Lull?

[tbeard1999]

How many books did you have to buy with CT to get all that though?

Don't forget that MGT is supposed to be the core rules for SF gaming, not just for the OTU. So they're leaving the OTU-specific stuff for supplements, and keeping the main rulebook as generic as possible.

If a subsector map is included, I think it's reasonable to ask why the UPPs are absent.

And as noted elewhere, MGT has about the same number of pages as LBB1-7+Supplement 4 (counting 2 LBB pages as 1 letter/A4 page). So it's fair, I think, to note that MGT's coverage is significantly less than a comparable number of CT pages.

To be fair, the cost of LBBs 1-7+Supplement 4 in 1981 would have been $10 for LBB1-3, +$6 for LBB4+7 + $5 for Supp 4 = $39.00. Adjusted for inflation, this would total $96.95.**

At $40, the MGT core rules cover about 40% of the CT material above, for about 40% of the cost. So in raw economic terms, it's a wash. However, when Mercenary and High Guard are added, the total cost of MGT will be $120 and the coverage will still be less than the CT material above.

IIRC, Megatraveller sold for about $20 in 1986. Adjusted for inflation, this is about $38.00. Yet I'd submit that Megatraveller had much more material than MGT.

**THIS probably explains why GDW stayed with the LBBs long after everyone else shifted to 8.5 x 11 format. In reality, CT was a very expensive ruleset. As noted above, MegaTraveller covered as much material as LBBs 1-8 (*and* added a Striker-derived vehicle design system), yet sold for 1/3 the price.

 

[tbeard1999]

I agree, mainly as there just isn't enough there.


I'm sure many of us will feel a bond with these opinions.

I nearly blew coffee all over my desk when I saw this. ROTFLOL!

 

[Jame]

T20 in a lull? Yes, I think so, primarily due to the license due to expire and Hunter's Troubles (may they be resolved satisfactorily and soon).

Traveller in general in a lull? I doubt it. MGT and Avenger Enterprises will bring about a number of rulebooks; this may not last as long as A True Traveller Fan (ATTF) would like, but it may bring in a few to several new fans.

Personally I like what they did with MGT for the most part. Yes, they didn't put in a few things they might have, and yes, there is a good bit of errata, but I intend to talk my parents into getting me one or two of their supplements for birthday presents.

 

[Odegra]

I think you're just finding any reason to complain about MGT.

First, $40 is about normal for RPGs nowadays. This isn't the 1970s anymore.

Second, just going by page count alone doesn't cut it. CT arguably has little in the way of explanation and elucidation. MGT has more of that. I'd rather have a book take more room to explain the rules more clearly than have it present them in the minimum space possible.

 

[tbeard1999]

It's like TNE all over again

Why do people not get that they can just ignore MGT and carry on playing whatever they want? Though I think it's disingenuous of tbeard and supplement4 to complain so much...

Would your "logic" also hold that it's disengenous of you to uncritically praise MGT so much? Pot, kettle, etc.. isn't it?

In any case, your reasoning would exculpate any game design, wouldn't it? No matter how horrible the game, couldn't you use the same reason to halt all critical comments?

they still perpetually complain about MGT even though the rules they complained most about were actually changed by Mongoose. And yet even though Mongoose listened and did something about it (arguably because of more reasoned and more calmly put arguments than they presented), why do they still seem to have a persecution complex about it?

You have apparently not been reading my posts. Or, you are intentionally misrepresenting their content.

I have explicitely declined to comment on the mechanics that were dropped (other than to praise Mongoose for doing so). I believe that I've been quite specific about my criticisms of MGT -- and FAR more specific than folks like you, who widely praise the game, yet seem unable to tell us specifically why it's so full of yummy goodness. All we seem to get are expansive (and utterly vague) pronouncements about how wonderful it is, combined with whining about those who have the gall to dislike the game.

Now understand, you are entitled to unconditionally love the game if you want. But you are *not* entitled to quash all negative commentary just because you happen to love the game. Nor are you entitled to much intellectual respect if you can't articulate why the game is wonderful and why its critics are so wrong.

I can do without the disparaging comments from them too. Just because I'm not marching in step behind them about MGT rules issues doesn't make me a "fanboy" (or the more petty/disparaging sounding "fangoose" that tbeard is fond of using).

Again, you either have not read my posts or are intentionally misrepresenting what I've said.

I did come up with "fangoose", but I seldom used it and haven't it in many months. I challenge you to produce a single instance of me using that term in the last 5 months or so. If you can't, I'm sure you'll withdraw the accusation.

And before you launch into another tirade about how unfair I am to MGT, consider this: You (and other MGT supporters) are usually the ones who impugn the motives of those who disagree with you. I only question your motives in response (or after you refuse to tell us why you like the game so much and why its critics are wrong).

And I have *never* made a complaint to the moderators about anyone. Can you say the same?

So who really has the "persecution complex", eh?

 

[GypsyComet]

How many books did you have to buy with CT to get all that though?

On a one or two LBB and one magazine issue per *quarter* release schedule, no less.

As for the JARS effect (aka the YATS Syndrome), we're a decade or more too late on that one. CT alone had three official published personal combat systems plus at least one hybrid and a fan-written addition or three.

"It's like TNE all over again."

No. Not even close. Ty and S4 *together* come nowhere near the "Turn it up to 11" venom that ruled the Traveller Mailing List in the early 90's and which left the online Traveller community an exhausted wreck in general. We're getting close to 20 years later, and the TNE related mailing lists *still* operate in relative isolation from the CT/MT fanbase. Try to discuss Virus in an open forum even now, and you will see how much of that hatred and venom is still there.

The grumbles over MGT are pretty minor by comparison. In the now-proverbial YATS/JARS environment of Traveller, little systemic quibbles are simply not worth the effort.

Traveller as a whole is a big toolbox of rules. Pick and choose the tools you use, put the rest back in the box, and recognize that the tools you use are going to be different from the tools someone else chooses. Face the reality that the toolbox cannot be locked to keep others out of it, and if you come to the box as a tool salesman, realize that you cannot empty the box of what is already in it.

 

[Spinward Scout]

How many books did you have to buy with CT to get all that though? Don't forget that MGT is supposed to be the core rules for SF gaming, not just for the OTU. So they're leaving the OTU-specific stuff for supplements, and keeping the main rulebook as generic as possible.

I had The Traveller Book and The Traveller Adventure. I didn't buy anything else for CT until the reprints came out.

If MGT is supposed to be the core rules for Mongoose SciFi gaming, maybe they should have called it something other than Traveller, like, say 'Mongoose's SciFi Gaming Core Rules'. And then had a supplement for Traveller. Again, they're not adding to the Traveller universe with this. I'm under the idea that I should just ignore it like a dysfunctional ex-girlfriend. You know: "Dude, you really don't want to play that."

 

[CosmicGamer]

And as noted elewhere, MGT has about the same number of pages as LBB1-7+Supplement 4 (counting 2 LBB pages as 1 letter/A4 page). So it's fair, I think, to note that MGT's coverage is significantly less than a comparable number of CT pages.

I think that a comparison of MGT to just the LBBs and not all the additional materials is more in order since the content and prices of additional MGT materials can not be compared at this time.

I have the BBB. "The Traveller Book" - A compilation of LBB1-3 and it is 159 pages. This book is approximately the same page size as the MGT's 181 page book.

I do not know how many pages are in LBB1 but I do own:
LBB2 48 pages
LBB3 also 48 pages
so for these 2 books (48+48)/2 = 48
that would mean book 1 is over 266 pages to be the same page count?
MGT 181 pages = LBB * 1/2 +48
I'm no math wiz , so correct me if I'm wrong.

To be fair, the cost of LBBs 1-7+Supplement 4 in 1981 would have been $10 for LBB1-3, +$6 for LBB4+7 + $5 for Supp 4 = $39.00. Adjusted for inflation, this would total $96.95.**

The receipt for my BBB is still in the box. $12.00 + Tax. The date is 9/10/85 Don't know if that info is of any use to you... other than maybe a comparison to this:?

IIRC, Megatraveller sold for about $20 in 1986.

I am only pointing out some things, I am not voicing opinion for or against MGT or any other version of Traveller - to each there own I say, and what is to be gained by knocking down someone else's version of fun?

 

[casquilho]

Boy did this topic go off track a little.

However, it does go to show there is still a few folks who are passionate about Traveller (in one edition or another).

Daniel

 

[CosmicGamer]

If MGT is supposed to be the core rules for Mongoose SciFi gaming, maybe they should have called it something other than Traveller, like, say 'Mongoose's SciFi Gaming Core Rules'. And then had a supplement for Traveller.

I know where you are coming from on this but don't feel as strongly as you about it.
- Personaly, if the Traveller name was not on this product I would have never even known it existed. I've been away from Die and paper RPGs for a long time and had never even heard of Mongoose.
- The Traveller name is recognized and has a certain market value for sales.

An additional comment. I wouldn't mind if mongoose came out with supplements for each of the different Travelller time periods; heck they could come out with a new one - isn't that what most of the different versions of Traveller did?

Again, they're not adding to the Traveller universe with this.

I don't know if your right or wrong but I disagree. Mongoose could bring new players to the game which I believe is a good thing.

The Elitist may disagree and want to keep it a good OLD boys club. Their bickering and comments like the following will certainly not help add to the Traveller universe:

I'm under the idea that I should just ignore it like a dysfunctional ex-girlfriend. You know: "Dude, you really don't want to play that."

I am not calling you an Elitist or old, or a boy. Is it your right to voice your opinions - absolutely. It is just my opinion right or wrong that your comment is more harmful to the Traveller universe than a fresh Traveller release.

Is all the bickering and bad mouthing of any version of Traveller adding to the Traveller universe?

 

[Odegra]

Would your "logic" also hold that it's disengenous of you to uncritically praise MGT so much? Pot, kettle, etc.. isn't it?

No, because I don't do that. But in your worldview, it seems that anyone who doesn't agree with your criticisms of MGT or who just plain tells you to stop going on about it must be a "fanboy" who is "uncritically praising MGT".

I did come up with "fangoose", but I seldom used it and haven't it in many months. I challenge you to produce a single instance of me using that term in the last 5 months or so. If you can't, I'm sure you'll withdraw the accusation.

No I won't, because you were using it and you came up with it. And your intent was to use it in a spiteful way. And frankly you just seem to be using "fanboy" in a similarly disparaging way now.

And before you launch into another tirade about how unfair I am to MGT, consider this: You (and other MGT supporters) are usually the ones who impugn the motives of those who disagree with you. I only question your motives in response (or after you refuse to tell us why you like the game so much and why its critics are wrong).

So who really has the "persecution complex", eh?

I think this paragraph says it all. You apparently are so bitter and paranoid about it all that you think anyone who disagrees with you must be your enemy. Maybe that's not your intention but you sure come across that way - that's why your motives are questionable because it seems that you are just trying to get people to "see the light" (i.e. validate your complaints) and if they don't then they must be "on the other side". You just don't get the fact that your concerns really are not that important for a lot of people.

And like I said, I am by no means an "MGT supporter". I think it's a decent version of the game but I'm not the frothing fanboy that you paint me as. But whenever anyone criticises your position you wheel out the "everyone's trying to silence me" excuse.

 

[Spinward Scout]

- Personaly, if the Traveller name was not on this product I would have never even known it existed. I've been away from Die and paper RPGs for a long time and had never even heard of Mongoose.
- The Traveller name is recognized and has a certain market value for sales.

My point exactly - it's not about Traveller, it's about sales. At least MT and TNE had a new setting to play in. Otherwise, it's JARS (Just Another Rules System).

Is all the bickering and bad mouthing of any version of Traveller adding to the Traveller universe?

Point taken.

 

[tbeard1999]

I think that a comparison of MGT to just the LBBs and not all the additional materials is more in order since the content and prices of additional MGT materials can not be compared at this time.

...

I'm no math wiz , so correct me if I'm wrong.

There's some slack in the comparisons, so let me explicitely identify the basis for my statements.

The raw page counts for the LBBs are as follows:

1,2,3: 48 pages
4, 5: 52 pages
6: 56 pages
7: 47 pages
S4 Chargen Section: 17

Total: 384 pages. 2 LBB pages equal a letter/A4 sized page, for an equivalent of 168 pages. And due to inconsistencies regarding whether titles, tables of content and colophons are counted as pages, the LBB count should be reduced by a net of -9 pages. So the actual gaming content of the above material is ~172.5 pages (I do count table of contents). A bit less, if you consider the fact that information was often repeated (skill descriptions especially) in later LBBs.

(I deleted Book 8 and replaced with part of Supp 4 because I felt that robots did not deserve a full LBB treatment; I'd have preferred the contents of Supp 4 and/or a vehicle design and combat system).

The Traveller Book has 159 pages, but 9 of them are blank pages, title pages, colophon or advertising. This leaves ~150 pages of gaming content. Deleting the pages dedicated to adventures, there are 116 pages of gaming content. 4 pages cover GDW's conception of how Traveller adventures should be run. Good stuff, though I suspect it plows the same ground as Book 0 and the free "Understanding Traveller" folio. About 30 pages are "chart" pages that group all charts for an activity (say Starship Design) onto a couple of pages and well worth the effort to photocopy and bind separately (or use the Starter Traveller chart book). About a half dozen of these are wasteful of space (for some reason, they printed subsector grids and other forms one per page, rather than 2 per page). Anyhow, all this is, IMHO, gaming material.

Don't have my copy of MGT, so let's go with ~190 pages.

No matter how you slice it, MGT covers less ground than a comparable number of pages of LBBs or the Traveller Book. The Traveller Book covers roughly the same ground as LBB1-3 in about 116 pages (compared with 72 equivalent pages in LBB1-3). However, about 30 pages are "chart pages" and there's at least 4 pages of new material, so the actual amount of new material (or expanded definitions/clarifications) is fairly low, at least on a "per page" basis. Typographically, the LBBs use the same typeface, size and leading as The Traveller Book, so I'd expect roughly the same word density per page (again, counting 2 LBB pages as 1 Traveller Book/MGT page).

But as noted, MGT doesn't really cost that much more than LBB1-3 in real dollars ($40 vs ~$34 for LBB1-3). So the gamer pays about the same for comparable, but frothier coverage.

The model changes, however, if you include the cost of future MGT supplements. Or, if you compare MGT to (say) Megatraveller. Though to be fair, MT should probably have 20-30 pages added to account for errata

BTW, this points out the fact that game rules cost about the same in real dollars (pounds, etc.) as they did in the Good Old Days. However, the physical quality has markedly improved (hardbacks are the norm, when only AD&D used them in 1980, for instance) and the games have 2-3 times the number of pages. Unfortunately, the primary effect of doubling the page count seems to be to increase the bullsh*t proportionally.

The receipt for my BBB is still in the box. $12.00 + Tax. The date is 9/10/85 Don't know if that info is of any use to you... other than maybe a comparison to this:?

Gives us another data point. Adjusted for inflation, the basket of CT LBBs above cost (in 2007 dollars):

$138.72 in 1978
$101.92 in 1981
$80.83 in 1985

And you're right; LBB1-3 cost $12 from 1978 on (I have a review in The Dragon in late 1977 that gives the price as $12). As noted, it was a pricey game. (By comparison, the AD&D hardback books cost $10@ for the PHB and MM and $12 for the DMG in 1978 and in 1981, or about $108.32 (1978) or $79.55 (1981) in today's money, and they had about 500 pages of gaming material).

 

[tbeard1999]

Would your "logic" also hold that it's disengenous of you to uncritically praise MGT so much? Pot, kettle, etc.. isn't it?

No, because I don't do that. But in your worldview, it seems that anyone who doesn't agree with your criticisms of MGT or who just plain tells you to stop going on about it must be a "fanboy" who is "uncritically praising MGT".

Okay, let's assume that you are not uncritically praising MGT. Would you agree that someone who uncritically praises a game is just as silly as someone who uncritically criticizes it?

I challenge you to produce a single instance of me using <fangoose> in the last 5 months or so. If you can't, I'm sure you'll withdraw the accusation.

No I won't, because you were using it and you came up with it. And your intent was to use it in a spiteful way. And frankly you just seem to be using "fanboy" in a similarly disparaging way now.

You really should actually read my posts. I used the term "fanboy" in an example....and I referred to the critics as "MGT Haters" (maybe "hateboy" is a better term). It's hard to see how I favored one side or the other in that example. I also reduced both arguments to simplistic parodies (i.e. "I hate the game"/"I love the game").

So I think you're really stretching to be offended here.

I'd also note that I generally do not use the term "fanboy". I challenge you to produce examples of me dismissing somone as a "fanboy" (except in retaliation).

And candidly, I thought "Fangoose" was somewhat clever (still do, as a matter of fact). I certainly could have come up with a far more, uh, blunt East Texas colloquial English term for them...

But in any case, it seems silly to me to whine about a term I coined long ago and that I haven't used since...

And before you launch into another tirade about how unfair I am to MGT, consider this: You (and other MGT supporters) are usually the ones who impugn the motives of those who disagree with you. I only question your motives in response (or after you refuse to tell us why you like the game so much and why its critics are wrong).

So who really has the "persecution complex", eh?

I think this paragraph says it all. You apparently are so bitter and paranoid about it all that you think anyone who disagrees with you must be your enemy.

<shrug>

I note that you did not dispute my factual assertions -- and indeed, your response supports my contention that you are projecting...

Maybe that's not your intention but you sure come across that way - that's why your motives are questionable because it seems that you are just trying to get people to "see the light" (i.e. validate your complaints) and if they don't then they must be "on the other side". You just don't get the fact that your concerns really are not that important for a lot of people.

Well, you sure do spend a lot of energy on unimportant matters.

But then, I guess that's why these kinds of discussions can get so bitter -- the stakes are so low (to paraphrase Kissinger).

And like I said, I am by no means an "MGT supporter". I think it's a decent version of the game but I'm not the frothing fanboy that you paint me as. But whenever anyone criticises your position you wheel out the "everyone's trying to silence me" excuse.

Again, you are misrepresenting my statements. I think that the record is pretty conclusive that I am willing to defend my positions against all comers. Now I'll admit that I think that it's extremely cowardly to try to censor someone in lieu of rebutting their arguments. But I think I've been FAR more specific in my arguments that folks like you.

 

[atpollard]

Post Deleted.
Sorry, I fell behind in the argument.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Post Deleted.
Sorry, I fell behind in the argument.

I'm sorry - I just find that funny. Never saw anyone post that before.

:rofl:

 

[tbeard1999]

Mongoose could bring new players to the game which I believe is a good thing.

I agree, with the caveat that the rules need to be good enough to persuade players to play it. (FWIW, I'm inclined to hold that the rules are adequate to the task, though I doubt that too many folks will be blown away by the rules.)

It's a shame, though, that MGT isn't better than it is. Love it or hate it, it's probably the last major version of Traveller that will be widely available.

The Elitist may disagree and want to keep it a good OLD boys club.

Even assuming such a motive exists and is common among MGT critics, their motives are irrelevant if their criticisms are valid, right?

And since I find that charges of "elitism" are often used to dispose of arguments that the speaker is unable to rebut with facts or reason, I find them to be pretty lame...

Their bickering and comments like the following will certainly not help add to the Traveller universe:
I am not calling you an Elitist or old, or a boy. Is it your right to voice your opinions - absolutely. It is just my opinion right or wrong that your comment is more harmful to the Traveller universe than a fresh Traveller release.

Well, until Mongoose puts me on the payroll, I feel no responsibility to carry water for MGT. I am, however, available for a surprisingly low rate if Mongoose is interested

And I practice what I preach. The main forum for my wargame rules has >500 members. Most like the game, but we've had a number of vocal critics over the years. I have *never* condemned any critic of the game for criticisms made. Nor would I stand for a fan of my rules trying to silence critics because "they just hate the game". As I designer, I am supremely interested in what folks dislike about my rules.

So I have addressed critics, rebutted their criticisms where possible, admitted their accuracy where appropriate, and in general, disclosed *why* the rules were written the way they were, etc. And I especially avoid letting others fight my battles for me. As the designer, I feel a strong obligation to disclose to the players why I designed the rules as I did. So it's my job to defend them, not someone else's.

As a result, my rules have been *improved*, not weakened. And its successor will benefit handsomely from candid criticism. So my own experience dissuades me from concluding that criticism somehow hurts a game.

Well, let me amend that. In my experience, candid criticism can improve a solid game. But it may well hurt a poorly designed game...

I'd add that I am quick to praise Mongoose for admitting and correcting errors. So if I am a mindless MGT-hater, I'm not very good at it...

Is all the bickering and bad mouthing of any version of Traveller adding to the Traveller universe?

You are asking this question of both fans and critics of the game, right? In my experience, fans are at least as likely to get pissy and acrimonious as critics are.

Here's my problem. If you focus entirely on "bickering", you enable unsrupulous folks to censor speech they disagree with. All they have to do is get pissy and <poof>, the debate is ended. They have successfully ended an argument without having to do anything more than act like a two year old.

This happened way too often in the MGT forums, IMHO, and I'd hate to see it happen here.

And the worse thing is that the game suffers when criticism is peremptorially censored in this way.

 

[Border Reiver]

Boy did this topic go off track a little.

However, it does go to show there is still a few folks who are passionate about Traveller (in one edition or another).

Daniel

GO MEGATRAVELLER!

 

[VargrIntellectual]

I would like to see more fans of Traveller. From one point of view, the fact that a new set of rules is being released means that new Trav fans could be recruited by this. I'm not convinced that this is true, but it's a reasonable position.

I'm working on putting together a new CT (LBB) game right now. Probably most of the players (if it comes together) will never have played Traveller at all. Which to me would be the optimal form of recruitment.

My problem with MungTrav is just that it's from Mungoose. I don't have anything against those guys personally, not even that I feel somewhat ripped off by some of their stuff in the past because to buy or not to buy was my decision. They seem like they're into Open Gaming which suggests that they're good fellows. In fact, other considerations aside I expect they'd be fine folks to have a pint with. But that's not really the issue, is it?

The issue for me is that the new Traveller rules, which do represent a change to get new blood into the game, are Munged. I'm sorry but these fellows just can't seem to turn out a quality product. And to have them give the treatment to Traveller, of all games! It's as if they announced a remake of Blade Runner written & directed by and starring Carrot Top. Afterwards people would raise their eyebrows if you said that you were into Blade Runner.

It'd be great if there was a Renaissance of Traveller sparked by MungTrav. It would be great if Trav became one of the top 5 role playing games on the market and everybody at Mungoose became millionaires. That would be a great time to be a Traveller player. But in the absence of a substrate of quality, I think this will ultimately turn out to be another Mungoose sideshow and another set of Traveller rules that flops. How many more flops can Traveller players withstand?

Of course, Marc Miller has done the community a huge favor with his reprints. CT is still in print. So on that front, we're still in good shape.

 

[VargrIntellectual]

GO MEGATRAVELLER!

And take TNE with you!