Making SOC Count

[Leitz]

nope. not how it works.

I see it work on a day to day basis. Often high or low Soc will form sub-cultures and people will display the trappings and language of their cultural group. Soc A will share rounds of golf and Soc 2 will share a blunt.

There seems to be good story in the person undergoing a transition either way.

 

[flykiller]

Soc 2 will share a blunt.

yeah, I can see prince henry doing that ....

 

[creativehum]

probably be best to ditch social standing and nobility and just go with charisma and corporate rank.

uh... no.
But you go ahead.

 

[flykiller]

probably be best to ditch social standing and nobility and just go with charisma and corporate rank.

uh... no. But you go ahead.

oh I won't. but if social standing is going to be seen as charisma, then it might as well be called that. I mean, why not? eliminate a lot of confusion.

 

[welsh]

I don't believe anyone is conflating social standing and charisma.

Charisma is a personal quality independent of class. And considering how the Vargr substitute charisma for SOC highlights the importance of SOC. This is what makes the Imperium different from others -- from the Vargr, from the Zhodani, etc.

It's also what makes the Imperium different from the society we know.

 

[flykiller]

I don't believe anyone is conflating social standing and charisma.

"The further the SOC of the Character is from the SES of the setting, the more clearly he will stand out as someone who does not quite fit in.
...
3) SOC is the primary modifying stat for reaction rolls in a social setting.
...
Instead of SOC being an analog of social CLASS, it could measure the socialization ability of the character
...
High SOC ought to mean fewer police hassles, greater ease in navigating bureaucracies, easier dealings with the bank, and so on. You'll have an easier time renting an ATV if you "look reliable."
...
indicates more an ability to navigate the officer's club or embassy social currents then social rank.
...
I'd make the Reaction roll
...
People don't need to be sure of who you are, in a personal identity sense. They need only be aware of what you are, in the sense of class -- a sense that translates rapidly and subconsciously into "He seems a reliable sort," or "That guy looks shifty," or "Not another of these foppish nitwits."
...
It's a melange of differing aspects of social interaction
...
it is how people who are not familiar with the character might react
...
People are acutely conscious of it. Your accent, the way you dress, your physical mannerisms, your manners: they are noted."

It's also what makes the Imperium different from the society we know.

very different. different enough that lots of players see "social standing" and think "charisma". for game rule purposes it might be better just to chuck social standing and just call it charisma.

 

[creativehum]

"The further the SOC of the Character is from the SES of the setting, the more clearly he will stand out as someone who does not quite fit in.
...
3) SOC is the primary modifying stat for reaction rolls in a social setting.
...
Instead of SOC being an analog of social CLASS, it could measure the socialization ability of the character
...
High SOC ought to mean fewer police hassles, greater ease in navigating bureaucracies, easier dealings with the bank, and so on. You'll have an easier time renting an ATV if you "look reliable."
...
indicates more an ability to navigate the officer's club or embassy social currents then social rank.
...
I'd make the Reaction roll
...
People don't need to be sure of who you are, in a personal identity sense. They need only be aware of what you are, in the sense of class -- a sense that translates rapidly and subconsciously into "He seems a reliable sort," or "That guy looks shifty," or "Not another of these foppish nitwits."
...
It's a melange of differing aspects of social interaction
...
it is how people who are not familiar with the character might react
...
People are acutely conscious of it. Your accent, the way you dress, your physical mannerisms, your manners: they are noted."

I suspect this is to much to ask of you, but could you provide links or sources for quotes? I have no idea what you are referring to.

Rules? A quote from someone posting their theory somewhere on this thread? I have no idea, and context would not only be helpful but gracious.

As for the definition of SOC, I didn't recognize what you just posted. I thought, "Is that what it says in Book 1?" So I checked.

"Social Standing notes the class and level of society which the character (and his or her family) come."
-- Traveller Book 1; Starter Traveller; The Traveller Book*

What SOC is is right there. Whether or not that's what people want it to be or see anything interesting about what it is is something else entirely.

The definition is clear. But more than that, I find it awesome and inspiring. (I understand this is personal tasted.) It offers inspiring a social structure for a setting, as well as rich roleplaying possibilities. Moreover it is soil for conflicts between forces within the setting, between characters. Such a quality within the rules and setting also provides a source adventures -- both as part of great conflicts within the setting but on the fly, unexcited turns.


* MetaTraveller has the same description for Social Standing, though I believe it has rules that further define and apply SOC. In Basic Traveller SOC is never defined further than that original definition. It is up to the Referee and Players to apply the definition in interesting and engaging ways through play.

 

[flykiller]

could you provide links or sources for quotes?

this thread.

The definition is clear.

certainly clear enough. but a lot of people - seems to me a majority - seem to see it as "charisma". so might as well call it that.

 

[kilemall]

I don't believe anyone is conflating social standing and charisma.

Charisma is a personal quality independent of class. And considering how the Vargr substitute charisma for SOC highlights the importance of SOC. This is what makes the Imperium different from others -- from the Vargr, from the Zhodani, etc.

It's also what makes the Imperium different from the society we know.

I certainly don't in my default IMTU ruling, and I don't think most people are. Far as I know, I'm the only one that suggested an alternate something like it, and more as a characteristic ability in tune with INT and EDU as character 'doing' attributes.

Not sold on using it that way as there is just as much play value getting a sense of a character's background and likely life attitudes.

And it doesn't have to played as charisma/charming- can just as easily be ruthless and using people's weaknesses as going the 'likable/adored' route.

 

[Spartan159]

I know I'm just asking for it, but... I've always thought there should have been a Charisma stat regardless of Social Standing. Then again I've seen that idea waved away as role playing. :toast:

 

[creativehum]

I don't see anyone defining it as charisma.

I'll only speak of it as found in Classic Traveller, as I understand it.

SOC is a fact about a character. It isn't something a character does to other people.

So much of SOC is based on personal perception of the person observing or interacting with the character in question.

In some circumstances a high SOC will be perceived by someone as bestowing charisma. In other cases, a high SOC will engender rage, mark the character as a target, or cause jealously.

In some circumstances someone looking at a character of lower SOC will foster a sense of entitlement or abuse toward the lower SOC character, in other cases it might engender pity, condescension, indifference.

I have seen no one on this thread equate SOC with charisma. I have seen them state that someone who meets a character of higher SOC will be treated as if having charisma. But that is a gift bestowed on the person who values high social status in this way.

The notion that SOC should be something someone does to someone else -- while understandable in the context of 35 years of game design -- is I think a mistake in this case. I think SOC is better served as a transactional quality with variable inputs and results based on the specific circumstances at hand.

 

[atpollard]

oh I won't. but if social standing is going to be seen as charisma, then it might as well be called that. I mean, why not? eliminate a lot of confusion.

A tall pasty faced college professor in his conservative well tailored suit is walking down the street in Boston near the Ivy League college campus. Doctor Brown is well known for his habit of dressing down junior faculty and his narrow minded adherence to his antiquated dogma on literary history. He is universally disliked and in no way charismatic.

Pigvomit is an up and comer on the local punk rock scene with a cultish local following and a silver tongue for talking his way into a party or out of trouble. He wears outlandish shredded clothes that highlight his body piercings and obscene tattoos.

A window in a store on the street is broken and a LEO patrol car arrives at the scene. Will they honestly conflate charisma with social status between the two individuals on the block or treat them with equal suspicion and caution?

 

[welsh]

very different. different enough that lots of players see "social standing" and think "charisma".

None of the things you quote imply charisma.

atpollard makes the point succinctly.

 

[kilemall]

The notion that SOC should be something someone does to someone else -- while understandable in the context of 35 years of game design -- is I think a mistake in this case. I think SOC is better served as a transactional quality with variable inputs and results based on the specific circumstances at hand.

Er.

With the EQ variant I am suggesting, one is not doing something to others, they have more or less knowledge and innate ability in interacting with people.

Which could be used for liking, but also could be used for fear, sales, manipulation and/or deception.

That's worthy of a characteristic measurement.

 

[welsh]

I have seen them state that someone who meets a character of higher SOC will be treated as if having charisma. But that is a gift bestowed on the person who values high social status in this way.

Precisely: social standing may work in certain ways in certain situations as a function of social norms. It is beneficial where social standing is valued, and may be negative where it is not.

The idea that high social standing may bring deference is hardly controversial. And it's not in any way related to personal charisma.

 

[atpollard]

On the other hand, 'Oliver Twist' by Charles Dickens suggests that SOC is more innate and with SOC standing comes an innate standard of behavior ... the clothes may be disguised, but the SOC will seek its level. Some naturally rising to the top and others naturally being pulled down by their innate base nature.

nope. not how it works.

Actually, in Classic Traveller that is EXACTLY how it works. Some join the Navy and through fortuosity rise in Social Status through Service and as a result of Mustering out and may even join the ranks of the Imperial Nobility.

In contrast, some individuals unsuitable for any respectable career are forced into the "Other" where they fall in Social Status from the position they were born into.

Both exactly as Dickens said one might.

 

[kilemall]

A tall pasty faced college professor in his conservative well tailored suit is walking down the street in Boston near the Ivy League college campus. Doctor Brown is well known for his habit of dressing down junior faculty and his narrow minded adherence to his antiquated dogma on literary history. He is universally disliked and in no way charismatic.

Pigvomit is an up and comer on the local punk rock scene with a cultish local following and a silver tongue for talking his way into a party or out of trouble. He wears outlandish shredded clothes that highlight his body piercings and obscene tattoos.

A window in a store on the street is broken and a LEO patrol car arrives at the scene. Will they honestly conflate charisma with social status between the two individuals on the block or treat them with equal suspicion and caution?

In traditional SOC Doc Brown gets a 9-10 and likely gets a pass on LL harassment. Pigvomit probably has 4-5 and gets special attention.

EQ SOC, the SOC values are reversed, Doc Brown acts like an ass to the cop and gets special attention, Pigvomit gets a warning and told to get out if he gets to talk- or a trip to jail if there is no time for him to work his magic.

Which approach makes for a better game? I don't really see a downer to either approach, it would be more a matter of what your players would prefer IMO.

 

[creativehum]

Er.

With the EQ variant I am suggesting, one is not doing something to others, they have more or less knowledge and innate ability in interacting with people.

Which could be used for liking, but also could be used for fear, sales, manipulation and/or deception.

That's worthy of a characteristic measurement.

This is kind of awkward... but I wasn't referring to your posts.

 

[Iracundus]

In traditional SOC Doc Brown gets a 9-10 and likely gets a pass on LL harassment. Pigvomit probably has 4-5 and gets special attention.

EQ SOC, the SOC values are reversed, Doc Brown acts like an ass to the cop and gets special attention, Pigvomit gets a warning and told to get out if he gets to talk- or a trip to jail if there is no time for him to work his magic.

Which approach makes for a better game? I don't really see a downer to either approach, it would be more a matter of what your players would prefer IMO.

I see EQ being reflected in the character's social skills, rather than their SOC. As I stated earlier in this thread, I see SOC as how a random member of society would view the character if they were unaware of any personal reputation that character might have. SOC is what makes that "first impression" based on perceived societal norms reflecting social class. High SOC individuals might still get deference if they are in the right setting regardless of how truly socially inept they might be. They may lose that deference if they start showing their lack of charisma and acting like a jerk.

Pigvomit because of his SOC and manner of dress not hiding his SOC might get questioned a lot more in random law enforcement checks. If he bumps into law enforcement officers that he's chummy with, he may get a pass (personal reputation overriding the SOC reaction). If he's being harassed, his ability to charm, deceive, intimidate, whatever the officers will depend on how well he does on his rolls (success overrides the SOC reaction).

 

[kilemall]

This is kind of awkward... but I wasn't referring to your posts.

Oh no I failed my forum SOC check!

Should have used INT.