Low Passage

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Hmmmm. Have I too become a thread-ender?

Can you give a more recent example of this phenomenon? (Dude, it ended in 2002, and you're just now noticing? )

</font>[/QUOTE]Well Fritz..I get back from Iraq, last April 06th to the house..then, we get called to Katrina Aug 31- Feb 28 this year..time kinda flies ya know. I did a search of the topic, got 13 'hits', but then my co-Gm asks me (since we're in a TNE-setting) and recovering folks from low berth, etc etal, and hauling passengers via 'berths in this region.

Sorry--its not a trusting era in the Wilds--they'll haul biofreight, but cows don't hijack already scarce ships, and inflation has hit the market on passage fees among my Free Traders in game)

Recent examples? Lol.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plankowner:
Well, I can give the Imperial Navy answer to how long it takes to revive a Low Passage: Less than 1 combat round.

Per High Guard page 33 under the discussion of The Frozen Watch:

"Replacement personnel are kept available in low berths for continuous replacement of casualties and battle losses; between battles, the frozen watch can be revived ans used to restore lost crew. (emphasis mine)

Keep reading

on page 44 it states that reviving the frozen watch takes two turns - so that's forty minutes

</font>[/QUOTE]================================================

Plankowner, Sigg!

Ok, HG combat turns, are what in minutes? 10, okay? So I read 20 minutes thawing & up for duty etc, am I getting this straight?

More detail..
In-game I surmised with my Co-GM (neither of us had HG (Any version) at hand when we discussed this FYI, but the heat of the moment has passed so I turn to our trusty brain-trust here for better clarification), as we were unloading a 92dt total cargo & 12x berthed passengers--the time in game to accomplish the reviving process. We settled on 30 minutes per, but if there is precedent (like HG) I'd like to know it.

 

[mike wightman]

No, High Guard turns are twenty minutes long. It takes two of them, hence forty minutes

MT/DGP may have more info on this...

 

[far-trader]

...and further, besides it taking two turns you have to be "between battles", or presumably in the reserve line and still screened, to do it. There is no defrost cycle while in combat it seems, perhaps the medics are too busy treating injuries?

Anyway, back to Liam's new questions, and my current thoughts on it per CT:

1.) How much time does it take to freeze a passenger/ frozen watch troop/spacer in a low berth IYTU?

2.) How much time does it take to revive same sophont from low berth?

Three different answers actually, one for each type of coffin/procedure.

a) Standard Passage Lowberth - Time is not too critical, but survival is. This is the average of the three and takes 1 turn (15 or 20 minutes) for each process (freeze and thaw) and is largely automated. Attending medic(s) are a good idea for complications. I use the standard 5+ revival roll for complications, not death, and no DMs. If your End is 6- you won't be accepted for low passage. If a passenger develops complications then a second 5+ roll is made for death with DM +1 per Medical skill, so a Doctor (Medical-3) has no problems treating complications. A single Doctor can only treat one person at a time however, so it may be advisable to thaw your passengers one at a time. Complications add another turn to recovery time.

b) Emergency Lowberth - Time is critical for freezing to offer the best chance of later treatment of the injury after thawing or to get frozen before the emergency kills you. The trade off is a longer and riskier thaw. Essentially no time is needed to crash freeze but double the time to thaw. The revival roll is bumped to 8+ with the same procedure above for attending Medical skill. Patients with End 6- incur a DM-1.

c) Frozen Watch Lowberth - These are the opposite design to the Emergency Lowberths, trading a speedy thaw for a long freeze. They are also inherently safer for this reason with a revival throw of 2+. Medical skill is required for the freezing but not the thawing which can be safely automated. It takes two turns to freeze each person but thawing is essentially instantaneous. The reason IMTU for the two turns to activate the Frozen Watch in HG is the time to get the replacements kitted, briefed of the situation, and to their stations.

3.) How long can you exist and still be revived from lowberth?

IMTU there is essentially no limit, providing the lowberth is maintained and not damaged. The freeze cycle uses the induction charge(1) of chemicals and drugs to produce the hibernation state and ship power to activate the freeze, and then no more input is required. The thaw cycle requires ship power to control the thaw and uses the revival charge(1) of chemicals and drugs held in reserve to counter the hibernation state.

A weekly 13+ check is made on 2D6 for a lowberth fault with a DM +1 per week past annual maintenance. If a fault is indicated check immediately for failure using the appropriate revival odds. If there is no failure the person continues in hibernation. If a failure is indicated the person dies unless thawed immediately. Most lowberths have a default for automated thaw upon failure giving the occupant a chance to survive.

Frozen Watch Lowberth procedures essentially mean there is no chance for failure unless the lowberth is damaged. Note that Frozen Watch Lowberths and Standard Lowberths are the same, only the procedures used differ.

The Frozen Watch procedures are also used by people who use lowberths to time travel into the future. They use a facility that will put them into hibernation and maintain the lowberth until the date or some condition they have chosen comes to pass. Costs vary but usually start at twice the cost of standard low passage per year, but does not include any actual travel.

(1) The induction and revial charge of chemicals and drugs are what cost the Cr100. Extra charges may be bought and carried, at the standard cost and taking up 0.01tons each.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
No, High Guard turns are twenty minutes long. It takes two of them, hence forty minutes

MT/DGP may have more info on this...

Thanks Sigg, you're the HG-answer man!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by far-trader:


[SMALL SNIP]
Anyway, back to Liam's new questions, and my current thoughts on it per CT:

1.) How much time does it take to freeze a passenger/ frozen watch troop/spacer in a low berth IYTU?

2.) How much time does it take to revive same sophont from low berth?

Three different answers actually, one for each type of coffin/procedure.

a) Standard Passage Lowberth - Time is not too critical, but survival is. This is the average of the three and takes 1 turn (15 or 20 minutes) for each process (freeze and thaw) and is largely automated. Attending medic(s) are a good idea for complications. I use the standard 5+ revival roll for complications, not death, and no DMs. If your End is 6- you won't be accepted for low passage.

AHA! You've been reading my mind for the next series of questions Mr. Burns! We use a T20 3d6 mechanic in game, I can adjust the specs for us Dan, ty!

If a passenger develops complications then a second 5+ roll is made for death with DM +1 per Medical skill, so a Doctor (Medical-3) has no problems treating complications. A single Doctor can only treat one person at a time however, so it may be advisable to thaw your passengers one at a time. Complications add another turn to recovery time.

b) Emergency Lowberth - Time is critical for freezing to offer the best chance of later treatment of the injury after thawing or to get frozen before the emergency kills you. The trade off is a longer and riskier thaw. Essentially no time is needed to crash freeze but double the time to thaw. The revival roll is bumped to 8+ with the same procedure above for attending Medical skill. Patients with End 6- incur a DM-1.

c) Frozen Watch Lowberth - These are the opposite design to the Emergency Lowberths, trading a speedy thaw for a long freeze. They are also inherently safer for this reason with a revival throw of 2+. Medical skill is required for the freezing but not the thawing which can be safely automated. It takes two turns to freeze each person but thawing is essentially instantaneous. The reason IMTU for the two turns to activate the Frozen Watch in HG is the time to get the replacements kitted, briefed of the situation, and to their stations.

3.) How long can you exist and still be revived from lowberth?

IMTU there is essentially no limit, providing the lowberth is maintained and not damaged. The freeze cycle uses the induction charge(1) of chemicals and drugs to produce the hibernation state and ship power to activate the freeze, and then no more input is required. The thaw cycle requires ship power to control the thaw and uses the revival charge(1) of chemicals and drugs held in reserve to counter the hibernation state.

A weekly 13+ check is made on 2D6 for a lowberth fault with a DM +1 per week past annual maintenance. If a fault is indicated check immediately for failure using the appropriate revival odds. If there is no failure the person continues in hibernation. If a failure is indicated the person dies unless thawed immediately. Most lowberths have a default for automated thaw upon failure giving the occupant a chance to survive.

Frozen Watch Lowberth procedures essentially mean there is no chance for failure unless the lowberth is damaged. Note that Frozen Watch Lowberths and Standard Lowberths are the same, only the procedures used differ.

The Frozen Watch procedures are also used by people who use lowberths to time travel into the future. They use a facility that will put them into hibernation and maintain the lowberth until the date or some condition they have chosen comes to pass. Costs vary but usually start at twice the cost of standard low passage per year, but does not include any actual travel.

(1) The induction and revial charge of chemicals and drugs are what cost the Cr100. Extra charges may be bought and carried, at the standard cost and taking up 0.01tons each.

Dan Burns/Far Trader, that is slap-dang what I was looking for. Expect a PM asap.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Okay Second set of questions (minus one) for ya'll (some of which relates to Ms Mickazoid's fine orbital ASLT/ Troop Support ship & others:

1.) How many medical personnel do you need to revive/freeze per the number of lowberths? In ms Mickazoid's ship, 1 Dr +4 medics for 80 Lowberths comes to 5/80 1 per 16 in military vessels.

A)-Civilian
B)-Frozenwatch
C)-Emergency (4-person)

2.) Given that safe Lowberth travel comes in at TL-8 and was used in STL early colony ships a lot, and now is a both a safety feature & low budget 3rd-class passenger item aboard traveller jump-craft, do you use any DM's for the TL of the Lowberth itself in the freezing/thawing process task roll?

TNE example
TL8-9 = +0
TLA-B = +1
TLC-D = +2
TLE-F = +3

T20 example
TL8 = -1
TL9-A = +0
TLB-C = +1
TLD-E = +2
TLF-G = +3

3.) IYTU, is the "freezing" a medical chemical process (an anti-freeze/ anti-aging injection) producing stasis, and not a true -32F/ 0-C freeze; Or literally an immersion process into a gaseous chemical compund with some sort of lifesupport, or both?

And I await your findings!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Nudge..

Nudge...

Hello?

 

[Jame]

IMTU, low berths are almost entirely used in civilian transport, and when in government service are used for prisoner or troop transport - never crew.

 

[aramis]

One thing about the MT rules: even if the 'doc' fails the revival, you're likely not to be dead. It requires a 3d mishap to kill someone*, and even then it's rare. Especially since mishaps are rolled on 2d most of the time. (Superficial is 3+, Minor 7+, Major 11+, destroyed 15+) Basically, either a natural 2 on the task roll or an unskilled attempt are needed to make death potentially possible; both mean it's just about guaranteed!

* unless they were already injured.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Jame:
IMTU, low berths are almost entirely used in civilian transport, and when in government service are used for prisoner or troop transport - never crew.

================================================
Ok Jame, not for crew purposes? Okayyyyyyy...
The Multi-TU lists three kinds I've discovered from above listed poster's help:

Lowberth (single tube)

Frozen Watch (Single tube military)

Emergency Lowberth (4-sophont capable).

YTU is yours. Many non-military (player-character) small ships however, have at least 6-20 Lowberths in them (200dtn A1 & A2-Trader vessel variants have 6-10; the 400dton Sub Freighter & M-class 600dtn Sub Liner have 20 each by basic design package listing).

The thrust of my line of questioning is aimed towards getting a better understanding of the oft-glossed over cryo-berthing process of passengers, which in My TNE-set campaign, has now become regionally an accepted means for passenger travel by the masters of these still working starships (fewer hijacking from lowberthers than waking passengers).

It stands to reason Jame, if you had to wait out a rescue in deep far system (beyond Pluto's 9th orbit in some systems), and you had no passengers (zero), trust me, the crew would lowberth to conserve food & power, yessir.

Agreed--military troops are more easily transported by frozenwatch/ lowberth. Less cost in food, etc. the FASA designed Tethys-class 900/1kton Merc cruiser is an apt example of carrying a full 125-man company plus vehicles & 5x 20dt landers, iirc.

Where this may boil down to for My TU campaign, is the survivability of folks found in any one of the three named cryo-devices found by our players out in the Wilds 80+ years or so after the advent of Virus.

 

[Liam Devlin]

How about on civilian ships we use the 1x medical /20x lowberth passengers? If CT/HG uses the 1x medical /16x Frozen watch crew scale, is this unreasonable a presumption of looking at the rules (and of course using the logic that the military has better LB & Higher medic/ FWC ratio for surviving)?

Your thoughts gentlemen, ladies?

 

[Golan2072]

My view on this subject (uses the UGM task system):

Cross-posted from this thread.

There are two "modes" of Cryosleep, depending on how you get frozen and/or thawed.

Standard "freeze" takes an hour, requires the supervision of a Medic (skill of 1 atleast) per 10 low passengers and involves slow reduction of lifesigns and temperature and several measures introduced to reduce the chance of a cryo-shock.

Emergency "freeze" takes a minute, requires no medic, and is activated by entering a cryotube (or being placed in it) and pressing the "emergency" button, either from within or from without. The tube injects the subject with fast-acting cryodrugs (and anti-ice-crystal nanites, similar to those used in the standard procedure but in a larger dose) and drops the temperature and the lifesigns quickly. Emergency Low Berths always use this method for "freeze", but could still use the standard method for "thawing".

Standard "thawing" takes an hour, requires the supervision of a Medic (skill of 1 atleast) per 10 low passengers and involved a slow increase in temperature and lifesigns. Afterwards, the subject suffers from 1d6 hours of an extremely unpleasant "hangover", i.e. having all of his stats functioning at half their value.

Emergency "thawing" is commenced by either activating the cryotube's emergency deactivation sequence or by it losing external power. It takes 2d6 minutes, in which a very large dose of post-cryo drugs is injected into the subject, combined with a rapid increase in temperature. The near-OD level of drugs delays the "hangover", allowing the subject to function normally immidately for 24 hours, but after this time the drugs wear off and the subject suffers from an extreme "hangover" (all stats functioning as if they were 1) for 1d3 days.

Waking up someone from cryosleep using the standard procedure is a Medic/INT/+2 UGM task rolled by the medic; additional DM -2 if only one medic per 50 people (rather than 10) is present, -2 if an Emergency procedure was used to freeze the subject, +1 if TL 10-11, +2 if TL 12-14, +3 if TL15+, -1 if the subject's END is 6-.

Waking up from cryosleep using the emergency procedure is a END only UGM task rolled by the subject; DM -2 if an Emergency procedure was used to freeze the subject, +1 if TL 10-11, +2 if TL 12-14, +3 if TL15+, -1 if the subject's END is 6-.

In all cases the task is rolled only when "thawing".

In the standard "thawing" procedure, a normal failure causes an "Hangover" of 1d6 days, a Spectacular Success prevents the "Hangover" entirely, and a Spectacular Failure causes a moderate cryo-shock, causing 1d6 standard (fully healable) damage per attribute (except for SOC); treat this damage as per normal CT combat rules.

In the emergency "thawing" procedure, a normal failure causes a moderate cryo-shock, causing 1d6 standard (fully healable) damage per attribute (except for SOC), a Spectacular Success reduces the Hangover to 4d6 hours only, and a Spectacular Failure causes a severe cryo-shock, causing 2d6 standard (fully healable, if the subject survives) damage per attribute (except for SOC); treat this damage as per normal CT combat rules.

 

[Jame]

Liam, putting crew into low berths in an emergincy is survival - not passage. So what I mean is that backup crew is not carried on military vessels for purposes other than emergency survival, on the basis that naval combat is destructive enough that there might not be anything for the frozen watch to crew (i.e. their post would be destroyed along with the crewmember they'd replace). That and I think that most vessels IMTU would not exceed 30-60,000 tons, for any number of reasons (e.g. force coverage and ship-building economics).

YTU should, will and is expected to vary.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Jame-Of course & agreed. I see your point, and the thrust of your statement more clearly now. 'Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Employee 2-4601--Aha! Your light-years ahead of me I see with this UGM thingy! Durn, I was working on a T20 version of this and explaining tasks of Hacking, yet I see you have already gone there too. Hmmm.. well, as we're using T20-mechanics I shant give up on them!

I do very much like your end results, and the medical aspects (what happens when stuff goes wrong) for those who think its (lowberths/ cryo-sleeping) are "risk free".

a 1x medic to 10x cryo-sleepers ratio, eh? That can change things like crew requirements aboard ships a wee bit, but nothing daunting or 'Verse shattering.

I'm sorry I missed your UGM thread when ya started it, I'll peruse after our "2 week's a year" and ferment some more ideas! Plenty to catch up on after the 24th I see! Thanks for your insight!

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

As a GM, I never had to come up with an exact revival time. I'd always hung my hat on the HG2 'two combat round' time frame. So, I measured the task to a precision that was within tens of minutes and not within within seconds.

The nearest I ever came to having to pin down an exact time came during a session in which I running "Death Station on steroids". The players were active duty IISS and crewed a scout/courier. They were delivering personal to a geo-survey party on Burtson/Trin and were tapped to board the lab ship. As I had counted on, the players 'woke' some of the members of the geo-survey team in order bulk-up their boarding party. What I didn't count on was the players plotting an intercept course at 1-gee instead of at 2-gees.

The 2-gee course would have required the players to choose which geo-survey party members they wanted to wake. I was prepared, as the NPC medic, to inform the players of this and then force a choice.

Using the HG2 "two combat round" rule, I was prepared to say that:

- Revival and removal from the berth took ~30 minutes. In this period the medic has told the berth to awaken the sleeper, is monitoring the sleeper, making adjustments as required, and is removing the sleeper from the berth at the end.
- Recovery outside of the berth took ~10 minutes. In this period, the ex-sleeper is sitting somewhere quietly slurping water and/or broth and trying to 'wake up' mentally. The medic may or may not be checking the ex-sleeper depending on how well they did. (This is a rip straight from Cherryh.)
- That one medic could monitor two berth revivals at once. This meant that a medic could 'stagger' revivals, have one beginning, one running, and one ended at the same time;

00:00hrs - Medic begins to wake Sleeper A
00:15hrs - Medic begins to wake Sleeper B
00:30hrs - Sleeper A removed from berth, medic begins to wake Sleeper C
00:40hrs - Sleeper A okayed to leave
00:45hrs - Sleeper B removed from berth, medic begins to wake Sleeper D
00:55hrs - Sleeper B okayed to leave
01:00hrs - Sleeper C removed from berth, medic begins to wake Sleeper E
01:10hrs - Sleeper C okayed to leave

And so on. (This, of course still doesn't explain how an entire frozen watch can be thawed in 40 minutes!)

Hope this nonsense helps.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Employee 2-4601--Aha! Your light-years ahead of me I see with this UGM thingy! Durn, I was working on a T20 version of this and explaining tasks of Hacking, yet I see you have already gone there too. Hmmm.. well, as we're using T20-mechanics I shant give up on them!

I do very much like your end results, and the medical aspects (what happens when stuff goes wrong) for those who think its (lowberths/ cryo-sleeping) are "risk free".

Thanks for your kind word

By the way, UGM itself is not my work - the task system WJP's creation, though the entire task library, and parts of the task system itself too (opposed tasks and cooperative tasks) are my creaton. I see it as our joint project.

a 1x medic to 10x cryo-sleepers ratio, eh? That can change things like crew requirements aboard ships a wee bit, but nothing daunting or 'Verse shattering.

What is the medic-to-berth ratio in cannon?

I'm sorry I missed your UGM thread when ya started it, I'll peruse after our "2 week's a year" and ferment some more ideas! Plenty to catch up on after the 24th I see! Thanks for your insight!

You could simply download the summery from the link in my sig.

 

[Straybow]

Who would do anything that has such a large chance of death or severe injury? 1-in-200 chance is way too risky.

Imagine what it would be like to fly if instead of worrying about losing your luggage you had to worry about not coming out of the trip whole and healthy.

Any takers?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Who would do anything that has such a large chance of death or severe injury? 1-in-200 chance is way too risky.

Imagine what it would be like to fly if instead of worrying about losing your luggage you had to worry about not coming out of the trip whole and healthy.

Any takers?

I'll take those odds (0.5% chance of death) if it means getting off-world to a whole 'nother solar system, probably a better one, for a measly $3000 (or so after conversion). In a heartbeat, especially since that's all the time the trip will take subjectively.

I think it's a lot safer than you might imagine.

Consider*...

The choice to use Tobacco in the U.S. results in 435,000 deaths a year (18.1 percent of total U.S. deaths). And yet smoking among females is rising.

Or the choice or circumstance in the U.S. of a poor diet and little physical activity results in 400,000 deaths a year (16.6 percent of total U.S. deaths). And yet fast food outlets grow by leaps and bounds (ironic metaphor that) and people keep getting lazier and fatter.

Or even the choice of alcohol consumption in the U.S. leading to 85,000 deaths a year (3.5 percent of total U.S. deaths). And binge drinking among youth and drinking and driving are as bad now as they ever were.

* Figures from 2000 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association

And that's just a few quick fact grabs

 

[Valarian]

What are the risks of air travel? Anyone?