Making SOC Count

[creativehum]

You need fool proof identification for it to work.

In an interstellar polity where communications and verification is speed of travel.

Do you mean nobility in general?

 

[welsh]

You need fool proof identification for it to work.

For what to work?

 

[Condottiere]

Social standing, of course.

Because if you base social interaction, networking and access on that, you need some way for the other party to be very sure of who you are.

Social standing isn't charisma, charisma is a tangible effect.

Social standing is a visitor's card.

 

[kilemall]

Social standing, of course.

Because if you base social interaction, networking and access on that, you need some way for the other party to be very sure of who you are.

Social standing isn't charisma, charisma is a tangible effect.

Social standing is a visitor's card.

I would agree that as the game and rules have played it up to now, it's NOT Charisma, but standing. Doesn't have to be the way I am suggesting here, just an interesting jar to our 'normal' frames of reference.

I would disagree that there has to be a Social Registry or the like to make sure the highbred poodles are who they say they are. Behavior, mannerisms, attitude and bearing would all be more convincing calling cards then a database entry.

 

[rhialto]

What game effects ought SOC to have?

I've mentioned some. High SOC ought to mean fewer police hassles, greater ease in navigating bureaucracies, easier dealings with the bank, and so on. You'll have an easier time renting an ATV if you "look reliable."

Low SOC brings the opposite. But it can't be all bad. There are plenty of other activities where high SOC hurts characters -- anything where it helps to be streetwise, any transaction that goes on under the table, etc.

(Here I note that the game takes tasks where an attribute might have applied, and creates a specific skill, Streetwise, to deal with them.)

The most difficult aspect to apply, though, is the assumption that high SOC indicates some buy-in to that Noble culture, and to its notions of honour. The high SOC character can do something illegal, but only in the service of some Noble interest, and not purely for himself ... but of course, the player behind that character may have other views entirely.

The only real way to make that work is to apply shame and disgrace with heavy-handed glee. So your SOC-4 character may have trouble checking into the hotel -- ID checks, snobby clerks, credit checks, etc. -- while the high-SOC character breezes through. But when our high-SOC man is recognized as that disgraced gentleman involved in the Whatsit Affair, he'll face consequences worse than ID checks and snobbery: the blackball.

I agree with the positive effects of high SOC you've described above (especially in light of how SOC affects and is affected by Commission and Promotion in chargen, even though we've left if behind in the discussion), but is the "shame and disgrace" just a story element, or a mechanical effect (e.g., blackball = -1 SOC, much as the Other career can "personally develop" with -1 SOC)?

And with respect to "There are plenty of other activities where high SOC hurts characters -- anything where it helps to be streetwise, any transaction that goes on under the table, etc." are you referencing something in the rules? I don't recall any other cases where a high characteristic penalizes a character (but am curious, since I'm finding I have a lot to unlearn or learn again about CT).

 

[creativehum]

Social standing, of course.

Because if you base social interaction, networking and access on that, you need some way for the other party to be very sure of who you are.

I'm not saying this will satisfy you. But I'm very interested in your response.

For my setting assumptions about Social Standing, I'm assuming (as noted before) that we're dealing with full-bore, reactionary family driven nobility. House are established because the ties between blood keep things stable when communication is slow. (Dune, et al.)

(I understand a lot of people don't buy into this as a setting element for whatever reason. For me, I watch how people behave, how decisions are made, how cultures bend to needs and whims, and I'm like, "Yeah, for fictional interstellar setting of many types I could see this making sense." So it works for me.)

I assume the nobility takes all this serious. When a child is born all sorts of blood samples, genetic records, eye-ID, fingerprints and so on are taken and confirmed. A registry is built that is updated and sent out throughout all the worlds ruled by the Imperium. (After all, news of a new heir is a big deal anyway. But ID will be part of the package.) It is the high tech equivalent of a noble registry. If someone needs to be confirmed far from home, samples are taken and checked against the registry.

Significantly, since DNA samples are drawn from family trees, odds are they will remain close, allowing even tighter confirmation against anyone not from the royal families.

The following things are true:

• The records could be stolen during transport or storage.
• The records can be altered during transport or in storage.
• The records can be examined during transport or storage.

The fact that the registry is regularly update will, over time, catch any changes in records as they are compared.

But more importantly, awesome. If there are shenanigans involving people trying to pose as noble, it is adventure material.

Someone might try to track down someone close enough to the DNA records and more. Again, I say awesome to this.

But for me, the point is, the Noble Registry, updated over time, means the materials needed for confirmation are already present to be compared against any individual.

Finally, yes. The lag in communication can be taken advantage of in many ways not yet discussed in this post. (A noble may die, his body taken, forgeries of genetic material made in an effort to create a false ID for some sort of scam)...

And again, all I can say is excellent. One of the key reasons for the lag in communication between systems in original Traveller is to create gaps in the law, news, ID, and more.

The system has flaws built into it. All systems have flaws built into them. I don't expect the future of the implied Traveller setting to be more efficient than today. And today is as much of a mess in many ways as the past... just in new ways. That's my view, at least.

 

[creativehum]

And with respect to "There are plenty of other activities where high SOC hurts characters -- anything where it helps to be streetwise, any transaction that goes on under the table, etc." are you referencing something in the rules? I don't recall any other cases where a high characteristic penalizes a character (but am curious, since I'm finding I have a lot to unlearn or learn again about CT).

In any given situation the Referee can (and should) apply DMs as appropriate.

The rules of CT (in my reading at least) are not a complete set of rules but an instruction book as to how apply DMs and Throws as seems appropriate. The book is full of illustrations of DMs in different circumstances. By analogy, these illustrations reveal analogies to be applied in countless ways not explicitly defined in the rules.

 

[Condottiere]

This is sort of anecdotal real life.

The descendants of German nobility try to network extensively amongst themselves, and have published books keeping track of marriages and lines of descent.

The German bourgeoisie can get fooled by false noble birth claims.

My feeling is that's harder to do in Britain, because the aristocracy still exists as a public institution, with some real political pull.

As for Traveller character generation, the institutions that characters join to build up their portfolios of skills, know exactly who they are, which is why social standing is a valid means to adjust dice rolls or gain access to certain facilities.

It's once you're retired, and outside of your home system, this becomes an issue.

 

[creativehum]

It's once you're retired, and outside of your home system, this becomes an issue.

For me, in many different applications across many different kinds of instances, the fact that there is an issues is a feature.

 

[welsh]

Social standing, of course.

Because if you base social interaction, networking and access on that, you need some way for the other party to be very sure of who you are.

I disagree. As discussed above, there are all kinds of external markers of social standing. This is in play in our society, one which prides itself on being egalitarian. In a society that draws sharp class distinctions, these things will be that much more important.

People don't need to be sure of who you are, in a personal identity sense. They need only be aware of what you are, in the sense of class -- a sense that translates rapidly and subconsciously into "He seems a reliable sort," or "That guy looks shifty," or "Not another of these foppish nitwits."

Now, you can fake it. That's a roleplaying possibility. (Think of the movie Catch Me If You Can.) But this isn't as easy as you think: you'd have to master accents, mannerisms, dialect, and so forth, and you'd have to dress appropriately, and you might also have personal appearance to consider.

I'm not talking about presenting yourself and saying, "I'm so-and-so, of the Newport so-and-sos" -- although among Nobles this might well be enough. (There are very few of them.) I'm just saying how you get treated in a class-conscious society has a lot to do with class.

 

[creativehum]

I want to add that my idea about the registry is only applied when it matters.

In most situations someone as a higher class will have no importance or significant effect. Other times a deception of class will matter -- and the deception risks discovery merely by behavior.

 

[Condottiere]

How many people exist in the Imperium? How many different languages, accents, fashions co-exist?

All things being equal, most people will go with the default assumption that everyone else is middle class, depending on how they act and dress, upper, middle or lower.

Then you get to social standing nine, which has an actual plus one modifier. How many people qualify for that, and how sure are you that's their actual status?

 

[welsh]

How many people exist in the Imperium? How many different languages, accents, fashions co-exist?

Many, but that doesn't erase the culture of the empire.

I refer you to my earlier remarks re the evolution of manners. I'd also point out that the high population, high tech worlds -- those places most likely to have their own fashions, etc., and to be the places people think are just the coolest worlds around -- are the seats of power.

Consider the British Empire as a model. The ruling class is recognizable wherever it travels. The middle class in the colonies apes its behavior, regardless of what language they speak, and regardless of local customs. They mix their local culture with the culture of empire and move between the two. How you speak and behave and your outward trappings of class matter. Fifty years after independence, you can still see this in former colonies.

 

[rhialto]

In any given situation the Referee can (and should) apply DMs as appropriate.

The rules of CT (in my reading at least) are not a complete set of rules but an instruction book as to how apply DMs and Throws as seems appropriate. The book is full of illustrations of DMs in different circumstances. By analogy, these illustrations reveal analogies to be applied in countless ways not explicitly defined in the rules.

Yes, I understand and agree: I was just asking if there was any precedent (RAW, however broadly) for any of the other characteristics providing a penalty for being above the norm.

 

[creativehum]

How many people qualify for that, and how sure are you that's their actual status?

I offered some thoughts on that. I'd love to hear your response.

 

[flykiller]

(Yes, I observed the social norm of searching before posting....)

and we hold you in esteem for having done so.

 

[flykiller]

It is the high tech equivalent of a noble registry.

for nobles this seems doable. for 2-12 (non-noble imtu) this seems cumbersome.

 

[creativehum]

for nobles this seems doable. for 2-12 (non-noble imtu) this seems cumbersome.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I suggested what you're suggesting.
But in any case, ell is well and good. I never would suggest doing it for everyone.
Hence the name the term "noble registry."

 

[Condottiere]

I'm not saying this will satisfy you. But I'm very interested in your response.

For my setting assumptions about Social Standing, I'm assuming (as noted before) that we're dealing with full-bore, reactionary family driven nobility. House are established because the ties between blood keep things stable when communication is slow. (Dune, et al.)

Dune is inherently feudal; Navigation is shown to be instantaneous, though I don't recall shipping schedules mentioned.

Lineages are jealously guarded, and at least by the Bene Gesserit, meticulously researched and monitored.

It's implied the nobility knows each other, and are jockeying for power.

(I understand a lot of people don't buy into this as a setting element for whatever reason. For me, I watch how people behave, how decisions are made, how cultures bend to needs and whims, and I'm like, "Yeah, for fictional interstellar setting of many types I could see this making sense." So it works for me.)

I assume the nobility takes all this serious. When a child is born all sorts of blood samples, genetic records, eye-ID, fingerprints and so on are taken and confirmed. A registry is built that is updated and sent out throughout all the worlds ruled by the Imperium. (After all, news of a new heir is a big deal anyway. But ID will be part of the package.) It is the high tech equivalent of a noble registry. If someone needs to be confirmed far from home, samples are taken and checked against the registry.

Significantly, since DNA samples are drawn from family trees, odds are they will remain close, allowing even tighter confirmation against anyone not from the royal families.

The following things are true:

• The records could be stolen during transport or storage.
• The records can be altered during transport or in storage.
• The records can be examined during transport or storage.

The fact that the registry is regularly update will, over time, catch any changes in records as they are compared.

Keeping a database of the aristocracy is easier than the teeming masses; intelligence agencies certainly want to know all about local power brokers, to asses any threats they represent to the established order.

They are under no obligation to release this data to financial institutions or hotels, who might be wandering if it's worth their while to accommodate some stranger with a posh accent, asking for credit or a suite without accreditation.

In any event, updating the records still go at the speed of travel.

But more importantly, awesome. If there are shenanigans involving people trying to pose as noble, it is adventure material.

Someone might try to track down someone close enough to the DNA records and more. Again, I say awesome to this.

But for me, the point is, the Noble Registry, updated over time, means the materials needed for confirmation are already present to be compared against any individual.

Finally, yes. The lag in communication can be taken advantage of in many ways not yet discussed in this post. (A noble may die, his body taken, forgeries of genetic material made in an effort to create a false ID for some sort of scam)...

And again, all I can say is excellent. One of the key reasons for the lag in communication between systems in original Traveller is to create gaps in the law, news, ID, and more.

The system has flaws built into it. All systems have flaws built into them. I don't expect the future of the implied Traveller setting to be more efficient than today. And today is as much of a mess in many ways as the past... just in new ways. That's my view, at least.

Let's assume that most Traveller cityslickers aren't naive enough to accept on face value any requests that affect their financial wellbeing, just because someone has an impressive wardrobe or posh accent; they might do so if they're surprised by such requests, before they rationally examine it.

By now, most people should be aware of the modern variants of the Spanish prisoner scam, or any number of royal scions from Africa.

 

[creativehum]

Let's assume that most Traveller cityslickers aren't naive enough to accept on face value any requests that affect their financial wellbeing, just because someone has an impressive wardrobe or posh accent; they might do so if they're surprised by such requests, before they rationally examine it.

By now, most people should be aware of the modern variants of the Spanish prisoner scam, or any number of royal scions from Africa.

I agree.

I actually don't know what we're discussing anymore. But I suspect you think there is still no way to verify nobility?

My assumption was the registry was for nobility alone. For matters in which some things really mattered. I never imagined anyone thinking they could just show up with ribbons on their chest and demand Cr1000 from some guy on the street because he was a noble.

We might all be talking past each other at this point.

As always, I am of the opinion that without concrete examples of play in the context of actual RPG circumstances it is easy for any conversation like this to become a swamp of conjecture, as each person as their own imagined idea of what the abstract concepts are implying for play.