Low Tech - Early Period

[Valarian]

Has anybody ever thought about what would have happened if the Ziru Sirka (First Imperium) had collapsed under the pressure before Terrans left the solar system?

My initial thoughts on the era would be that the Vegans revolted, and managed to cause the collapse. The Vegans would have a small regional empire (roughly the Vegan Autonomous district of later eras). They would have captured vessels as a navy etc.

A small remnant of the Imperium may still exist under Vilani rule in the (Solomani) Rim.

The Terrans expand in to a galaxy where there are the ruins of past settlements - apparently by humans like themselves. Speculation of alien abduction? First contact with the Vegans goes badly - the Vegans see the Terrans and think that they are the Vilani. A war ensues before the mistake can be rectified.

There will be varied elements for adventure. The Long Night descending on the Ziru Sirka, colonies doomed without the technology to support the infrastructure. At the same time, the Terrans would be freed to explore without trying to salvage the doomed empire.

Opinions / ideas?

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

This is a great idea. Perchance a civil war could break out between the Solomani. Both sides trying to establish a Second Imperium but under differing methodolgies, especially after the war with the Vegans.

One side's argument could be: "...past incidents prove that humans are not welcome outside its own territory. Therefore, we must rise up and establish our dominance and superiority to the aliens."

The other side could argue the following: "...despite the difficulties we have faced in the past with alien contact, we should our territory under one pact for commerce and defense."

Contact with the Ziru Sirka drums up a few ideas. A feww remnants that have the TLs band together to oppose the Solomani or join with them to remain in power itself. The Ziru Sirka cound use the new alliance as a means to regain its former glory and exact revenge against its enemies.

Not sure how contact with the Zhodani would go. Probably some form of misunderstanding between the two races or a horrible incident involving psionics.

Contact with the Aslan would just be bloody. Both races looking to expand and neither one willing to concede anything after civilian casualties start to mount.

Well, that's just off the top of my head since I'm in a rush at work.

 

[Valarian]

Contact with the Aslan and the Terrans would probably equate to the contact between the Orion Khanate and Terran Federation in David Weber & Steve White's books (Insurrection, Crusade etc.)

The Zhodani would probably have a free reign to expand further than they have done as the Solomani / Second Imperium wouldn't be there to halt expansion. I would think that the Zhodani would own everything on their side of the rift not already owned by the Aslan. They would also probably own the Deneb side of the corridor.

A small Vilani Empire would probably still exist around Vland - it would be whatever territory the Vilani could still manage in the chaos (or have retrieved since). This empire would limit the extent to the Zhodani expansion, rather than any Solomani effort. My idea is that the Ziru Sirka collapses some time before the Terrans gain the jump drive (a century or two). However, as there was no fight with the Vilani, the Terrans may still be split on national lines (a la 2300) - unless the fight with the Vegans was enough to bring the nations together.

Terrans - TL 9/10 in general with TL12 military maximum.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Valarian:
Contact with the Aslan and the Terrans would probably equate to the contact between the Orion Khanate and Terran Federation in David Weber & Steve White's books (Insurrection, Crusade etc.)


Perhaps and perhaps not.

Canonically, the Aslan didn't independently invent jump drive. Instead, a Terran scout vessel; TNS Pathfinder, misjumped into the Aslan home system and the Aslan took things from there.

Making matters worse, at the time Pathfinder arrived, the Aslan were on the brink of their THIRD world war and their SECOND nuclear one. A war they themselves admit would have been geoncidal.

Remove the Ziru Sirka and remove the need for a unified Earth. Remove a unified Earth and remove the Terran Confederation. Remove the Terran Confederation and remove TNS Pathfinder. Remove Pathfinder and the Aslan nuke themselves into oblivion. Finis Aslanii.

Having another Terran or Vegan vessel in this setting misjump into the Aslan home system at exactly the same time Pathfinder did in the orignal and with exactly the same effects asoccurred in the original setting beggars disbelief.

The Zhodani would probably have a free reign to expand further than they have done as the Solomani / Second Imperium wouldn't be there to halt expansion.

Sorry, no. The Consulate reached what it's rulers felt was an optimum size long before the Ziru Sirka fell. Other than support colonies along the Core Route, there has been no Zhodani expansion for over four thousand years.

The Zhodani do patrol, monitor, interfere, and fight wars in a roughly sector-width zone past their borders though. This 'forward' strategy gives the Consulate proper a defensive glacis. The Five Frontier Wars were not fought to expand the Consulate's borders. Instead, they were fought to fix the Third Imperium's borders.

A small Vilani Empire would probably still exist around Vland - it would be whatever territory the Vilani could still manage in the chaos (or have retrieved since).

True. There will also be several 'empires' centered around the various minor races the Vilani conquered. There would be a Geonee empire, a Suerrat empire, a Bwap empire, and so forth.

However, as there was no fight with the Vilani, the Terrans may still be split on national lines (a la 2300) - unless the fight with the Vegans was enough to bring the nations together.

That is a possibility.

A wild card in all this is the Vargr. They did invent jump drive independently and how they interacted with the Ziru Sirka is still vague. We know that the Vargr began raiding the coreward half of the ZS about the same time the Terrans began kicking up a fuss on the Rim. We also know that various ZS governors hired and armed Vargr factions for use in various internal ZS political power plays.

How much technology was 'leaked' to the Vargr in this manner? How much of a 'lure' was this; employment, loot, etc., to the Vargr? Did it shape Vargr settlement patterns?

A look at the shape of the Extents with respect to the location of Lair does show that the Vargr-settled areas are somewhat 'lopsided'. They extend further rimward and trailing - that is toward the territories of the old Ziru Sirka - than they do coreward and spinward. (Of course, the Zhodani lay to spinward thus cramping expansion in that direction, but little would have hindered exploration and expansion coreward.)

All in all, a very good idea for a very good setting. I do hope you share more of it with us when you work it out.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Valarian]

I didn't know this about the Aslan - I'm pretty new to the Traveller Universe. I'll have to think about whether to follow canon here, or have them discover the jump drive themselves. I was thinking of having the Aslan as the major border threat as the main Vilani empire would be too far distant to cause worries to the Terrans. The Aslan space I'd pictured would consist of several small warring empires, split along clan lines. Later in the timeline they could combine to form a major threat if required.

Any suggestions as to where I can pick up some of the canon detail. I've tried surfing various sites. I've got a historical timeline (collated by Clayton Bush) but this seems to concentrate on the human/imperial (Vilani, Solomani, Sylean) outlook.

I've also got another timeline, edited by Don McKinney. This confirms the Aslan not having the Jump drive until later. It's got the Pathfinder crashlanding on Kusyu in -2013, 94 years after the Third Aslan World War (-2098) and seventy years after the formation of the Tlaukhu. The Aslan don't get Jump drive until -1999 - 14 years after the Pathfinder incident. However, as the Aslan managed to survive for nearly a century after the war until the Pathfinder showed up - I think it's unlikely that they would have nuked themselves in to oblivion in the absence of the Solomani. Their arrival on the interstellar scene would be later though without the crashed ship to analyse.

I suppose I can beef up the Vegans a bit, and maybe have a large Vilani remnant in the neighbourhood as antagonists.

 

[Spinward Scout]

How the Collapse happened:

An Aide runs into the room, "Sir, Sir! The Vegans are revolting!"

The Admiral looks up and says, "Yes, yes, I find them quite disgusting..." and turns back to his 3D novel.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Ok, don't everyone groan all at once...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Maybe that should be on the "Then the fight started" thread....

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Valarian:
I didn't know this about the Aslan - I'm pretty new to the Traveller Universe. I'll have to think about whether to follow canon here, or have them discover the jump drive themselves.


Valarian,

If given the choice between following canon or not, I'd ditch canon. You're building a new setting here, your decisions are the only ones that matter.

The Aslan space I'd pictured would consist of several small warring empires, split along clan lines. Later in the timeline they could combine to form a major threat if required.

Combining to form a major threat is not canonical Aslan behavior. Please note, I said canonical behavior. How your Aslan in your setting behave is entirely your brief.

This confirms the Aslan not having the Jump drive until later.

Nothing needed to be 'confirmed'. What I told you about the Aslan 'development' of jump drive is canon. It was one of the big relevations in MT. The OOP Solomani & Aslan covers it as well as the G:T Alien Races 2. According to Joe Fugate, the DGP honcho, the idea of the Aslan not being a major race dates from early in CT. Library data and maps all hint at the idea.

Again, whether it should be part of your setting's canon is up to you.

However, as the Aslan managed to survive for nearly a century after the war until the Pathfinder showed up - I think it's unlikely that they would have nuked themselves in to oblivion in the absence of the Solomani.

Your opinion is the only one that counts in your setting. However, your opinion about the long term viability of the Aslan without jump drive; i.e. nuking themselves into oblivion, is at odds with the hobby's majority opinion. Of course, the hobby's opinion was shaped by materials you have not read. Simply put, the history told as part of the Traveller Digest 'Four Knights' adventure that revealed the Aslan secret is pretty clear.

TNS Pathfinder landed on Kusyu during the tense final negotiation period preceding what all Aslan knew would be their final war. After speaking with the stranded Terrans, female Aslan negotiator was able to broker a deal between the two most powerful Aslan clans and avert the war. The clans ended up sharing the secret of jump drive.

You'll also need to reexamine the timelines you found with regards to the formation of the Tlaukhu it it's current form and the timing of the Aslan specie's 'Cultural Purge'. Aslan behavior it the Classic Era is not comparable to Aslan behavior in that specie's pre-jump drive era.

Again, all of this is canon and all of it need play no role at all in your setting.

All I wanted to point out is that the majority of settings that fiddle with Earth's expansion into space; i.e. No Grandfather, no ZS, earlier jump drive, etc. remove the Aslan from the Major Race list for the reasons I've stated. Most settings of the type you're building end up excluding the Aslan. The most severe settings of this type; i.e. No Grandfather, limit the Major Races to Terran/Solomani, Hiver, and K'Kree as the emergence of the others relies either wholly or in part on the Ancient's scattering of human races.

Finally, do not overlook the Vargr. Canonically, they caused the ZS a great deal of trouble to coreward. Some even suggest that Vilani attention was split equally between the Terran and Vargr threats thus allowing both to succeed.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Golan2072]

Ofcourse, you could also have the Aslan nuke themselves to near extinction (i.e. 95% population loss or more, standard post-apocalyptic environment on their homeworld, play Mad Max with dewclaws if you want

), and then partially uplifted by someone - either a Terran faction, or something else - Hiver manipulations, mayhap?

 

[mike wightman]

Have the Aslan nuke themselves - the clans that have the jump drive will have off world colonies and can start over.

If you don't want to stick to Traveller canon too much may I suggest a nice race of aliens to worry the Terrans - the kafer

 

[Valarian]

Quote [Bill] "Combining to form a major threat is not canonical Aslan behavior. Please note, I said canonical behavior. How your Aslan in your setting behave is entirely your brief."

I was thinking more of one clan gaining dominance over the others, subsuming other clans as it goes.

Quote [Bill]: "Finally, do not overlook the Vargr".

I have a problem getting my head around the pack mentality of the Vargr. They are described as pirates / corsairs and that they are uplifted (Ancient modified, rather than GenAssist) wolves. I've not got much more than this to go on though. Any recommendations for further information?

Does anyone know if a T20 races sourcebook is planned? Do the races sourcebooks for any of the other Traveller rulesets give background information without too many rules?

 

[Jame]

I'm gonna hafta say that Siggy Baby is gonna hafta post CT stats for the Kafers, plus a (Traveller-Revised) history, for those of us without 2300 AD...

Note that if such is illegal than it has lost my support.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Valarian:
Does anyone know if a T20 races sourcebook is planned? Do the races sourcebooks for any of the other Traveller rulesets give background information without too many rules?

Dunno about a T20 alien sourcebook.

You have two main options for getting information on the Traveller races:
- Buy the CT Classic Aliens reprints. There are two volumes: Alien Modules 1-4 and Alien Modules 5-8. Each will cost you about $30 unless you get lucky on eBay.
- Buy the GURPS Traveller Alien Races books. There are three that cover the major races. AR1 covers the Zhodani and Vargr. AR2 covers the Aslan and K'kree. AR3 covers the Hivers and Droyne. You can get AR1-3 for $9.95 each from SJG's Warehouse 23. (If you really want to go nuts, you can also get AR4, which includes several minor races, and Humaniti, which includes a bunch of minor human races.)

Which path you want is up to you. The GT:AR books are cheaper and have more "history" in them, but it's your nickel.

(For what it is worth, I have all of these.)

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Jame:
I'm gonna hafta say that Siggy Baby is gonna hafta post CT stats for the Kafers, plus a (Traveller-Revised) history, for those of us without 2300 AD...

Or, to make it worth his while, he needs to make it a Traveller's Aide, give it both CT and T20 stats, and sell it through the CotI eLibrary.

I would buy that if it was made even remotely well.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yeah, what daryen said!

 

[Valarian]

Originally posted by daryen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jame:
I'm gonna hafta say that Siggy Baby is gonna hafta post CT stats for the Kafers, plus a (Traveller-Revised) history, for those of us without 2300 AD...

Or, to make it worth his while, he needs to make it a Traveller's Aide, give it both CT and T20 stats, and sell it through the CotI eLibrary.

I would buy that if it was made even remotely well. </font>[/QUOTE]Any chance of a T20 Travellers Aide giving the histories of the major races? (or even minor races)