Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Hi Bill, (big snip of the exceptions I expected)
BTL,
Combat Armor and battledress act as vacc suits, but is combat armor - the one I specifically referred to - a good choice for deorbit operations? We know that players can wear vacc suits aboard air/rafts for orbit/deorbit operations. Although it is open-topped, the air/raft must provide some sort of protection. Is it the same with combat armor? I'd say no. We already know your answer.</font>[/QUOTE]You know what my answer is. Well how about this answer instead. MT: TL12 Combat Armor, Armor rating 10. TL 14 Combat Armor, Armor rating 18, and air/raft Armor value 4. I would say that based strictly on that that Combat armor provides superior protection in all circumstances to an air/raft.
Your opinion is based on what? (I would have used CT sources but Striker doesn't rate the air/raft.)
Also, does vacc suit-1 or 0 automatically mean you're familiar and/or competent with unprotected deorbit operations? Again I'd say no and, again, we already know your answer.
Finally, just how transferable are the skills between each? You can wear combat armor without having a vacc suit skill but you can't wear BD without either BD skill or vacc suit skill. Apparently there is some sort of difference. (And, no, most characters do not end up with vacc suit-1 in chargen even with MT's expanded skill base.)
From LBB1
Vacc Suit The individual has been trained in and has experience with use of the standard vacuum suit (Space Suit), including armored battle dress and suits for use on various planetary surfaces in the presence of exotic, corrosive or insidious atmospheres.
It goes on into rules mechanics and modifiers and that part finishes up with.
Battle dress and combat armor
are special forms of armored vacc suit and require at least vacc suit-1 to wear at all.
So as to how transferable the skills are, it is one skill. I just spent quite a bit of time and haven't found a skill that lists orbital insertion of a Grav Vehicle, Ship or any other object. Can you point me to someplace where the skill lists something other than Grav Vehicle and/or air/raft?
As for frequency, in LBB1, on Navy, Marine, Scout and Merchant service skills list, 1 chance in 6. LBB4, Off the bat, provided that you are in a Tl12+ military, 1 chance in 6 of getting Vacc Suit (Army) or Battledress (Marine) as part of basic training. Everytime you roll on the MOS table that chance is there. Protected Forces Training, 2 chances in 3 for Vacc Suit, Shipboard 1 chance in 3, Commando School 1 chance in 3 (BD). (And 1 in 6 on the commando MOS table for BD.) OCS 1 chance in 6 if you are infantry, Marine or Commando. If you go to the Naval Academy (Marine) you have 3 chances in 6 for Vacc Suit.
I'd say the odds were pretty good to come away with at least one level in the skill. Is it guaranteed? No. But after 3-4 terms quite likely.
As for how often this comes up, I suggest you take a look at Supplement 13 Veterans. (Stats listed below.)
MT makes a couple of changes, Marine Infantry gets Vacc Suit instead of Battle Dress. Shipboard service gives you an additional table with a 50% chance for one of the two but it is basically the same.
T20 gives most starting characters the required Feat for Combat Armor, and anyone can choose to have Battle Dress.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Second, I never suggested that they go from orbit directly into combat.
No, but your question certainly suggested it.
But there is little reason that they deploy half a planet away from the target zone.
Which is why I wrote: there is no real reason for a military unit to funnel all it's forces through a starport that may be a hemisphere away from the fighting.
Just because they deploy onto the same continent doesn't mean they will be giving the enemy all that much time to deal with them.
What is a grav-belt's speed at NOE? Remember, "If It Flies, It Dies". You won't be operating your grav assets, be they vehicles or infantry, at high speeds near the enemy because high speeds require higher altitudes than NOE and higher altitudes mean more chances for them to be targeted.</font>[/QUOTE]Depends on your rule system. But in the neighborhood of 200kph for all of them.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Third, Deploying from the Starport and going to a target zone half a planet away, will take the same time for G-Carrier equipped Infantry as it will for Grav Belt Infantry.
Nonsense. Compare and contrast grav vehcile speeds with grav belt speeds. Next, take a 400km trip at 100kph first on a motorcycle, then in a car, and tell me which is more physcially exhausting. Your infantry is going to 'naked' to the physical effects of travelling at a relatively high speed through the atmosphere. That will have consequences.</font>[/QUOTE]Got a rule for that? Air/rafts and G-Carriers in CT have the same speed as Grav Belts. In MT the NOE speed is higher for the G-Carrier and air/raft is higher than the Grav Belt, but the Grav Belt has a higher cruise and top speed. In T20 they are equal.
Wearing Combat Armor, Battle Dress or even a Vacc Suit, by definition shields you from the elements.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... but in most versions of Traveller, excepting CT, you can also build a faster Grav Belt.
Increased speed will only wear your troops out faster.
Sixth, Coming in on Grav Belts out of a combat zone is not the same as marching 8 hours.
See my motorcycle analogy above.</font>[/QUOTE]Again, got a rule citation for that?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As a former Light Infantry Soldier, (oops didn't I mention that I am one of those COTI infantry vets, I am sure I did.)
Ooops, didn't I write combat vets? Let's see: We could ask the actual infantry combat vets... Yes, it seems I did.</font>[/QUOTE]And the practical difference is? I didn't have real bullets being fired at me. But I actually trained under higher intensity than many of our combat veterans actually experienced in combat. (A good principal actually.) All of the combat veterans went through the same training. Further the training I went through and taught, is more like the type of conflict we are discussing instead of what most living combat veterans served through under fire. What we are describing, is mid intensity combat, most living combat veterans served in combat that would be classified as low intensity combat. (Last mid intensity combat in the world that I am aware of was the Iraq-Iran war. 1973 Arab-Israeli, the Thet-Offensive, and the Korean conflict would all qualify though.) That limits our actual list of possible people to discuss this quite a bit. But if you want to apply LIC experience to MIC situations, that is your right, but they will probably rely on the same training that I went through and taught. Good luck with that.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(And BD troops with Grav belts are effectively driving with no load, whether on the ground or using Grav belts.)
My post dealt with non-BD troops.</font>[/QUOTE]And when dealing with Grav Belts the difference is what, exactly? (Rule citation again please.)
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Seventh, Coming down from orbit taking 8 hours, to put you in the neighborhood, is better than landing at the starport, flying NOE for several days to get to the target area.
Which of course is why I wrote: Even if they're operating on a friendly world, there is no real reason for a military unit to funnel all it's forces through a starport that may be a hemisphere away from the fighting.</font>[/QUOTE]However you were commenting on my comments asking why, if the starport is half a world away why you would go through the starport.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am also not saying that would always be practical, but it would definitely be preferable, where practical...
I knew you'd say that, which is why I wrote: (These are going to be general observations, observations that take into account most and not all. You'll be able to come up with specific situations under which the observations won't work. In fact, I'm betting you'll do just that. You won't, however, be able to come up with situations in which they don't work most of the time.)</font>[/QUOTE]Well since the conversation is primarily the distinction between Grav Belt equipped Infantry and Grav APC, Lift Infantry, what is this middle ground you are supposedly holding? They reach the
target at the same time from the same LZ or point of departure. I guess I am missing where you stand here.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... because all of your comments about taking 8 hours is even more evident when taking 4 days.
Which I didn't suggest at all, because I actually wrote: Even if they're operating on a friendly world, there is no real reason for a military unit to funnel all it's forces through a starport that may be a hemisphere away from the fighting.
I also brought this point up, a point you have repeatedly failed to address: However, there is also no real reason for a military unit to spend eight hours dropping nonspecialized troops individually from orbit...</font>[/QUOTE][/qb]
So given the choice between bringing them down using integral grav equipment and landing at a starport half a world away, what is the third alternative?
The kicker here is non-specialized. The rules and descriptions we have across every version point to real differences between vacc suits and combat armor. Even vacc suit skill has it's limits. Simply having a skill level in vacc suit doesn't make you automatically competent in all areas of vacuum activity; there is a zero-gee environment skill for instance. Simply wearing combat armor, for which there is no skill, doesn't automatically give you vacc suit-1 either.
Actually you have this backwards. Your
no skill is clearly incorrect. Vacc Suit 1 is
required for use with Combat armor. (See citations above.) Further Vacc Suit skill, Battle Dress skill, and Zero-G combat are the only skills in CT that have anything to do with Zero-G or being in space.
Zero-G Combat:
The individual has been trained to fight in a 2ero-G environment.
Now the rule mechanics, talk about compensation of recoil, and swinging of weapons.
MT does have a Zero-G environment skill. It deals with recoil, swinging things and orienting yourself in Zero-G. But how does that relate to use of a Grav vehicle or Grav Belt? In that situation you are not in freefall you are conducting a powered descent.
Also, while it seems that some versions of combat armor can act like a vacc suit, but it doesn't necessarily follow that combat armor is exactly like a vacc suit. Comabt armor doesn't automatically require PLSS units like every version of Traveller vacc suit does.
Bill, what version of the rules are you talking about? What Combat Armor, or Battle Dress is something other than an armored (and in the case of BD, powered) Vacc Suit? Are you even talking about Traveller?
LBB1:
Combat Armor (Cr20000; TL 11 1: Combat armor is a complete vacc-suit-like array of metal and synthetic armor. Combat armor is strictly military and not available on the open market; it is issued to troop units and elite mercenary battalions.
Before combat armor can be wocn, the user must have vacc suit skill-1 or
better.
LBB4:
Combat Armor: Similar in construction to battle dress, combat armor provides comparable
Protection and (unlike the combat environment suit) may be pressurized for use in vacuum or
conditions of extremely low air pressure. Combat armor dampens heat signature in the same
fashion as the combat environment suit. Combat armor is not powered and thus troops so
equipped may not fire high energy weapons designed exclusively for use with battle dress
(PGMP-13 and FGMP-14).
Combat armor is available at tech level 11, costs CR 20000 and is treated as battle dress
when fired at. At tech level 12, combat armor is available in chameleon configuration for
CR 25000
MT Imperial Encyclopedia:
Combat armor is a complete vacc-suit-like array of metal and synthetic armor. Combat armor is strictly military and not available on the open market; it is issued to troop units and elite mercenary battalions.
T20 THB:
Combat armor is a complete vacc-suit-like array of metal and synthetic armor. Combat armor is strictly military and not available on the open market; it is issued to troop units and elite mercenary battalions.
Starting to see a pattern here?
Your next reply will point out you're 'only' talking about merc units, how those units will only hire personnel with the additional skill levels required, etc., etc., etc. I will save time by directing you in advance to CT's Veterans supplement and the many mercenary hirelings detailed therein. Please note just how many have vacc suit skills, yet all somehow can wear combat armor.
YM will of course V.
Have fun,
Bill
Actually my reply, questions what game you are referring to, because it doesn't look like Traveller. Considering how many posts you have slammed T20 as "Not Real Traveller." Are you now saying CT and MT are also not real Traveller?
Further not one person in Supplement 13 Veterans, lists Combat armor, In fact nobody in Supplement 13 has any assigned equipment. However approximately 75% of the listed "Veterans" once you reach Tl12+ are listed as Vacc Suit qualified.
