Medical Skill

[Vladika]

The following quote, in another thread, much abridged, got me thinking.

...Makes as much sense to me as dividing Medical skill into half a dozen subskills would make...

(He was against doing this.)

Assuming a "Doctor" Starts at Medic 3, why not have that same Doctor have a single sub specialty at ONE level higher?

Let's take US medical training today as an example. All Doctors have the "basics" from both medical school and residency. Additionally, those basics are augmented by the specially that the residency trained them for.

So, our Medic 3 if an Emergency Department Physician gets a Medic 4 for Trauma treatment. If a Neurologist, Medic 4 for head injury treatment. Etc, etc, etc.

I don't see a PC training as a Proctologist but... I think the point is made.

Most, if not all, Doctors specialize these days and I think this could be reflected by the Plus 1 for their specialty ONLY. Adds color and a more interesting PC.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Nothing against the concept, I've had similar thoughts - gaining traits, edges, feats, specialties or whatever you want to call it as one gains skill. But for a TRAVELLER game, I don't think this design is a good idea due to added complexity and imbalance. I caped and underlined "Traveller" because 1) I am not familiar with all the different versions 2) for a game system that already has something similar it might be an easier adaptation 3) for a game, even a home brewed Traveller game, built from the ground up with this design in mind it sounds reasonable

Not sure what version of Traveller you are referencing but from the ones I am familiar with, you are either enhancing one specific skill, in this case medic, above all others
gain medic skill during chargen and go from medic 2 to medic 3. Also choose a specialty and get an additional level of skill in that.
or
reducing the effectiveness of one skill
gain medic skill during chargen and do not go from medic 3 to medic 4. Instead, choose a specialty and get level 4 in just the specialty
or
as I mentioned above, you need to put in the work to start from the ground up and look at all the skills and detail out similar "specialties" and also determine how it may effect chargen, task resolution, and any other current game mechanics.

Specialties may be a poor name for your concept since Mongoose already uses the term but it functions differently than you propose.

 

[whulorigan]

IIRC, one of the rule-sets (I believe TNE or T4) divided up Medical into three sub-specialties:

1) Trauma/First Aid
2) Diagnosis
3) Surgery

Not quite what you were talking about above, but I am not sure if there is merit in this or not (I suppose a lot depends on exactly how task-resolution works in the particular system you are using as well).

 

[mike wightman]

Ever notice that if you use CotI to generate a Doctor you could end up with a 7 term doctor with only medical 1?

Medical is another one of the skills I have long had a problem with.

I would go with for each level of medical skill you have experience of a specific area of your choosing.

So at skill 1 you can pick from trauma stabilisation, disease diagnosis, surgery etc.
At level 2 you get another etc. With the correct medical kits and TL appropriate hand computer app you can make up for a lack of specialisation.

 

[McPerth]

The following quote, in another thread, much abridged, got me thinking.

(He was against doing this.)

Assuming a "Doctor" Starts at Medic 3, why not have that same Doctor have a single sub specialty at ONE level higher?

Let's take US medical training today as an example. All Doctors have the "basics" from both medical school and residency. Additionally, those basics are augmented by the specially that the residency trained them for.

So, our Medic 3 if an Emergency Department Physician gets a Medic 4 for Trauma treatment. If a Neurologist, Medic 4 for head injury treatment. Etc, etc, etc.

I don't see a PC training as a Proctologist but... I think the point is made.

Most, if not all, Doctors specialize these days and I think this could be reflected by the Plus 1 for their specialty ONLY. Adds color and a more interesting PC.

In fact, Medical are the only studies in Spain that, after a 6 year univrsity, don't allow you to work in your field unless you make a residency fist (4 -5more years).

IIRC, one of the rule-sets (I believe TNE or T4) divided up Medical into three sub-specialties:

1) Trauma/First Aid
2) Diagnosis
3) Surgery

Not quite what you were talking about above, but I am not sure if there is merit in this or not (I suppose a lot depends on exactly how task-resolution works in the particular system you are using as well).

Those are too broad cathegories (at least if we compare it with the detail Gun Combat is discussed in MgT threeads):

See that any doctor must be able to diagnose, as its one of their main goals. If they fail in that, most their work from this point on is useless (if not outright damaging).

Trauma/First aid (or emergency specialist) is also quite broad. while Trauma is a medical (or more exactly chirurgical) specialty, first aid is a fully diferent field, mostly for non-doctors (in fact, I'd trust more a paramedic tan a doctor for first aid outside a hospital).

Surgery includes many specialties (general Surgery, Urology, Neursurgery, Gynecology, cCrdiovascular, etc...).

There are here no provisions for medical (opposed to Chirurgical) specialities (Internist, Infectious Diseases, Cardiology, Pheumology, Pephrology, Endocrinology, etc...).

In any case, I'm OK with Medical skill being used in the broad sense, for the sake of playability...

Ever notice that if you use CotI to generate a Doctor you could end up with a 7 term doctor with only medical 1?

Medical is another one of the skills I have long had a problem with.

I would go with for each level of medical skill you have experience of a specific area of your choosing.

So at skill 1 you can pick from trauma stabilisation, disease diagnosis, surgery etc.
At level 2 you get another etc. With the correct medical kits and TL appropriate hand computer app you can make up for a lack of specialisation.

As you can generate a 7 term Marine with no gun combat at all (in fact with Gun Combat 0, or just handgun 1 if officer), a Navy carácter with no Vacc Suit at all, etc...

In the case you ell, it could be not a true doctor (as he/she has no skill at 3), but (just to give you an example) a nurse who specialized in non-asistential duties (admin, forensics, etc..).

 

[mike wightman]

Nope, a fully qualified doctor.

Citizens of the Imperium - check it out.

The skill level 3 to be a real doctor comes from where? The CT rules, so why isn't there something in CotI to require taking more levels of medical skill to advance or something like that?

To top that off the doctor career path only allows one skill per term, so actually getting to medic 3 could take a while.

My solution is to require doctors and scientists to take their 4 year college sabbatical before their first term.

So a character who want to be a doctor takes medic 2 from college then starts their first term at 22, gaining medic 3 automatically and two skills for the first term. I do the same for the scientist career.

 

[whulorigan]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]

IIRC, one of the rule-sets (I believe TNE or T4) divided up Medical into three sub-specialties:

1) Trauma/First Aid
2) Diagnosis
3) Surgery

Not quite what you were talking about above, but I am not sure if there is merit in this or not (I suppose a lot depends on exactly how task-resolution works in the particular system you are using as well).

Those are too broad categories (at least if we compare it with the detail Gun Combat is discussed in MgT threads):

See that any doctor must be able to diagnose, as its one of their main goals. If they fail in that, most their work from this point on is useless (if not outright damaging).

Trauma/First aid (or emergency specialist) is also quite broad. while Trauma is a medical (or more exactly chirurgical) specialty, first aid is a fully diferent field, mostly for non-doctors (in fact, I'd trust more a paramedic tan a doctor for first aid outside a hospital).

Surgery includes many specialties (general Surgery, Urology, Neursurgery, Gynecology, Cardiovascular, etc...).

There are here no provisions for medical (opposed to Chirurgical) specialities (Internist, Infectious Diseases, Cardiology, Pheumology, Pephrology, Endocrinology, etc...).

In any case, I'm OK with Medical skill being used in the broad sense, for the sake of playability...

In MgT and the other systems that use a controlling stat for skills in task resolution, the "specialties" I listed above under a single Medic Skill paradigm would likely be:

[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] First Aid = Medical Skill [EDU][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica] Diagnosis = Medical Skill [EDU] or [INT] (depending on whether or not the ailment is unusual or not previously encountered)[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica] Surgery = Medical Skill [DEX][/FONT]
​

[FONT=arial,helvetica]
@McPerth: If you were going to create some slight specialization categories (without being too granular, and recognizing that anyone who had a specialization would still be "Medical-0" [or perhaps "Medical @ half-skill"?] in the other categories), what would you go with, in your experience, in terms of "broad" categories?

Or would you stick with the single overarching Medical Skill?


[/FONT]

 

[tim_manley]

Nope, a fully qualified doctor.

Citizens of the Imperium - check it out.

The skill level 3 to be a real doctor comes from where? The CT rules, so why isn't there something in CotI to require taking more levels of medical skill to advance or something like that?

To top that off the doctor career path only allows one skill per term, so actually getting to medic 3 could take a while.

My solution is to require doctors and scientists to take their 4 year college sabbatical before their first term.

So a character who want to be a doctor takes medic 2 from college then starts their first term at 22, gaining medic 3 automatically and two skills for the first term. I do the same for the scientist career.

In the US (and I presume most other countries) Doctors require a lot of schooling. 2 terms in fact. College + medical school.

The Doctor profession in Supp 04 gives you an automatic Medical 1. But there are only 5 chances across 3 tables to improve your medical skill. Nowhere (unless I miss it) does it say Doctors get 2 skills per term like the Scouts do. So you have to presume that they only gain 1 skill per term. So a 7 term doctor has 8 skill rolls.

It's very much likely that you can't be an official "Doctor" if you don't make the rolls.

However in Book 5 you can spend 4 years in Medical school and graduate with a Medic 3, with honors you get a Medical 4. This also requires that you attend college, so to be a "real" doctor you have to spend a term in college and a term in Medical school.

I think the "Doctor" profession is a broad swath of professions. You cover everything from nurses, hospice care, surgery, general practitioners, etc. All based on what skills you roll and how your career takes it's path.

Since Book's 4,5,6,7 are all CT I see no reason to have include college and academy to basic characters from book 1 and supplement 4.

I think I'm going to include these with the campaign I'm working on with my son and his friends.

 

[Adam Dray]

A typical U.S. doctor completes undergraduate college (4 years), an M.D. graduate program (4 years), then internship and residency (4 years). Surgeons require an additional fellowship after that (maybe 3 years).

I'd give anyone in the Doctor profession one point of Medic for each term. Three terms of Doctor gets you Medic 3.

I'd redefine "real doctor" so that Medic 2 means you're a general practitioner and Medic 3 means you're a surgeon.

 

[tim_manley]

A typical U.S. doctor completes undergraduate college (4 years), an M.D. graduate program (4 years), then internship and residency (4 years). Surgeons require an additional fellowship after that (maybe 3 years).

I'd give anyone in the Doctor profession one point of Medic for each term. Three terms of Doctor gets you Medic 3.

I'd redefine "real doctor" so that Medic 2 means you're a general practitioner and Medic 3 means you're a surgeon.

That's a good idea. It "house rules" that profession, but still a good idea.

The scientist profession looks more like a technician profession. I think a Science skill can make up for that..... but, again, another house rule

 

[Tobias]

So, our Medic 3 if an Emergency Department Physician gets a Medic 4 for Trauma treatment. If a Neurologist, Medic 4 for head injury treatment. Etc, etc, etc.

This is the basic way other games, for example Mechwarrior 2nd edition or Shadowrun, handle skill specializations. Get a small bonus for situations in which your specialization is applicable.
It's certainly feasible - and most certainly a lot more so than having hundreds of separate skills - and I've used it in the games mentioned above but it adds a layer of complexity I'd rather avoid in Traveller.

Traveller typically covers a very wide range of different skill sets, so that even comparably broad skills allow for a fair degree of specialization among characters, thus I see no reason to introduce this extra complexity. The main reason it exists in the above games is to allow for some individuality in skill sets that were otherwise very similar. I don't see the need for this in Traveller.

 

[Bob Weaver]

The following quote, in another thread, much abridged, got me thinking.

(He was against doing this.)

Assuming a "Doctor" Starts at Medic 3, why not have that same Doctor have a single sub specialty at ONE level higher?

Why would it be necessary to do this? If a player wants his character to be a neurosurgeon, let him. Provided, of course he meets the requirements given in TTB (medical-3, Dexterity 8+) Ask the player to work up a backstory about why the character has that specialty, and mine the story for adventure hooks.

How often is the neuro specialty (or any specialty) going to be a factor in an adventure? If it helps flesh out the character and occasionally is of some advantage, great. If they want to just note it along with the character's hair color, great. If it starts coming into play a lot, then the referee should impose some in-game factors to keep play balance. With a 2D6 dice mechanic, a +1 is a significant change. A 'Specialty bonus' sounds like a free +1 skill level if not controlled carefully.

For me, the basic medical rules, expanded by the JTAS article "Medical Treatment in Traveller" are as detailed as I need it to be.

 

[tim_manley]

For me, the basic medical rules, expanded by the JTAS article "Medical Treatment in Traveller" are as detailed as I need it to be.

Have to find that one and read it too....

think I may have to buy the JTAS CDROM...

 

[Carlobrand]

Nope, a fully qualified doctor.

Citizens of the Imperium - check it out.

The skill level 3 to be a real doctor comes from where? The CT rules, so why isn't there something in CotI to require taking more levels of medical skill to advance or something like that?

To top that off the doctor career path only allows one skill per term, so actually getting to medic 3 could take a while.

My solution is to require doctors and scientists to take their 4 year college sabbatical before their first term.

So a character who want to be a doctor takes medic 2 from college then starts their first term at 22, gaining medic 3 automatically and two skills for the first term. I do the same for the scientist career.

Maybe he's a PhD?

The college thing sounds like a variation of the High Guard character creation system's Pre-Enlistment options. I'd mine that source, send him to college for the Edu boost, then (if he graduates) have him take a shot at Medical School. If he makes his Medical School roll, then ship him off to medical school and, if he's successful there, track him straight into Doctor. (Forget the roll at that point; that occurred when he tried to get into Medical school.) A successful med school graduate comes out as a REAL Doctor, possibly Medic-4 if he graduated with honors, and a career that could see him grow even further in expertiese.

On the other hand, the need to successfully complete both college and medical school means there will be more folk who side-track into other careers than who actually reach that exalted level: if he completes college but doesn't get into medical school or washes out, he's still better positioned to become a Bureaucrat, Diplomat or Scientist, or he could try for a career in the Navy and look for a chance to get medical training there.

For that matter, anyone lining up for a job that requires a decent education might take a stab at college first as a means of boosting his Edu and his chances of getting into that field. (I'm seriously wondering why the college degree doesn't give you a skill-1 in SOMEthing, ANYthing. Four years of college, you ought to walk out with at least Carousing, if nothing else. )

On the Scientist end of things, I'd borrow on the Medical School rule and call it a post-graduate program instead of medical school and, if he successfully completed the program, give him a PhD, let him select from one of the four skills in the CotI Scientist Advanced Education table as his area of specialization, and track him straight into Scientist (again, forget the roll; he made that when he graduated the PhD program). So, he'd get educ +1, admin-1, and fill-in-da-blank-3 instead of Medic-3. Then give him an additional level of fill-in-da-blank and Computer-1 if he makes the "honors" roll. Gets you a scientist who is REALLY a scientist, not some guy who knows about as much as your merchant.

But, again, more folk who fall just short and change career tracks than who actually make the grade.

 

[BlackBat242]

I personally like the CT expansion of Medical skill in the article I'm a Doctor, not a... by J. Andrew Kieth in The Space Gamer #47 January 1982.

 

[Hyphen]

There are here no provisions for medical (opposed to Chirurgical) specialities (Internist, Infectious Diseases, Cardiology, Pheumology, Pephrology, Endocrinology, etc...).

Or Xenobiology and therefore the same specialities, just tailored for specific alien races...

In any case, I'm OK with Medical skill being used in the broad sense, for the sake of playability...

So am I, but I have one player who would like to see the professional skills broken out. And by that I mean MUCH more than even the list above.

Of course, my player is a nurse by profession, so that might indicate some bias...

[FONT=arial,helvetica] First Aid = Medical Skill [EDU]
Diagnosis = Medical Skill [EDU] or [INT] (depending on whether or not the ailment is unusual or not previously encountered)
Surgery = Medical Skill [DEX][/FONT]​

This is a cute idea: make the specialties into task rolls, all governed by the broader skill. You could even tweak it (if you're playing MT) by saying they are like Included skills. That should allow a simple house rule where the referee allows the player to pick, say, three specialties (or as many as your Int bonus? There's a thought!) that are "at level", and the rest of the skills can be used at -1 skill level.

I like it!

BTW, if you're after a bunch more of medical sub-skills, try looking at the "Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine", JTAS #22.

 

[McPerth]

@McPerth: If you were going to create some slight specialization categories (without being too granular, and recognizing that anyone who had a specialization would still be "Medical-0" [or perhaps "Medical @ half-skill"?] in the other categories), what would you go with, in your experience, in terms of "broad" categories?

Or would you stick with the single overarching Medical Skill?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

As already said, I'd stick in a single medical skill, but OK, I'll bite...

If I should have to give Medical Skill specializations I'll probably use:

1. Surgen: specialist in surgery (of course). Requires at least dex 8 (as rules state, though with the advent of robotic surgery this could be argued...)
2. Internist: Specialist in non-chirurgical treatments
3. Emergency: would include ICU and Emergency Room specialists

This choice should only had to be made for those with skill over 3¹, as skill 3¹ represents the basic medical studies. Other specialties would be treated has having the skill at this basic 3¹ if needed.

Skill level 2 in MgT, as in MgT a Medic-2 is a full doctor, according CB, page 51 sidebar​

Given the use of the skill while in play, I guess most players would choose the 3^rd option (Emergency specialist), as it's the one that cares for most gaming situations.

As for Xeno-medicine, I'd just raise the difficulty for using the skill in another race that the character's (assuming he's trained for his/her own race), depending on how different is the other race (let's say, for a human doctor, one level harder to treat a Vargr, two or more for a Droyne or Hyver), maybe modified by the Biology skill, if also possessed.

Why would it be necessary to do this? If a player wants his character to be a neurosurgeon, let him. Provided, of course he meets the requirements given in TTB (medical-3, Dexterity 8+) Ask the player to work up a backstory about why the character has that specialty, and mine the story for adventure hooks.

How often is the neuro specialty (or any specialty) going to be a factor in an adventure? If it helps flesh out the character and occasionally is of some advantage, great. If they want to just note it along with the character's hair color, great. If it starts coming into play a lot, then the referee should impose some in-game factors to keep play balance. With a 2D6 dice mechanic, a +1 is a significant change. A 'Specialty bonus' sounds like a free +1 skill level if not controlled carefully.

For me, the basic medical rules, expanded by the JTAS article "Medical Treatment in Traveller" are as detailed as I need it to be.

That's the approach I use to take too.

 

[Marchand]

I've always regarded Medic as a skill level in Space Medic (or you could call it Field Medic). It's enough first aid, surgery and general practice savvy to spot common diseases and, most importantly, stabilise someone (probably by stuffing them in a low berth or MGT autodoc) until they can be turned over to the care of specialists.

The specialists generally won't be PCs because specialists will be holding down responsible jobs in large medical facilities rather than tramping about the Spinward Marches (for example). If a PC wants to be a specialist, it has to fit with the campaign the ref and other players have in mind. If people want to play Sector General, then fine (maybe).

More generally, I want my Traveller rules to be a framework that facilitates SF adventure gaming, and not a reality simulator. I don't need Proctology skill because it almost certainly won't come up in a game about Travelling. Neither do I need a Pebble-Dashing skill or a Fondue skill. (Cheese OR Chocoloate specialities...)

 

[Garyius2003]

I've always regarded Medic as a skill level in Space Medic (or you could call it Field Medic). It's enough first aid, surgery and general practice savvy to spot common diseases and, most importantly, stabilise someone (probably by stuffing them in a low berth or MGT autodoc) until they can be turned over to the care of specialists.

The specialists generally won't be PCs because specialists will be holding down responsible jobs in large medical facilities rather than tramping about the Spinward Marches (for example). If a PC wants to be a specialist, it has to fit with the campaign the ref and other players have in mind. If people want to play Sector General, then fine (maybe).

More generally, I want my Traveller rules to be a framework that facilitates SF adventure gaming, and not a reality simulator. I don't need Proctology skill because it almost certainly won't come up in a game about Travelling. Neither do I need a Pebble-Dashing skill or a Fondue skill. (Cheese OR Chocoloate specialities...)

I like this post a lot. We should assume as a base that a medic is a space medic/doctor. Some medical care for illness that the pan immunity does not cover, injuries, radiation, decompression, cold sleep. If the player wants a better back story skill, let him/her say they were a specialist in (growing and implanting new organs at University of X Medical Center), now (looking for Y, disgraced, having mid life crisis). and give them a (+1 for organs and internal medicine, -1 for decompression and cold sleep).

By the same token engineers in basic Traveller should be space engineers, if the player want to have been in a shipyard or only on battleships or megafreighters, let them do the same for MD or JD or something.

I know Mongoose already did this, but as a default skill tree it is too much of a pain. This type of break down should be the exception, not the rule. I include the HG breakdown for bays and turrets and such in this criticism.

 

[McPerth]

I've always regarded Medic as a skill level in Space Medic (or you could call it Field Medic). It's enough first aid, surgery and general practice savvy to spot common diseases and, most importantly, stabilise someone (probably by stuffing them in a low berth or MGT autodoc) until they can be turned over to the care of specialists.

The specialists generally won't be PCs because specialists will be holding down responsible jobs in large medical facilities rather than tramping about the Spinward Marches (for example). If a PC wants to be a specialist, it has to fit with the campaign the ref and other players have in mind. If people want to play Sector General, then fine (maybe).

More generally, I want my Traveller rules to be a framework that facilitates SF adventure gaming, and not a reality simulator. I don't need Proctology skill because it almost certainly won't come up in a game about Travelling. Neither do I need a Pebble-Dashing skill or a Fondue skill. (Cheese OR Chocoloate specialities...)

This is what I meant when I said most players would choose an emergency specialist as their medical specialty if those are featured into the game. That's one of the reasons not to specialize the skill, IMHO.