Mega-Structures IYTU?

[infojunky]

Who's got awesome Mega-Structures in your Traveller universe?

You hear about them:
a trans-atmospheric tower
a ring world
a 7 mile tall (deep) ocean habitat
strato-grainaries for pulling food-stuff out of the air

What Mega-Structures have you got IYTU?

Hum, that is a hard question, kinda. I have bunches of converted/moved astroid sorts of bases, Lots of Stations. Close associations of Arcologies and the like.

I have been pondering a Dyson Sphere in its classic mode, i.e. a collection of planetoids and asteroids move to surround a star at fixed distance not a unitary sphere. Also I find that Halo's rom the game of the same name are attractive, in that there are realistically planetary scale objects.

Also I have been toying with Habitats from T5.

Though as my games trend toward TL10-12 there more locations in play than just the Mainworlds.

 

[Enoki]

The biggest I go, are planetoid sized space stations either made from a big asteroid or entirely artificial. In one case it was a smaller planet with a massive A population that had like a half-dozen such stations on tethers orbiting it. I've also used asteroid colonies where a number of asteroids are now connected by tethers or rigid structures into a much larger single structure.

I figure any civilization that could make a Dyson sphere or a ringworld would need technology well beyond what you find in Traveller so there's little point to it.

 

[atpollard]

I figure any civilization that could make a Dyson sphere or a ringworld would need technology well beyond what you find in Traveller so there's little point to it.

What if you just started to build a "Ringworld" at TL 9? Say an "Egypt" or "China" type of culture where a megaproject spanning generations didn't scare them, so they just began building MD powered segments in Solar Orbit and linking them together with a vision that SOMEDAY the "Ring" will stretch back to the beginning and close! They mined their system of all the planets for resources and built Jump Drives to haul more resources from adjacent systems.

"Since you aren't using that airless ball of rock, you don't mind if we mine it, do you?" ... THOUSANDS of ships arrive to begin to strip, process and haul away the world to continue construction of the "Ring".

 

[Enoki]

What if you just started to build a "Ringworld" at TL 9? Say an "Egypt" or "China" type of culture where a megaproject spanning generations didn't scare them, so they just began building MD powered segments in Solar Orbit and linking them together with a vision that SOMEDAY the "Ring" will stretch back to the beginning and close! They mined their system of all the planets for resources and built Jump Drives to haul more resources from adjacent systems.

"Since you aren't using that airless ball of rock, you don't mind if we mine it, do you?" ... THOUSANDS of ships arrive to begin to strip, process and haul away the world to continue construction of the "Ring".

It's not so simple. To do so means you have the excess resources, refinement and production capacity, and then the means to move all of it to the location. You'd also need a level of engineering expertise you might not have. Then on top of that, you need a motivation to do it. What does building a ringworld get you?

Instead, I'd see it more like Egypt with the pyramids: You start small with step pyramids, then move up to small smooth sided ones, then to bigger ones, etc. Pyramids across the world were motivated by the rich and powerful wanting a lasting monument to themselves. China's early emperors were the same way.

 

[atpollard]

It's not so simple. To do so means you have the excess resources, refinement and production capacity, and then the means to move all of it to the location. You'd also need a level of engineering expertise you might not have. Then on top of that, you need a motivation to do it. What does building a ringworld get you?

Instead, I'd see it more like Egypt with the pyramids: You start small with step pyramids, then move up to small smooth sided ones, then to bigger ones, etc. Pyramids across the world were motivated by the rich and powerful wanting a lasting monument to themselves. China's early emperors were the same way.

Mexico City (the Aztec version before the Spanish) was founded because of a sacred vision that the place they should build their permanent home would be where they saw an eagle, standing on a cactus and eating a snake. The location where they finally saw that sign (after generations of searching) was on a tiny rock in the middle of a lake. So they built rafts covered in dirt, floated them into position, and planted on top of the rafts. Over the centuries, the trees rooted the rafts to the lake bottom and the wood huts were replaced by giant stone pyramids and palaces ... all at TL 0!

Where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Enoki]

Mexico City (the Aztec version before the Spanish) was founded because of a sacred vision that the place they should build their permanent home would be where they saw an eagle, standing on a cactus and eating a snake. The location where they finally saw that sign (after generations of searching) was on a tiny rock in the middle of a lake. So they built rafts covered in dirt, floated them into position, and planted on top of the rafts. Over the centuries, the trees rooted the rafts to the lake bottom and the wood huts were replaced by giant stone pyramids and palaces ... all at TL 0!

Where there is a will, there is a way.

But none of that required much of anything beyond extant technology. Now, if the Aztecs had innovated, like discovered copper, zinc, and other metals and began smelting, achieving beyond stone age technology, for example, you might have something.

 

[Grav_Moped]

But none of that required much of anything beyond extant technology. Now, if the Aztecs had innovated, like discovered copper, zinc, and other metals and began smelting, achieving beyond stone age technology, for example, you might have something.

It's a city they built on a lake, from scratch (that is, without even having ground there to build it on) at very low tech. I'll give 'em credit for it.

 

[atpollard]

Having been challenged to its constructability at TL 9, I was curious. So I went to CT (High Guard and Scouts) to test my hypothesis. Here is what I propose as an IMTU TL 9 Ringworld.

The starting assumptions are:

1. a TL 9 planet/civilization with self-sufficient industrial/Tech capacity.
2. A desire to build a Ringworld (cost and practicality be d*mned).
3. POP 9 and a Class B (or A) starport with a shipyard.

From SCOUTS, orbit 0 of a DB (white dwarf) star is 0.2 AU radius, 29,900 km circumference, and in the HABITABLE zone of the star. We will build our "Ringworld" in Orbit 0 of a DB Star.

From High Guard, it is possible to construct a hull of 1 million dTons, therefore we will construct a space station of 1 million dTons that is exactly 1 deck tall with wingwalls at the ends [forming a giant "U" like a floating drydock section]. The Station will be 1 km wide x 4.6 km long. It will have just enough PP and MD for station keeping and Grav Plates (1 G artificial Gravity). The station will be constructed at the Class B Shipyard and transported into position in circular orbit 0 where it will orbit the star. The 4.6 km length of the station will be slightly curved with a 0.2 AU radius.

A second identical million dTon TL 9 space station will be constructed at the Shipyard. Upon completion, it will be moved into orbit 0 and dock with the first station. As each segment is completed, people can move in and inhabit the station with terraforming of the surface.

When station 6,500 is completed and moved into position, it will dock with station 6499 on one side and station 1 on the other side and complete the ring.

Some URBAN PLANNING (back of envelope) thoughts on POPULATION. Frank Lloyd Wright proposed a "Broad Acre City" utopia model of self-sufficient communities with 1 acre lots [Pop Density 5 per acre]. Using Broad Acre City (TL 5) as a model, each Station would be home to about 1.8 million people giving the "Ring" POP 7 by Station 6, POP 8 by Station 60, POP 9 by Station 600 and POP 10 by Station 6000. Using modern Vertical Farming and Urban population densities, the completed ring could reach a population of over 170 billion people [POP 11].

 

[Spinward Flow]

Using Broad Acre City (TL 5) as a model, each Station would be home to about 1.8 million people giving the "Ring" POP 7 by Station 6, POP 8 by Station 60, POP 9 by Station 600 and POP 10 by Station 6000. Using modern Vertical Farming and Urban population densities, the completed ring could reach a population of over 170 billion people [POP 11].

"We shall seize the living space in Russia!"

We shall BUILD the living space around a white dwarf star!




Wait, what's our budget look like again?

 

[Grav_Moped]

"We shall seize the living space in Russia!"

We shall BUILD the living space around a white dwarf star!




Wait, what's our budget look like again?

Now we've got all this room
We've even got the Moon
And I hear the USSR will be open soon
As vacation land for Lawyers in Love

(Jackson Browne, link is to YT, audio and a static image rather than the music video.)

 

[atpollard]

Wait, what's our budget look like again?

Preliminary estimates:

• 260 billion credits per Station.
• 145,000 credits per resident (Broad Acre City) [14,500 credits down & Cr 800/mo x 360 months]
• 10,000 credits per resident (Modern Urban) [1000 credits down & Cr 60/mo x 360 months]

 

[Spinward Flow]

Preliminary estimates:

• 260 billion credits per Station.

At 6500 stations, that turns into MCr1,690,000,000 (roughly).



I don't know about anyone else ... but 1700 trillion credits for a construction project on the order of a "ringworld around a white dwarf" is starting to sound like a BARGAIN at that price, for a (literal) "world building project" on that scale. Better yet, I can think that there would be a "volume discount" on construction for every station built after the first (when you're planning to buy 6500 of them) ...

Granted, the budget needed for such a project is running up into the level of Aryu, rather than "mere" credits ... but that basically comes with the territory of megaprojects on that kind of scope and scale.



Gets even more fun when you realize that with appropriately sized jump tenders, those 6500 stations can be EXPORTED to nearby star systems ... so you don't necessarily need to stop at building "just one" ringworld if you don't want to.

 

[Enoki]

It's a city they built on a lake, from scratch (that is, without even having ground there to build it on) at very low tech. I'll give 'em credit for it.

They were forced there through wars with other tribal neighbors. They then made the best of a bad situation. That is often the case with civilizations as Toynbee points out. Building a ringworld, or a Dyson sphere, requires at least some motivation and reason for building it. No civilization is going to suddenly say, We're bored. Hey! Let's build a ringworld! Here's what it would look like...

Now, I could see a world that's overpopulated and has fairly high tech, building tethered mega stations off the world and these, over time, become a sort of mini-Dyson sphere. As they reach some level of forced expansion, they decide to build out again. In part however, this also would require that there are no easy, cheap, alternatives.

For example, the Aztecs and their neighbors engaged in an endless war (Flower Wars) to take prisoners for sacrifice. The rules were agreed to--more or less--and technology remained fixed in large part to stay within the rules they were using. Warfare of this sort actually retarded technological advancement rather than aided it. Since it kept population pressure down, that didn't become an impetus to expand or to innovate.

 

[Grav_Moped]

They were forced there through wars with other tribal neighbors. They then made the best of a bad situation. That is often the case with civilizations as Toynbee points out. Building a ringworld, or a Dyson sphere, requires at least some motivation and reason for building it. No civilization is going to suddenly say, We're bored. Hey! Let's build a ringworld! Here's what it would look like...

Forced or not, they did it. Big project, though I'm pretty sure it was piecemeal at first, and might not have had an overall plan.

That's a useful enabling feature: something without an overarching plan, that accretes to a desired vast end state just through being the product of the easiest or default course of action.

The ur-ringworld was built as a place to store backup stockpiles of human-variants in a place that would be safe against a specific galactic-scope catastrophe that the builders knew was coming. That's motivation!

Traveller has its own rolling impending doom thing, and perhaps that might motivate something similar.

 

[Enoki]

Forced or not, they did it. Big project, though I'm pretty sure it was piecemeal at first, and might not have had an overall plan.

That's a useful enabling feature: something without an overarching plan, that accretes to a desired vast end state just through being the product of the easiest or default course of action.

The ur-ringworld was built as a place to store backup stockpiles of human-variants in a place that would be safe against a specific galactic-scope catastrophe that the builders knew was coming. That's motivation!

Traveller has its own rolling impending doom thing, and perhaps that might motivate something similar.

But what they did was more akin to terraforming without having to push their technology limits much. Ring worlds and Dyson spheres get into very complex engineering issues PDQ. You have a structure that has stresses on it, that during construction could require periodic adjustments in position due to gravitational effects, etc.

The alternative of having a FTL system available and just spreading your civilization to other planets like a bunch of cockroaches might be a better alternative to building a mega structure where you are at. This is particularly true if you have to go to other systems to get the resources. Why not just expend them there?

Right now, humanity could easily build a mile + high skyscraper. It hasn't been done because it's not practical. The Saudis wanted to build "The Wall"

That's supposed to be a 170 km "linear city" of immense size. They're already scaling back massively because it just doesn't work as well as the designers claim.

This is an artist's impression of how the interior would look:

Just because you can imagine it doesn't mean you can build it and they will come, so-to-speak.

 

[Condottiere]

Infrastructure construction, especially one that requires a lot of investment in time and money, depends on political will.

Corruption and graft helps.

 

[kilemall]

Infrastructure construction, especially one that requires a lot of investment in time and money, depends on political will.

Corruption and graft helps.

Virgin territory for the man who can open markets…. Robocop-

 

[whartung]

Right now, humanity could easily build a mile + high skyscraper. It hasn't been done because it's not practical. The Saudis wanted to build "The Wall"

Yea, at the moment, that's not happening. Not very well at least. Shockingly, they're running into all sorts of "huge project" problems. The CEO abruptly left recently as well.

 

[GypsyComet]

It's not so simple. To do so means you have the excess resources, refinement and production capacity, and then the means to move all of it to the location. You'd also need a level of engineering expertise you might not have.

If you're already looking at other systems for ringworld building material, most of those engineering and logistics challenges have been solved, as has the decision to play the long game.

Imagine if such a project was able to do the fabrication at the sources and then boost the largely finished materials back home, knowing they were involved in a 100,000+ year project. Harvesting and building remotely at Halo scale, and using the same trick (a stellar ramjet) the original RingWorld was built for to get the smaller rings home. Now collapse or Singularity that civilization at about the 60% point and add another 50,000 years. Newcomers in the region will find wrecked systems, halo structures at various stages of completion, and a few halos either slowly boosting or braking toward the original star. How much of the final ring is in place or buildable with the existing materials is anyone's guess.

I came up with a background where near-future Earth invented FTL but could find no habitable worlds except one Ringworld maybe 50 light-years away. On it are lower-tech humans (obviously brought from Earth between 1 and 3 thousand years ago) and other intelligent species, but also lots of empty lands. The nations of Earth begin exploring, then colonizing it. Bu I never went anywhere further with the idea.

This brings to mind a couple books I read years ago, about an expanding human interstellar community finding a complete and habitable Dyson Shell. The scramble is ON, as multiple factions attempt to exploit the discovery, not really realizing that there is more than enough for everyone, and then more than that. What the main character comes to realize, after discovering two different groups of sophonts clearly in decline, is that the sphere is a flytrap. Unlike Niven's Ring, those who settle into it stop needing anything else. Over its vast history it has taken in and evolutionarily retired multiple starfaring species, and the last book ends with the MC realizing humanity is now *next*.

 

[whartung]

More likely, you come upon a dead, abandoned system with, say, 10 of the large ship "pieces" floating derelict in solar orbit. On the last one (the one with the big number 10 on it) is a sign "This was a silly idea, we're stopping here."