a negative only.
Someone can have elements of all three and usually at least two are present especially if a Grognard uses only the OTU. This doesn’t have to be the case though since the OTU developed by pieces and wasn’t present in the initial books.
Technically I suppose I'm eligible for the title grognard, having played Starter/TTB back when it was in print (I remember the ship illos, misjumps, chargen, and that's about it). However I feel there is no one true way to play Traveller and don't really care what one uses to play it or what setting is used, especially if it gets in the way of playing an enjoyable game. I’ll use whatever design sequence or fudge to generate a design or just use someone else’s.
I like to keep religious devotion to matters of religion. For me that doesn’t include any game. Not even my beloved Call of Cthulhu. The Mythos shouldn’t be set in stone and memorized, nor did Lovecraft set his stories in the 1840s, and the new World of Darkness core book or Unknown Armies should work just as fine as BRP.
As always YMMV.
Casey takes the bicorn off
Grognard wikipedia entry
For Traveller anyone who started with CT can be considered a possible Grognard in the gaming usage of the term. The extreme end is an insistence on CT as the One True Holy Way to Play Traveller to the damning of all other paths to Traveller. This may or may not exclude houseruling. There are degrees and variants on this, such as accepting some parts of MT and DGP’s works and TNE’s FF&S but still bolted onto what is essentially a houseruled CT. There are also MT grognards and with 1248 in the works TNE grognards might be possible. For the most part though anything CT is seen as the only way to do things and is the only thing deemed Traveller.
Gearhead wikipedia entry
Gearhead is the car term taken to Traveller vehicle, gadget, weapon, and ship design. Traveller gearheads focus on the design minigame to at least a significant if not exclusive degree. Variants include rockhead for planet designers and there’s likely somebody who cranks out species. While a curio and a byproduct of Traveller rules any religious wars are usually within the ranks.
Canonista referrers to taking only those parts of works as officially approved by the High Holy MWM as viable in any discussion or playing of Traveller. Anything else is false teaching and Heresy. Again there are variants and degrees but it is more of a charged term than Grognard. I don’t use the term Canonista lightly as I see it as a negative only.
Someone can have elements of all three and usually at least two are present especially if a Grognard uses only the OTU. This doesn’t have to be the case though since the OTU developed by pieces and wasn’t present in the initial books.
Technically I suppose I'm eligible for the title grognard, having played Starter/TTB back when it was in print (I remember the ship illos, misjumps, chargen, and that's about it). However I feel there is no one true way to play Traveller and don't really care what one uses to play it or what setting is used, especially if it gets in the way of playing an enjoyable game. I’ll use whatever design sequence or fudge to generate a design or just use someone else’s.
I like to keep religious devotion to matters of religion. For me that doesn’t include any game. Not even my beloved Call of Cthulhu. The Mythos shouldn’t be set in stone and memorized, nor did Lovecraft set his stories in the 1840s, and the new World of Darkness core book or Unknown Armies should work just as fine as BRP.
As always YMMV.
Casey takes the bicorn off
I think I agree with FarTrader. There's a LOT of stuff for someone new to the game to try and absorb.
Contrast the ship design rules from LBB2 with T4 or TNE. It's daunting to take on that level of detail from scratch but it's much easier if you already have the concepts and the experience. Well, relatively easy; some of the newer design sequences make my head hurt.
The same comparison can be drawn to character generation, world creation, etc.
There might be simply "too much to do" for the game to be as attractive to newer players as the LBB's were.
(sheepishly rejoining conversation after removing my foot from my mouth)
Casey: Point taken. But we need to talk about Plancenoit and the value of the British 2-rank system on reverse slopes.
(flicking the dust off of my lace cuffs)
Contrast the ship design rules from LBB2 with T4 or TNE. It's daunting to take on that level of detail from scratch but it's much easier if you already have the concepts and the experience. Well, relatively easy; some of the newer design sequences make my head hurt.
The same comparison can be drawn to character generation, world creation, etc.
There might be simply "too much to do" for the game to be as attractive to newer players as the LBB's were.
(sheepishly rejoining conversation after removing my foot from my mouth)
Casey: Point taken. But we need to talk about Plancenoit and the value of the British 2-rank system on reverse slopes.
(flicking the dust off of my lace cuffs)
And granted, the OTU is huge. However, other systems use a shadow of our Imperium as a background for their game -- Fading Suns, SpaceMaster, Star Wars
-- and don't seem to have the problems Traveller has.
It may be a matter of fragmentation and information scatter. New sourcebooks, theoretically, can alleviate this, when done well. There are inconsistencies that may need cleaning up.
A true grognard (perhaps I mean canonista) may not accept redaction. But that's the grognard's problem, not Traveller's.
It may be a matter of fragmentation and information scatter. New sourcebooks, theoretically, can alleviate this, when done well. There are inconsistencies that may need cleaning up.
A true grognard (perhaps I mean canonista) may not accept redaction. But that's the grognard's problem, not Traveller's.
shar_leigh
SOC-9
As a relatively new person to the game of Traveller (compared to the rest of you) I will admit one of the more daunting aspects of Traveller is the setting. Keeping track of Charted Space and trying to absorb all of its vastness as quick as possible in order to run a game is VERY daunting.
The abbreviations aren't that bad. The abbreviations in the book can be pretty easily found. It's the abstract which is most confusing as well as some of the answers when asking "ancients". I've been doing Traveller for 2 years but mostly through online role playing forums or PBEMs. My group (mixed group of old school and newbies) like to play Traveller but only for short periods of time. The frustration level kicks in at an accelerated pace when questions might be posted and you get different answers. We do understand though that situations can vary from Universe to Universe.
Still, I have hopes that they will play it more and more. It will be picked up again after GenCon since it's the time when I get to meet fellow travellers and enthusiasm is once again renewed.
Just another note. The more I read threads on CoTI the more I understand Traveller a bit better. Traveller's such a great game even in its vastness that it's still worth plugging away at absorbing it all.
Anyway, I just wanted to give my opinion from a newbie's aspect. Yes, I consider myself a newbie even after two years mostly due to how often I play the game and also what I feel my grasp of it is.
- Shar_leigh
The abbreviations aren't that bad. The abbreviations in the book can be pretty easily found. It's the abstract which is most confusing as well as some of the answers when asking "ancients". I've been doing Traveller for 2 years but mostly through online role playing forums or PBEMs. My group (mixed group of old school and newbies) like to play Traveller but only for short periods of time. The frustration level kicks in at an accelerated pace when questions might be posted and you get different answers. We do understand though that situations can vary from Universe to Universe.
Still, I have hopes that they will play it more and more. It will be picked up again after GenCon since it's the time when I get to meet fellow travellers and enthusiasm is once again renewed.
Just another note. The more I read threads on CoTI the more I understand Traveller a bit better. Traveller's such a great game even in its vastness that it's still worth plugging away at absorbing it all.
Anyway, I just wanted to give my opinion from a newbie's aspect. Yes, I consider myself a newbie even after two years mostly due to how often I play the game and also what I feel my grasp of it is.
- Shar_leigh
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
what, make them earn doctorates in science, sociology, economics, political science and creative writing first? </font>[/QUOTE]Well maybe bachelor degrees
Seriously, no, we had fun with the game before we were even out of high school. Of course we were well read nerds so we had some knowledge of the above which certainly helped. Even so we never got too deep into the details, it was about the adventure*, then. Less so as time moved on
* or getting stinking rich with speculative trade
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
One thing new TRAVELLER gamers can keep in mind is that you don't have to =use= the OTU setting, or only use as much of it as you like. It's =your= game; make it the way you want.
And don't listen to us Grognards too much, either: we =might= know an answer, but it's more likely we know =several= answers (at least one per Grognard) and you'll just have to make up your mind yourself anyway, so why not just go ahead and do that first and save yourself the time and trouble of listening to us grumble.
It's always best, especially when starting without an experienced TRAVELLER referee, to start small and slowly work up, adding and subtracting things as you go until you get a TRAVELLER universe that you and your gamers like. Take your time and have fun.
And don't listen to us Grognards too much, either: we =might= know an answer, but it's more likely we know =several= answers (at least one per Grognard) and you'll just have to make up your mind yourself anyway, so why not just go ahead and do that first and save yourself the time and trouble of listening to us grumble.
It's always best, especially when starting without an experienced TRAVELLER referee, to start small and slowly work up, adding and subtracting things as you go until you get a TRAVELLER universe that you and your gamers like. Take your time and have fun.
shar_leigh
SOC-9
Trust me, one of the first things that I learned was that you all had "several" answers to volunteer. It didn't stop us from playing the game and won't stop us in the future from playing either. (smiles) Actually it is the debates and multitude of answers that intrigue us and spark us to adapt our own interpretations. Just like many guidebooks, the answers are JUST a guide. Not set in stone since it is OUR universe.
Sometimes also, it's the kid in us that can enjoy the game the most. You might not have as much knowledge in real life but you are readily agreeable to suspend disbelief for an hour or 5 while you play the game. In my FTF group, the ages run 9 years old to 48. Each enjoys Traveller for different reasons and it's great to see the next generation of Travellers emerge.
Like you said, taking it bits at a time, we are making our way into the universe (beware everybody). It's the best way when going into uncharted territory (unless you might be a Vargr).
- Shar_leigh
Sometimes also, it's the kid in us that can enjoy the game the most. You might not have as much knowledge in real life but you are readily agreeable to suspend disbelief for an hour or 5 while you play the game. In my FTF group, the ages run 9 years old to 48. Each enjoys Traveller for different reasons and it's great to see the next generation of Travellers emerge.
Like you said, taking it bits at a time, we are making our way into the universe (beware everybody). It's the best way when going into uncharted territory (unless you might be a Vargr).
- Shar_leigh
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I was the kid that never bought modules. for me it was like having someone telling you how to run it "thier way". (This is not to say that Tourneys and the like were not won in the past, what.) If I got them, it was only for a good read.
The first time the OTU rared its ill-concieved head for me was in MT, where it seems every mundane entry in the book seemed to have a hastily attached "By the way, there's a Rebellion on!" qualifier.
This, and the (though I know so many enjoy it) and unnecessary overcomplications of the rules are why for me those books collect dust, save for an occasional delving for some tidbit of non-rebellion related data.
Traveller has a Messiah Complex. There are many out there that have convnced themselves (in light of the copious ammounts of work they do on it) that only they can "save" Traveller, but this is preposterous. Traveller in any form, is what you make it. The only thing it needs saving from is being too firmly rooted in today's world, and perhaps its own Identity Crisis. Oh, and non-representative art. Sadly, at the end of the day, it's just not ours to save in that respect. We are not the publishers.
The so-named "In My Traveller Universe Code", while silly, denotes the degrees to which its many fans diverge, if I read it right... If there was far less of that sort of thing and more open discussion about what is GOOD about Traveller, this would be a better game.
If Traveller seems to lack coherent direction, perhaps that is because it goes in five directions at once.
I still have yet to figure out why anyone would willingly apply a label to themselves that includes the word "nard".
The first time the OTU rared its ill-concieved head for me was in MT, where it seems every mundane entry in the book seemed to have a hastily attached "By the way, there's a Rebellion on!" qualifier.
This, and the (though I know so many enjoy it) and unnecessary overcomplications of the rules are why for me those books collect dust, save for an occasional delving for some tidbit of non-rebellion related data.
Traveller has a Messiah Complex. There are many out there that have convnced themselves (in light of the copious ammounts of work they do on it) that only they can "save" Traveller, but this is preposterous. Traveller in any form, is what you make it. The only thing it needs saving from is being too firmly rooted in today's world, and perhaps its own Identity Crisis. Oh, and non-representative art. Sadly, at the end of the day, it's just not ours to save in that respect. We are not the publishers.
The so-named "In My Traveller Universe Code", while silly, denotes the degrees to which its many fans diverge, if I read it right... If there was far less of that sort of thing and more open discussion about what is GOOD about Traveller, this would be a better game.
If Traveller seems to lack coherent direction, perhaps that is because it goes in five directions at once.
I still have yet to figure out why anyone would willingly apply a label to themselves that includes the word "nard".
Okay. When I used to work for The Compleat Strategist, 'grognard' was a useful label to define myself as an experienced 'gamer. (been there, done that, got drunk with them...) Credentialed big fish in a small pond, that was me. My Gygax autograph from Gencon '75 read 'may you always make your saving throw!' As a wargamer, of course I'm aware of the original use of grognard.
I've always used grognard to mean one of the 'Old Guard'. When SPI went under in '80, I lost my lifetime subscriptions to S&T and to Moves. I used to play OGRE/GEV when they were printed on 3x5 cards. We played Melee and Wizard. I remember when the FFW was current events! We used to use Squad Leader as a role-playing game. The biggest difference between Loren and me (as gamers) was that I realized that I could never be able to afford all the miniatures I would want, so I mostly didn't go down that road. Hexes and counters were way cheaper.
Grognard-just another way of saying greybeard.
I've always used grognard to mean one of the 'Old Guard'. When SPI went under in '80, I lost my lifetime subscriptions to S&T and to Moves. I used to play OGRE/GEV when they were printed on 3x5 cards. We played Melee and Wizard. I remember when the FFW was current events! We used to use Squad Leader as a role-playing game. The biggest difference between Loren and me (as gamers) was that I realized that I could never be able to afford all the miniatures I would want, so I mostly didn't go down that road. Hexes and counters were way cheaper.
Grognard-just another way of saying greybeard.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Melee and Wizard! I actually found my copies in packing up the house the other day. High school (where I only had copies) and college - everybody loved it because it was so simple. (And, like Traveller (CT), you only needed 1 kind of die!)
I think of the LBB's and MT as the same system, just added details and new rules. I prefer MT, but I'm growing to like TNE, except for the lousy economic rules, and I like World Tamers as the best supplement, despite the rules problems in it, which I have just decided to apply my own house rules to and forget ever getting clear answers from the writers or publishers on some things.
I never liked the 3I setting, and don't consider it 'canon', just the inhouse setting for the publishers, to use as an example, not be a 'canon'.
The LBB's were designed as a framework for everybody to adapt their own 'house rules' to as they wished, and this is clearly stated to be the case in the LBB itself, so the whole 'canon' thing has reached the levels of absurdity only Geeks can reach.LOL
I guess I could be a Grognard, since I started wargaming in the late 60's, and RPG's, ChainMail being my first purchase of an RPG, as soon as I found them on the game store shelves, but my roots are in Napoleonic and Ancients wargaming, and I still usually adapt RPG'ing to wargaming and strategic level gaming. The referee runs the game, and if I don't like the game he runs, I just don't play it; I'm not going to tell anybody how to run their own games, nor do I let anybody tell me how to run mine; it's pretty simple.
As you may guess I have all the Chivalry And Sorcery books, too, which are still the ones I fool with the most, I also have the 'new' version C&C rules set, for the skills, tables, and other crunchy stuff, and I especially admire what the publishers of Harn did, a great body of work, especially the maps, and I think many of the Chtulu sourcebooks about the 1920's are the best ever published by the industry, and I don't even play Cthulu.
I never liked the 3I setting, and don't consider it 'canon', just the inhouse setting for the publishers, to use as an example, not be a 'canon'.
The LBB's were designed as a framework for everybody to adapt their own 'house rules' to as they wished, and this is clearly stated to be the case in the LBB itself, so the whole 'canon' thing has reached the levels of absurdity only Geeks can reach.LOL
I guess I could be a Grognard, since I started wargaming in the late 60's, and RPG's, ChainMail being my first purchase of an RPG, as soon as I found them on the game store shelves, but my roots are in Napoleonic and Ancients wargaming, and I still usually adapt RPG'ing to wargaming and strategic level gaming. The referee runs the game, and if I don't like the game he runs, I just don't play it; I'm not going to tell anybody how to run their own games, nor do I let anybody tell me how to run mine; it's pretty simple.
As you may guess I have all the Chivalry And Sorcery books, too, which are still the ones I fool with the most, I also have the 'new' version C&C rules set, for the skills, tables, and other crunchy stuff, and I especially admire what the publishers of Harn did, a great body of work, especially the maps, and I think many of the Chtulu sourcebooks about the 1920's are the best ever published by the industry, and I don't even play Cthulu.
