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Logistics Ships

My CR .02:

I agree with the poster up-thread that supplies, particularly hold-space for extended cruises and operations, was simply overlooked by the various designers at the time. The logical place treat the subject would have been in Trillion Credit Squadron, perhaps in the campaign rules. I don't recall anything in those rules requiring hold volume being set aside, though I believe there's discussion of field repairs (or is that in High Guard? Maybe both.) I'm pretty sure jump towing is discussed in the TCS campaign rules.

Hmm, can't recall if TCS covers ammo useage or not. I know somewhere in CT there's mention of battery-rounds of magazine capacity. Have to check - I'm thinking it's either in TCS or the special Missles supplement that came in JTAS. Well, Book 2 does talk about missle turret loads, but that's clearly aimed at the smaller ships and I *think* latter rules expanded considerably on the Book 2 rules.

Sidebar: Wouldn't it be a neat TCS variant to specify cruise duration & magazine capacity along with performance specs and pilot supply?

We have some references to extended operations in wartime in the OTU. Azhanti High Lighting or Lightning Class Cruisers describes the last mission of the Bard Endeavor, leading a squadron of smaller ships in commerce raiding operations in the latter portion of the Rim War. LCC also mentions that the class had copius hold space to support the ship's intended mission of deep penetration raiding. Can't remember if the cargo holds on the AHLs have doors which open to space; I'll look at my deckplans tonight.

LCC also covers refuelling operations for the AHLs. Though partially streamlined and capable of skimming on it's own, the AHL usually relies on it's 4 fuel shuttles to skim or perform ocean/ice refuelling. This process takes several days at minimum.

Fifth Frontier War, the boardgame, only deals with logistics in regards to refueling. Refueling is either immediate or takes a full turn (one week). Starports can refuel a number of squadrons per week-long turn based on the starport type. Naval and scout bases can refuel an unlimited number of squadrons in a week. Squadrons can conduct field refueling; the speed depends on their level of streamlining (full, partial or un-) and the resources in the system (essentially gas giants or oceans/ice on the mainworld). All of the combatants have at least one tanker squadron which can refuel some number of squadrons immediately, though that exhausts it's supply. (The tankers are all partially streamlined.) Otherwise squadrons roam the map without regard for supply issues. Squadrons can be repaired (5FW utilizes a counter-flipping step loss mechanic for space combat) only at friendly bases.

The Spinward Marches Campaign talks about the extended planetary sieges of Jewell and Efate in the Fifth Frontier War, and the Zhodani made a major push for Rhylanor late in that conflict which is also covered.

According to SMC the Zhodani besieged Jewell and Efate for over a year. Obviously they didn't carry supplies for many months of combat operations. Jewell is close to a number of Zhodani bases, but Efate was reached via Louzy, a system with a massive number of low-TL SDBs. SMC makes specific mention that Louzy's SDBs, which went scattered and went into hit-and-run mode very early in the war, severely hampered Zhodani logistics efforts sustaining operations at Efate.

Sidebar: You can't really recreate this situation in the 5FW boardgame. A competent Zhodani player can knock out both Jewell and Efate in a few turns each. I ran a PBEM game last year in which Jewell, Efate and Vilis - the three hi-pop "fortress" worlds all fell on Turn 6 or 7.

The implications I draw from all this, at least for the OTU, are:
- Many canonical ship designs are "broken" because they don't allocate sufficient hold space for operations. In part that's probably because the rules for consumables hadn't been codified yet.
- Some classes of ships are expected to undertake extended operations away from friendly support facilities. When some thought was put into it, space was set aside in the design for stores.
- Sieges, at least, require a path back to a friendly source of supply and sufficient transport capability to sustain operations.
- A certain level of combat capability can be restored in the field, but extensive repairs require a starport yard.
- Rapid field refuelling is possible if you've got a suitable source, but those big unstreamlined (and some partially streamlined) ships are going to require tanker support if you intend to travel far quickly.
- We've got some information on missile (and by implication, sandcaster) magazine requirements, but scant information on field resupply.
- Ditto for life support consumables.

Hope that helps!

- John
 
< hijack mode ON >
Rubber steak? Try eating food canned while you were in grade school. Three days worth of "Beef, Ground, w/Spice Sauce" C rations... boy, it sucked to be the last one to get to the box of rats...

Sheesh, you squids and zoomies...
file_23.gif


< hijack mode OFF >

ObTrav: check out the Everfresh Sandwiches at Freelance Traveller.


- John
 
Originally posted by Joseph Kimball:
Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?
Well, it's pretty much the idea I'm working with.

BTW, and I know I'm going to get beat up for this question but the article brought it to mind, is there any reason not to assume that sandcasters aren't just missle launchers with specialized ammo, allowing us to standardize both launchers and ammo sizes and make the operational differences be loadout, target selection, and usage protocols?

- Tom
 
is there any reason not to assume that sandcasters aren't just missle launchers with specialized ammo, allowing us to standardize both launchers and ammo sizes and make the operational differences be loadout, target selection, and usage protocols?
'swhat I do.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />is there any reason not to assume that sandcasters aren't just missle launchers with specialized ammo, allowing us to standardize both launchers and ammo sizes and make the operational differences be loadout, target selection, and usage protocols?
'swhat I do. </font>[/QUOTE]Same here, though I toyed with the idea of making the multi-launcher a higher cost (MCr 1.0 per instead of MCr0.75 or MCr0.25) item than the simpler dedicated launchers.
 
A dual mode launcher is a neat idea - IMTU the missile launcher is basically a rail gun that accelerates the missile towards the target ship before the missile's own maneuvering thrusters cut in for terminal guidance.

No reason why the missile payload can't be a sand cannister instead of a kinetic kill bundle, plasma/fusion warhead, or NBPL.

I also use the sand "screens" idea from T2300 ;)
 
^ Wouldn't it make sense for most military fleet support ships to be modular? with multi-mission capabilities? Need a tanker, strap on tanks; need dry goods, strap on boxes; need medical, strap on hab units. Sort of the Franz Joseph-USS Ptolemy approach.

I can see there also being smaller ships designed to support squadrons instead of fleets. These could be quicker and better armed so they could hang with the shooters near a battle sight. They would probably even be designed to interface with the modular mega-haulers for quick loading. Even these ships could be modular enough so the same hull could be used for a tanker, a dry store hauler, or other support craft (I have a 1000dT ship that I did just that to).

As for Navy chow; nothing beats Pace picante sauce. It makes whatever rehydrated mystery dish is under it almost bearable. I don't think there's a ship in the Pacific that would get underway without a ton of it.
 
Wouldn't it make sense for most military fleet support ships to be modular?
'gain, 'swhat I do. each general transport carries a module for cargo, troops, fuel, or hospital operations. 'spose there could be dozens of other options.
These could be quicker and better armed so they could hang with the shooters near a battle sight.
if the supply boat can jump with the fleet and maneuver with the fleet it probably won't have much room for cargo.
 
if the supply boat can jump with the fleet and maneuver with the fleet it probably won't have much room for cargo.
It isn't that bad. Under T20 a ship without (significant) weapons, no armor, no screens, and most importantly no power to run these can get to Naval speeds (J4M4) while still having approx 30% cargo space at TL13. I can see support squadrons (supply, fuel, medical, recovery, repair) having a lower standard of maneveurability (2G for example) though, this gains another 5% or so carry space.

You need the same jump speed at least, just to be in the same systems as the battleline.
 
Under T20
well yeah, I forgot my usual disclaimer of "depending on ruleset" etc. my stupid.

my fleet construction is based on HG2. the fleet is j4/m6. the support ships are tech 10 (with imported tech 13 jump drives), j4/m2. best they can do is about 26% devoted to mission cargo. m4 would drop them to 20% which isn't enough. in my rules they either hang out in the center of a dispersed fleet formation, or else lurk way off to one side where they cannot be easily engaged.
 
Could a battle rider tender be tasked with being a resupply vessel instead?

You could even have it carrying fast supply lighters that can maneuver with the fleet.

What role do the civilian/megacorp bulk cargo carriers have during military operations?
 
Could a battle rider tender be tasked with being a resupply vessel instead?
sure, if you don't mind the tender leaving its riders system-locked, and running around defenseless itself, for however long it takes to fulfill such a role. be a non-standard operation at best.

for the rest, depends on your tu. in mine the imperium theoretically owns all jump-capable vessels, but the navy doesn't like to call upon civilian capacity because of non-fleet-standard capabilities, unvetted personnel in contact with fleets and fleet equipment, and civilian indiscipline. depending on your sensor rules another issue might be that highly visible civilian vessels may give away the location of your stealthy task force.

it's not a simple subject.
 
Hmm, looking at the HG2 numbers if j4/m6 performance is needed for the resupply vessel they'd have quite a bit of space for cargo:

TL13/14 18% of the ship for crew, weapons, cargo;

TL15 24% of the ship for crew, weapons, cargo.

I'd probably build such a ship in the 15-19kt range.
 
If the resupply vessel is not meant to maneuver with the fleet then j4/m1 should be sufficient performance, with no real need to limit the size.

You could have one big ship to resupply an entire fleet.
 
Here's a thought that has just occurred to me, perhaps in the big ship universe of HG2/MT the reason to have escort class vessels in the sub 20kt range is to act as supply ships for the larger fighting craft.

If an enemy destroys a sufficient number of the escorts then the fleet suffers from logistic problems.
 
If an enemy destroys a sufficient number of the escorts then the fleet suffers from logistic problems.
yes. in considering traveller ship combat the concept of "hull dispersal" arises.

but there can be other reasons. imtu tech 15 shipyard space is limited and entirely occupied with combatant construction. it is left to the lesser yards to build non-combat ships. my supply ships are 19,000 dtons because that is the largest hull porozlo can build.
 
It would make a lot of sense for TL15 worlds to mass produce TL15 fusion power plants for merchant vessels to reduce the cost of said vessels.
The hulls etc. could be built elsewhere and the power plant shipped across for final assembly.

[aside]I was reading a book about the ironclad era recently and discovered that most of the r&d for steam engines in Great Britain was for the merchant fleet, the Royal Navy was very conservative in the rate at which it adopted the new technologies.[/aside]
 
For what it's worth imtu I see the logistics role being largely handled by subsidized ships. In a large ship universe there are subbies of several Kton size and imtu a few up to J4 capable*, but almost always 2g at the most.

* Though most are J2 or J3 but able to make J4 in two jumps using dismountable tanks. There are also a very few rare J5 subbies for servicing the isolated islands systems.

In peacetime they go about their usual business contracted to whatever routes, with a good part of their business involving routine routing of some military supplies and personnel.

Comes war though the subbies are activated as merchant navy auxiliaries, gunned up, personnel transferred as needed (gunners and marines mostly), and they go full time into a support role.

Also, similar to flykiller, mtu requires ships be serviced at a starport of sufficient TL so my TL15 ports are almost exclusively Imperial Military Shipyards. TL13 and TL14 are limited to powerful friendlies (nobles, mega-corps, local SDBs, and the like). Civilian ships (small traders and such) are TL9 through TL12 only. My Imperium likes to control the space between the stars by limiting the level of Jump available and the strength of ships this way. Weapons and power both get a boost at TL13 so that's one cut-off. The other big cut-offs are armor and Jump. Nobody outside of the Imperial high nobility and military have J6. Anyway, this last bit is a bit off topic but related.
 
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