Medical Skill

[rancke]

More generally, I want my Traveller rules to be a framework that facilitates SF adventure gaming, and not a reality simulator. I don't need Proctology skill because it almost certainly won't come up in a game about Travelling. Neither do I need a Pebble-Dashing skill or a Fondue skill. (Cheese OR Chocoloate specialities...)

Whereas I want my RPG rules to facilitate whatever kind of gaming I and my players feel like playing. Not a reality simulator. Just game rules with some versatility. If for some reason Proctology skill becomes pertinent to my campaign, I want my rules to support Proctology skill.

It's true that I can't imagine Proctology skill becoming pertinent to my campaign, but it would be a little myopic of me to think that only those skills that I have a use for are essential and that all the skills for which I have no use are unnecessary and that people who think otherwise are being silly.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

... Neither do I need a Pebble-Dashing skill or a Fondue skill. (Cheese OR Chocoloate specialities...)

I dunno, that Fondue skill can come in handy on a date.

 

[Vladika]

My original thought was to add a "specialty", gratis, to add color to the game. The PC would just pick that one narrower field where he could get that tiny extra boost. Not a huge plus, but occasionally interesting.

Also, I never intended it to be for "medics", but Doctor (Medic 3 or better). Certainly nothing that would upset play balance.

In addition, it would require absolutely NO new tables, formula, or even rules.

On occasion the Doctor could be as needed and colorful as the dashing Pilot or "Gun Bunny".

Examples:

Your Doc is an epidemiologist and a patron, needs a plague or virus three systems away looked into NOW, not a year latter.

Your Doc is an obstetrician and a passenger goes into labor.

Your Doc is a pediatrician and there is a rampant children's disease at the spaceport on your next stop.

In ANY case he's still a Doctor with Medic 3. He now occasionally adds a bit more interest and every now and then comes up with a new plot hook or favorable (hopefully) contact.

Again, no tables, formula, or rules changes.

 

[McPerth]

My original thought was to add a "specialty", gratis, to add color to the game. The PC would just pick that one narrower field where he could get that tiny extra boost. Not a huge plus, but occasionally interesting.

Also, I never intended it to be for "medics", but Doctor (Medic 3 or better). Certainly nothing that would upset play balance.

In addition, it would require absolutely NO new tables, formula, or even rules.

On occasion the Doctor could be as needed and colorful as the dashing Pilot or "Gun Bunny".

Examples:

Your Doc is an epidemiologist and a patron, needs a plague or virus three systems away looked into NOW, not a year latter.

Your Doc is an obstetrician and a passenger goes into labor.

Your Doc is a pediatrician and there is a rampant children's disease at the spaceport on your next stop.

In ANY case he's still a Doctor with Medic 3. He now occasionally adds a bit more interest and every now and then comes up with a new plot hook or favorable (hopefully) contact.

Again, no tables, formula, or rules changes.

The problem is that once you give a specialty for anything other tan just colour, some people will see other face of the coin.

just to twist your examples:

Your Doc is an psychiatrist and a patron, needs a plague or virus three systems away looked into NOW, not a year latter.

Your Doc is an andrologist and a passenger goes into labor.

Your Doc is a gerontolgist and there is a rampant children's disease at the spaceport on your next stop.

:devil:

 

[tim_manley]

A looong time ago I ran a Traveller campaign where I used what I called “Tim’s Classic Traveller” – which was CT/MT with some house-rules tossed in.

The group was a Doctor, a Bureaucrat, a Scientist, a Barbarian, a Scout and a Noble. The noble rolled a yacht 3 times for his Mustering Out Benefits, so I let him design a ship with a cost limit. He built a pretty good ship, J2, 1G (My limitation) and this turned into their “adventuring ship”.

Every player retired their character from their prospective career, except for the Barbarian as memory serves, in his 5th term he failed his survival roll. I used the optional rule during that day of having a Mishap and ending after 2 terms.

The Doctor had a Medical 5, the Barbarian a Medical 3.

The third adventure they ended up on a planet that was suffering from a plague. They players worked to help solve the problem. I had local political intrigue, racism (the “barbarian people” vs. the “civilized people”. Between the two, doing investigation, research, and trying to figure it out, they ended up coming up with a solution. That game session took about 6 hours to run and everyone wanted to stay up in the wee hours of the morning to finish it instead of continuing.

I used the Medical skill to cover everything from prepping samples, to manipulating them, to coming up with medicine, etc. One skill covered anything the players tried to do.

 

[mike wightman]

Just some random thoughts on this.

Trouble is if you are already skill level 3 getting a bonus of +1 is not a small extra boost it is a great big boost.

The question is also bound to come up from players why other skills at 3 or higher can't pick a specialisation - hey I'm an ace pilot but my speciality is 200t fast traders, can I get a +1 when flying one of those?

Perhaps what is needed is to require technical skills to pick a speciality for skills levels over 3.
Or even all skills are general until level 3 and then specialisation is required.

 

[Adam Dray]

Can't we just assume that the doctors of the future

a) learn more than doctors today, much as scientists today learn more than those of the 1600's.

b) have incredible tools at their disposal in TL>11 worlds, so any trained doctor with access to a (computerized) medkit is basically an expert neurologist, pathologist, gerontologist, pediatrician, dermatologist, etc.


Why be bogged down by modern limitations? We're creative folks, playing a science fiction game. Let's be futurists, too.

 

[aramis]

Can't we just assume that the doctors of the future

a) learn more than doctors today, much as scientists today learn more than those of the 1600's.

b) have incredible tools at their disposal in TL>11 worlds, so any trained doctor with access to a (computerized) medkit is basically an expert neurologist, pathologist, gerontologist, pediatrician, dermatologist, etc.


Why be bogged down by modern limitations? We're creative folks, playing a science fiction game. Let's be futurists, too.

Scientists today learn deeper but FAR narrower than those of the past.
Doctors today learn deeper but narrower than those of the past as well.

There is little to indicate that the trend will reverse in either case.

It used to be that the masters was the point that specialization into fields happened; bachelors degrees were in General Arts, General Sciences, Law, Philosophy, or Theology. A chemist would have a bachelors in science, and a masters in Chemistry. His doctorate might be in some aspect of chemistry. Now, it's the associates that is the general sciences degree, the bachelors is in chem, the masters might be petrochem, and the doctorate focused on fractional distilation of petrochemicals.

 

[Adam Dray]

Scientists today learn deeper but FAR narrower than those of the past.
Doctors today learn deeper but narrower than those of the past as well.

There is little to indicate that the trend will reverse in either case.

I'm suggesting that computers will raise the minimum level of ability for all specialists in the future. It's speculation and certainly no sure thing, but it's less speculative than, say, working jump drives.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Roleplay

A looong time ago I ran a Traveller campaign where I used what I called “Tim’s Classic Traveller” – which was CT/MT with some house-rules tossed in.

The group was a Doctor, a Bureaucrat, a Scientist, a Barbarian, a Scout and a Noble. The noble rolled a yacht 3 times for his Mustering Out Benefits, so I let him design a ship with a cost limit. He built a pretty good ship, J2, 1G (My limitation) and this turned into their “adventuring ship”.

Every player retired their character from their prospective career, except for the Barbarian as memory serves, in his 5th term he failed his survival roll. I used the optional rule during that day of having a Mishap and ending after 2 terms.

The Doctor had a Medical 5, the Barbarian a Medical 3.

The third adventure they ended up on a planet that was suffering from a plague. They players worked to help solve the problem. I had local political intrigue, racism (the “barbarian people” vs. the “civilized people”. Between the two, doing investigation, research, and trying to figure it out, they ended up coming up with a solution. That game session took about 6 hours to run and everyone wanted to stay up in the wee hours of the morning to finish it instead of continuing.

I used the Medical skill to cover everything from prepping samples, to manipulating them, to coming up with medicine, etc. One skill covered anything the players tried to do.

Which is why we call it a "Role Playing Game".
You roll the dice to gain skills to use later then role play their use as the situations demand or unravel in some cases.
Without going too deeply into the technical aspects of the system and sciences your group worked out the necessary details through role play.

 

[aramis]

I'm suggesting that computers will raise the minimum level of ability for all specialists in the future. It's speculation and certainly no sure thing, but it's less speculative than, say, working jump drives.

They haven't, really, done so yet. They've massively enhanced engineers' productivity, and reduced the need for many scientists to know the mid-level college math to a professional standard (which most quit anyway in the early 20th C, instead hiring statisticians to do the calculations for them).

I mean, dabblers and aficionados like myself can easily search up bits and chunks, but the people advancing the fields are in ever more and more specialized subfields. There simply is too much to learn more than the basics as a generalist. The generalists are the guys connecting across disciplines, but they're not the ones doing the details.

As a game artifice, 5 sciences is sufficient for most (Life, Physical, Social, Medical, and Subatomic), adding a 6th (warp/quantum/hyperdimensional) as needed for sci-fi rationale, but really, past, oh, say, level 2 on the CT scale, each additional level should become narrower.

 

[Adam Dray]

They haven't, really, done so yet.

Not yet, but we're talking about civilizations that are many, many TLs higher than ours today. When does true AI come in? At that point, expert systems will make doctors much smarter.

 

[McPerth]

Not yet, but we're talking about civilizations that are many, many TLs higher than ours today. When does true AI come in? At that point, expert systems will make doctors much smarter.

I would not call smarter what expert programs make in any field. Quicker to decide, perhaps, but also more dependent on them. And in any case, they may multiply the knowledge of the Doctor, not so much his skill.

 

[mike wightman]

Doctors here in the real world already use computers extensively for diagnosis. They use medical databases to match symptoms to likely causes, they use drug data bases to prescribe the correct drugs.

Surgeons use computer imaging, robotic surgical instruments etc.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Just the start of some ideas based on this discussion.

The first idea has to do with task difficulty and skill level for easy tasks.

Certain tasks only need a certain skill level to accomplish. Having more skill does not have much of a impact. For example, would a car mechanic level 4 be much better than a car mechanic level 2 at replacing worn wiper blades or changing the oil or even replacing brake pads? For another example, a Medic 4 and a Medic 2 are probably both as capable at performing basic medical tasks like CPR or cleaning and stitching a cut.


The second idea has to do with having a broader base knowledge at lower skill levels and narrower specialized knowledge at higher skill levels.

Some skills have specialties. The first skill levels recognize learning the basic general abilities of a profession. Advancing further might involve picking a narrower field of study, a specialty. For example, a character gains Engineering skill 1 and 2 as normal but at level 3 chooses a specialty such as Engineering (Jump) or Engineering (Power). Another Example, a character gains Medic skill 1 and 2 as normal but at level 3 can choose a specialty such as Medic (cardiologist) or Medic (neurologist).


The third idea has to do with task difficulty and skill level for very difficult tasks.

Certain tasks need a certain skill level to accomplish. Without this level of skill, the character has not yet gained the proper expertise for the task. For example a car mechanic 2 knows the basics but you probably want a engine specialist or higher skilled mechanic to rebuild the engine and a higher skilled mechanic or transmission specialist to rebuild the transmission. Another Example, a Medic 2 may have set bones or removed a gallbladder but you probably want a higher skilled medic or specialist to do your wafer jack brain surgery or work on your damaged spine.


Combining these three ideas, we get a system where
1) Certain easy tasks which are mostly only an issue for those with no skill or a poor natural ability (low characteristic) only make use of the basic skill level. Specialties do not add in.
2) Average tasks would use the basic and appropriate specialty skill when available.
3) Very difficult tasks might impose a penalty if the character does not possess the appropriate specialty.

Note that in 1) for skills that don't have specialties because the GM and play group decide that for their game the skill is not diverse enough to require them (even if the "rules" provide suggested specializations) or they have decided not to use specializations at all, you might place a limit on the +DM available from a skill.
Note that in 2) for skills that don't have specialties because the GM and play group decide that for their game the skill is not diverse enough to require them (even if the "rules" provide suggested specializations) or they have decided not to use specializations at all, you just use the skill level as usual.
Note that in 3) for skills that don't have specialties because the GM and play group decide that for their game the skill is not diverse enough to require them (even if the "rules" provide suggested specializations) or they have decided not to use specializations at all, you might still impose a penalty if the character does not possess more than the basic level of proficiency.

 

[Golan2072]

I've always regarded Medic as a skill level in Space Medic (or you could call it Field Medic). It's enough first aid, surgery and general practice savvy to spot common diseases and, most importantly, stabilise someone (probably by stuffing them in a low berth or MGT autodoc) until they can be turned over to the care of specialists.

The specialists generally won't be PCs because specialists will be holding down responsible jobs in large medical facilities rather than tramping about the Spinward Marches (for example). If a PC wants to be a specialist, it has to fit with the campaign the ref and other players have in mind. If people want to play Sector General, then fine (maybe).

More generally, I want my Traveller rules to be a framework that facilitates SF adventure gaming, and not a reality simulator. I don't need Proctology skill because it almost certainly won't come up in a game about Travelling. Neither do I need a Pebble-Dashing skill or a Fondue skill. (Cheese OR Chocoloate specialities...)

I agree completely. In a simple game such as CT, there is little point, game-wise, to have too many rules in place for speciality. After all, chances are that your typical Traveller group of PCs will have maybe one character with high (3+) ranks in Medic, and, in many cases, you'll just have a paramedic around (Medic-1), so the need to differentiate skills between various characters would be minimal, and the fact that you are playing a specialist and not just a general doctor will rarely come in actual play. The only skills which are specialized in CT are weapon skills, and these come ALOT into play, plus all PCs have skill-0 in all weapons so this is actually similar to (A)D&D "weapon specialization". If you want to have a background of a specialist, just decide on it; it won't really come up much in play, only occasionally, and serve the Referee well as a plot-hook. If you are running a hospital-ship game, however, you'll definitely need specializations.

Also, as noted above, keep in mind that Traveller travel assumptions would make the field of science and medicine far less specialized than it is today, on our TL7, Pop9 world. After all, a ship's medic will have to take care of a variety of medical emergencies in complete isolation, in Jumpspace or in real-space several weeks of travel from an actual hospital, and in such circumstances, specialization is a luxury a starship can't afford - you'd want a generalist. The same goes to frontier colonies (a Pop1-4 world would rarely have a proper hospital), and, more than that, to military starships where the ship's Medic will have to treat combat injuries far away from any specialist. So specialists you'll find in the Core, not the High Frontier.

The same goes to Science - I'd definitely accept a singular Science skill in the CT milieu, denoting the skills of a starship's science officer. This won't be a university researcher by any means, but someone who can perform various kinds of on-the-spot research in exploration and frontier situations, where you can't just e-mail the data to a number of specialists.

 

[BlackBat242]

Then you really wouldn't like The Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine article in JTAS #22, which details how to generate higher education and skills for doctors and scientists.

I found it rather fun.

 

[Marchand]

Whereas I want my RPG rules to facilitate whatever kind of gaming I and my players feel like playing. Not a reality simulator. Just game rules with some versatility. If for some reason Proctology skill becomes pertinent to my campaign, I want my rules to support Proctology skill.

So what you're essentially asking for, I think, is a generic system. There is old debate that sometimes crops up about the merits of generic versus genre-dedicated RPG systems. I personally find generic systems with kitchen-sink skill lists, e.g. GURPS, bland and difficult to get excited about. The reason I like Classic Traveller so much is because the mood the game is trying to achieve jumps off every page, including through a quirky and idiosyncratic selection of skills.

There's no right and wrong in this debate. It's a matter of taste.

Although I do disagree with you on the versatility point. You can easily create your own new Doctor career and a load of specialist medical skills that can be learned it it, if you like. (At least in the versions I'm more familiar with - CT, MT, T4, MGT.)

 

[McPerth]

The second idea has to do with having a broader base knowledge at lower skill levels and narrower specialized knowledge at higher skill levels.

Some skills have specialties. The first skill levels recognize learning the basic general abilities of a profession. Advancing further might involve picking a narrower field of study, a specialty. For example, a character gains Engineering skill 1 and 2 as normal but at level 3 chooses a specialty such as Engineering (Jump) or Engineering (Power). Another Example, a character gains Medic skill 1 and 2 as normal but at level 3 can choose a specialty such as Medic (cardiologist) or Medic (neurologist).

How do you think most people would react if you suggest using this system also for gun combat :CoW:?

See that unless we make it work as any cascade skill (as said elsewere, I do not considere Trade a "true" cascade skill, nor should it be Linguistics, IMHO) or we're going into special rules that I always think better to avoid if at all posible (or the book might become the British Enciclopedia in size).

When I say I'd keep Medical as a single skill, without specialties, that does not mean there are none, but any player would choose Emergency specialist (as I described what specialties I'd give) or the equivalent, as is the more useful in game. I have serious doubts anyone would choose a Pediatrics specialist (while a gerontologist might be useful in some groups that spend too many terms in Chargen :devil. In hospitals, it is assumed there are any specialists needed (that's one of the reasons for recovery being quicker and safer in a hospital, aside of means available).

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Computers

I always thought that Traveller Computers could bring up any specialty information a doctor needed to diagnose or treat anything previously encountered. So then a doctor would need less specialization in his training/experience.