Maximum Viable Battleship Size

[Garnfellow]

I am not familiar with all the different ship design systems, but I am curious about how much they vary across editions.

The 500,000 dt Tigress is the largest dreadnought in CT Fighting Ships, but is that the largest viable design using CT High Guard? At TL 15, could you have 700,000 dt or even 1,000,000 dt dreadnoughts? If not, where is the break point?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

CT: You can build up to 1 000 000 dT ships, but there is no reason to. When a spinal meson hits you are toast, whether the ship is 10 000 dT or 1 000 000 dT. The bigger ship is even easier to hit.

You need a very good reason to build anything over 50 000 dT. If you only want to win space battles you probably build 5 000 - 20 000 dT battle riders.

 

[Condottiere]

The Tigresses were exceptions, since the Imperium Navy built their battleships around the largest spinal mount, and seemed to have decided on two hundred kay as being the optimum size for a ship of the line.

The Tigresses are also not supposed to be the largest line of battle ships that the Imperium had constructed, though I'll speculate that the cap was lifted from tech level thirteen onwards, probably some limited classes of tech level thirteen and fourteen, and likely used as fleet flagships.

In Mongoose, there seems some strange restraint in numbers of battle riders, possibly because the enemy tends to kamikaze their tenders.

 

[flykiller]

If not, where is the break point?

as to size, there is no rational break-point. book 5 / hg2 say "1Mdtons max", but it's arbitrary.

as to utility, because of 1) the arbitrary limit of one spinal mount weapon per hull and 2) the universal destructiveness of spinal weapons in complete disregard of target size, in hg2 there is little point in a line-of-battle ship greater than 20kdtons.

the tigress seems to have been conceived before such rules were in effect or perhaps after they had been written and before they had been gamed out in any detail (much like lbb1-3). in real life many benefits are to be gained by size, and these benefits are intuitively obvious, so the tigress made and makes sense outside of those rules.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In Mongoose, there seems some strange restraint in numbers of battle riders, possibly because the enemy tends to kamikaze their tenders.

In MgT battle riders make no sense. Since bigger ship gets more hull points ("hit points") battleships are sturdier.

 

[Garnfellow]

This is very helpful, thanks to all who have chipped in.

Are meson spinals as deadly in MT or TNE?

 

[mike wightman]

Meson spinals are only deadly if they hit - the chance of being hit in HG2 if you have a properly designed ship is very small.

 

[flykiller]

heh, I ran those sequences and scenarios over and over and over again for years, wrote programs to do the calcs, used to have all the numbers memorized ....

the "chance of being hit" is high enough that battles are resolved quickly. presuming tech 15 vs tech 15, if I recall a "properly designed ship" (size k, non-sphere/close hull, agility 6, meson screen 9) has 1/14 chance of being hit, its screen penetrated, and being removed from further combat-relevant consideration (crew gone, power plant gone, weapon gone, any or all - usually all).

larger ships mean 1) fewer spinal mounts overall and 2) size to-hit modifiers come into play. the smaller the ships the better, but too small and excessive vulnerability to missile salvos comes into play. the sweet spot is 12k to 20k dtons.

 

[whartung]

This is very helpful, thanks to all who have chipped in.

Are meson spinals as deadly in MT or TNE?

A single spinal meson hit in CT has a 21% chance of mission killing the ship in one shot. It can do this by shattering the fuel tanks, vaporizing the ship, or killing the crew.

There are other results which can MK a ship, but most of those can have backups, so aren't necessarily lethal right out (and in a large ship, you can afford redundant systems).

But shattered tanks, being blown to smithereens or hurt crew -- the ship is out of the fight.

I can't speak to MT, in TNE they're not as deadly. They're powerful in that they can do internal damage, and that can cause a critical hit, which can destroy the ship outright. But it takes a big gun, at close range, and bigger ships are harder to kill, to pull that off in contrast to any meson hit on any ship in CT.

A 10K+ ton ship in TNE with reasonable Spinal has a 5% chance of outright destroying a comparable ship if it hits, and a 15% chance against a smaller, 1K-9K, DD or CL kind of ship.

Mind, in TNE, you can mount more than one spinal…

 

[Whipsnade]

Are meson spinals as deadly in MT or TNE?

MT ship combat is basically HG2 with tasks, so yes.

However, I will strongly suggest you read the posts Mike and Fly made after you posted your question. Fly's numbers are pretty close to my own experience. Given properly designed ships, the possibility of a hit occurring is about 7 - 9% per round so it's not something as simple as Round 1 - Everyone Shoots, Round 2 - Sweep Up The Rubble.

In thread of this type, we often fall into the trap of Common Knowledge, things we all commonly believe but which aren't entirely accurate. For example, the mantra Fighters are useless was repeated for years until the Smoke Tests at Yahoo's ct_starships[/]i group reminded us all again that it's only over a certain TL that fighters become useless.

We'd all known that, but we fell into the habit of repeating what began as a bit of "shorthand" until we developed blinders of a sort.

Yes, meson spinals in CT and MT are deadly One Hit/One Kill weapons - note my use of the word hit instead of the more commonly used shot. Our oft used "Common Knowledge" phrase concerning meson spinals is One Shot/One Kill but getting a meson hit isn't as automatic as that "Common Knowledge" phrase makes it out to be.

Mesons also "destroy" ships primarily by killed their crews. Repairing and replacing damaged and destroyed systems is simply a matter of money, time, and yard space. Replacing crews however is another question entirely, as I pointed out in Yet Another Thread in which the Spreadsheetists "discussed" ship construction volumes.

As for TNE, I haven't played the ship combat system enough. TNE does allow for multiple spinals remember.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A single spinal meson hit in CT has a 21% chance of mission killing the ship in one shot. It can do this by shattering the fuel tanks, vaporizing the ship, or killing the crew.

With statistical combat resolution from Trillion Credit Squadron a Meson J or bigger automatically inflicts a Fuel Tank Shattered if it hits, so 100% mission kill.

Missiles can annoy the enemy by inflicting a few Weapon hits reducing the spinal factor, making it less likely to hit.

 

[Garnfellow]

So I take it that the LARGE battleship sizes in MT's Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium are one more reason why the book has been decanonized?

Code	Description	Size (dt)
BB-11	Battleship	300,000
BB-12	Battleship	300,000
BB-13	Battleship	300,000
BI-13	Dreadnought	700,000
BI-14	Dreadnought	700,000
BI-15	Dreadnought	700,000
BL-13	Battleship Light	200,000
BL-14	Battleship Light	200,000
BL-15	Battleship Light	200,000
BM-15	Battleship Missile	500,000
BH-14	Battle Heavy	700,000
BH-15	Battle Heavy	700,000
BZ-15	Battle Experimental	500,000
BS-15	Battleship Strike	200,000

Those sizes really don't match up with any other source for capital ships in the 990-1105 period, including CT Fighting Ships, T20 Fighting Ships, and T20 Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation.

 

[flykiller]

With statistical combat resolution from Trillion Credit Squadron a Meson J or bigger automatically inflicts a Fuel Tank Shattered if it hits, so 100% mission kill.

... are you taking meson screens into account?

 

[flykiller]

So I take it that the battleship sizes in MT's Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium are one more reason why the book has been decanonized?

can't speak to mt, but in hg2 there is no reason for such larger combatants.

now, that's tech 15 against other tech 15 opponents. but the major opponents, the zhodani, are tech 14 max, and the other major empires are less, and the supposedly war-like sword-worlders are considerably less. so, given these lower tech-level opponents, larger ships may make good sense, I haven't bothered to run the numbers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I can't speak to MT, in TNE they're not as deadly. They're powerful in that they can do internal damage, and that can cause a critical hit, which can destroy the ship outright. But it takes a big gun, at close range, and bigger ships are harder to kill, to pull that off in contrast to any meson hit on any ship in CT.

A 10K+ ton ship in TNE with reasonable Spinal has a 5% chance of outright destroying a comparable ship if it hits, and a 15% chance against a smaller, 1K-9K, DD or CL kind of ship.

Mind, in TNE, you can mount more than one spinal…

IIRC, in TNE you could build spinal scale lasers with fantastic damage, penetration, and range.

If you cheated and powered the lasers with chemical cartridges of perhaps 1 dT such a spinal scale laser could be carried on a fighter. It would be a single shot weapon, but the beam would go straight through a BB even at extreme range.

Since it is 20 years since I made any TNE designs, I may remember incorrectly...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... are you taking meson screens into account?

The screens only reduce hit probability, not the damage.

 

[Garnfellow]

For example, the mantra Fighters are useless was repeated for years until the Smoke Tests at Yahoo's ct_starships[/]i group reminded us all again that it's only over a certain TL that fighters become useless.

Where was the TL breakpoint on fighters? I saw this in an older thread a few months ago, but didn't bookmark it.

 

[Garnfellow]

now, that's tech 15 against other tech 15 opponents. but the major opponents, the zhodani, are tech 14 max, and the other major empires are less, and the supposedly war-like sword-worlders are considerably less. so, given these lower tech-level opponents, larger ships may make good sense, I haven't bothered to run the numbers.

That's a really important point. The Solomani are also capped at TL 14. So potentially, against lower TL opponents, larger capital ships might have some benefits.

This would also help explain why the Rebellion was such a bloodbath.

 

[mike wightman]

With statistical combat resolution from Trillion Credit Squadron a Meson J or bigger automatically inflicts a Fuel Tank Shattered if it hits, so 100% mission kill.

Missiles can annoy the enemy by inflicting a few Weapon hits reducing the spinal factor, making it less likely to hit.

The 'if it hits' should read 'if it hits and penetrates' defences.
A #J meson has a lousy overall hit probability against a properly designed ship.

 

[mike wightman]

So I take it that the LARGE battleship sizes in MT's Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium are one more reason why the book has been decanonized?

The main reasons for decanonising these ships are they are all badly broken designs and the MT ship construction system has some fundamental flaws.

Those sizes really don't match up with any other source for capital ships in the 990-1105 period, including CT Fighting Ships, T20 Fighting Ships, and T20 Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
With thirty five years of experience building ships using HG if I were designing S:9 there would be some pretty big differences in the designs to maximise the potential of a TL15 fleet.