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Mercenary and Military Unit Tactics

Originally posted by jec10:
Employee 2-4601 what is the cost of your unit in CT/Striker terms? Seeing as how the whole point of the discussion is cost-effectiveness we need to know how much your platoon costs and the breakdown. (I guess you'll have to design the enclosed air/rafts with Striker - or are you using one of the designs you've already posted elsewhere?)
I'm currently in the process of designing the unit. The whole costs would be posted eventually.

---

The Grav Sled I'll be using in my platoon design is the following Striker design:

Generic Grav Sled (Tech Level 13)
The vehicle has a crew of 1 (Driver). Height: 2m. Width: 2m. Length: 5m. Total volume: 20m^3 (approximately 1.5 ship dtons). Weight: 18.972 tons. Cargo Space: 11m^3. Passengers: 1 besides the Driver. Price: Cr284,622 (round to MCr0.28 when including in a ship design).

Movement: Maximum, 600kph/500cm; cruise, 4500kph/375cm; NOE, 150kph/125cm.

Armor: Front, 12; deck, belly, sides and rear, 8.

Target Size DMs: +2 low.

Equipment: 5,000-power radio; searchlight; sealed environment with life support for 2.

Power: 3 megawatt fusion power plant consumes 4.5 liters fuel per hour; fuel capacity is 920 liters, enough for 204 hours (approximately 8.5 days). Grav generators produce 1.58 Gs.

Weapon: None installed.

---

EDIT: From another thread, it appears that the BattleDress would have a limited life-support duration (6 to 48 hours, depending on ruleset). So I guess that we might want to create passenger-type air/rafts to carry the troops between battles. The big difference between this approach and a mechanized platoon would be that the BD mercs will dismount prior to entering the combat zone, and won't use their air/rafts in combat. This would be similar to how light infantry was (is?) carried by trucks.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... the BD mercs will dismount prior to entering the combat zone, ....
if the enemy obliges by remaining in a known combat zone. </font>[/QUOTE]They do in video games - what more evidence do you need? ;)
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... the BD mercs will dismount prior to entering the combat zone, ....
if the enemy obliges by remaining in a known combat zone. </font>[/QUOTE]So you see the problem (from a logistics POV) of "pure" light-infantry on a world with an unreathable atmosphere: you'll need pressuized vehicles in your vicinity since your life-support lasts only 24 hours or so, and since you'll probably want your troops to unsuit in regular interval.

Ofcourse, in a world where most of the population would be in arcologies, you'll only need a transport to the target arcology; the type of transport you'll need will depend on whether or not you're dealing with an enemy holding the entire arcology (as in an enemy antion on a balkanized world) or just holding parts of it (as in a hostage situation or partial takeover by whatever group) - in the former you'll need a combat craft (to protect against defensive fire by the target arcology and/or interception craft); in the latter you could probably take a civilian or paramilitary transport.
 
Volume-wise, 1-dton=14m^3. Striker assumes that a metric ton of cargo fills 1m^3, so 1-dton=14 metric tons.
 
Actually the carrying capacity of a Grav belt does include plenty of lift capability for extra lifesupport. You can go 24 hours, even in MT with the limited battery life of the Grav belt by carrying additional batteries, and lifesupport and still having plenty of capacity for ammo, weapons armor, supplies and the infantryman. According to the rules you can't go more than 24 hours in an APC either. (No Small Craft cabins.)

So while you might want some logistics vehicles, that you can plug into to recharge, top off your food and ammo, you have no real reason to worry about battle taxis.
 
One other stupid point. Why would you, with either Grav APC's or Grav Belts, Land at the starport and travel halfway around the world to your target. Grav APC's and Grav Belts both can reach or descend from orbit.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One other stupid point. Why would you, with either Grav APC's or Grav Belts, Land at the starport and travel halfway around the world to your target. Grav APC's and Grav Belts both can reach or descend from orbit.
Could be several reasons.

Law (Imperial or local) may require all off-world traffic to go through starport customs.

The ticket could require contacting the employer at the safe neutral starport.

Sure grav can get from orbit to the ground* but it's very slow and while the enemy on the ground is way out of your personal weapons you're a falling duck for their ground defenses.

* Though my interpretation of the description is that grav can get you to orbit but there's nothing about it being suitable for reentry.

If a grav belt were suitable for personal vacc-suit reentry then why have the personal reentry kits with the thrusters and ablative reentry dish? The grav (or parachute) is only used for final descent after the dish is ejected once you're in atmo.

There's also the drop capsule option for getting to the ground from orbit without a small craft, which again seems to point to not being able to just step out an airlock with your grav belt and suit and float down to the ground.

What's more it's pretty tricky without a lot of skill even with the drop capsule or reentry kit and you could easily end up losing a lot of your greener troops or have them scattered all over the hemisphere.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One other stupid point. Why would you, with either Grav APC's or Grav Belts, Land at the starport and travel halfway around the world to your target. Grav APC's and Grav Belts both can reach or descend from orbit.
Could be several reasons.

Law (Imperial or local) may require all off-world traffic to go through starport customs.

The ticket could require contacting the employer at the safe neutral starport.

Sure grav can get from orbit to the ground* but it's very slow and while the enemy on the ground is way out of your personal weapons you're a falling duck for their ground defenses.

* Though my interpretation of the description is that grav can get you to orbit but there's nothing about it being suitable for reentry.

If a grav belt were suitable for personal vacc-suit reentry then why have the personal reentry kits with the thrusters and ablative reentry dish? The grav (or parachute) is only used for final descent after the dish is ejected once you're in atmo.

There's also the drop capsule option for getting to the ground from orbit without a small craft, which again seems to point to not being able to just step out an airlock with your grav belt and suit and float down to the ground.

What's more it's pretty tricky without a lot of skill even with the drop capsule or reentry kit and you could easily end up losing a lot of your greener troops or have them scattered all over the hemisphere.
</font>[/QUOTE]A Grav belt is more expensive than the re entry kits. They have the same performance as an air/raft, or G-Carrier. So they can reach orbit, but can't go back down? That sounds like an extremely limited and pointless capability then.
 
One other stupid point. Why would you, with either Grav APC's or Grav Belts, Land at the starport and travel halfway around the world to your target. Grav APC's and Grav Belts both can reach or descend from orbit.
maybe the local authorities are trying to maintain a facade of normality with the imperium. maybe the world is balkanized and the other governments would object to any non-regular arrivals. maybe there's an opposing merc unit present and they already have some control over the intended operational area. maybe the client wants to ensure that the mercs' only way off-world is under his control. maybe the client wants the mercs to look like on-world veterans rather than off-world mercs. maybe the people have weird ideas about environmentalism and don't want space ships cavorting at will around their biosphere. who knows. it's really not a stupid point.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
A Grav belt is more expensive than the re entry kits. They have the same performance as an air/raft, or G-Carrier. So they can reach orbit, but can't go back down? That sounds like an extremely limited and pointless capability then.
Reentry kits are cheaper partly because they are mostly one use items.

I agree it is extremely limited, but not exactly pointless. I think it was always meant as a game heroic. "Oh no, we are stranded on the planet without a way to get off!" "Quick everybody put on the vacc suits and let's burn out the antigrav on this air/raft to get to orbit and eva back to the ship."

It takes hours to make orbit using antigrav. Why? Because the power to lift is in direct relation to the gravity being countered. By the time you reach low orbit your thrust is almost zero. Trying to go down you have little thrust to make a controlled reentry and will burn up (if there's atmo) and/or build up too much speed to brake before hitting the ground.

But then that seems to be just my opinion. Everyone else seems to think that there's no reason for small craft and streamlining and that any idiot with a vacc-suit and grav belt, or an air/raft, or an unstreamlined spaceship, can just float peacefully down to the ground without a care in the world.
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Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One other stupid point. Why would you, with either Grav APC's or Grav Belts, Land at the starport and travel halfway around the world to your target. Grav APC's and Grav Belts both can reach or descend from orbit.
BTL,

For pretty much the same reasons all infantry in the Real World aren't paratroopers; Time, Training/Cost, and Enemy Capabilities.

(These are going to be general observations, observations that take into account most and not all. You'll be able to come up with specific situations under which the observations won't work. In fact, I'm betting you'll do just that. You won't, however, be able to come up with situations in which they don't work most of the time.)

TIME: For an air/raft, time to orbit/deorbit is the world's UPP size in hours. Grav belts are the same. That's straight out of Death Station. We're looking at an eight hour 'drop' on a Earth-like world.

Grav vehicles mostly certainly do it quicker, but the poor bloody infantry will spend hours 'floating' down. Hours, as we'll see later, in which they're be vulnerable to all sorts of nastiness.

Those troops will also have to be wearing vacc suits for most of their trip; combat armor is not a vacc suit remember.

Jump troops are the exception to this, as we'll see later.

We could ask the actual infantry combat vets here at COTI what they think about an eight hour 'march' with a battle immediately afterwards. I'm pretty sure I know their answer however. I'm also pretty sure the enemy could get up to all sorts of things doing that time too; as we'll see later.

Training/Cost: We've already seen that the infantry will have to wear vacc suits during your proposed 'orbital march to contact'. What else will they need to wear and learn? Are we going to amr and train all our troops to do this? What will the 'washout' rate then be?

Of course, we can speed up the drop with all sorts of specialized equipment like re-entry kits and the like. Our troops will have to be supplied with that and be trained on it too. The troops that do get that equipment and training are called jump troops. (Funny how that worked out, isn't it?) Whether they wear battledress or not, jump troops have the equipment and skills to drop from orbit safely and quickly enough to matter.

Enemy Capabilities: Generally speaking in high-tech OTU combat; If It Flies, It Dies. Grav vehicles generally operate at NOE, limiting their speed. Even grav-belted troopers, as you yourself have pointed out, normally limit themselves to small hops and dashes. Get too high in the air and the enemy is going to slag you.

How much fun to you think an enemy would have with troops floating down on gravbelts from orbit for eight hours? Grav vehicles at least have armor, speed, and countermeasures. If we give infantry some of those advantages we're back to - surprise - jump troops.

Also, how much trouble can an enemy get up to in the time it takes to deploy from orbit? You've identified an enemy, ordered your drop, and the troops involved show up eight hours later. Will the enemy still even be there?


Troops could very well deorbit by gravbelt and they could very well deorbit by gravbelt right into combat. However, a more likely and more normal situation would have troops - and vehicles - using their full grav speeds for strategic mobility. They'd deorbit or move between theatres along safe/protected routes at high speeds, and the altitudes those speeds require. Once in theatre, they'll go to 'ground' within a certain reaction distance of suspected enemy forces. Then, when their presence in required, they can move to contact within a short enough time to catch the enemy.

Even if they're operating on a friendly world, there is no real reason for a military unit to funnel all it's forces through a starport that may be a hemisphere away from the fighting. However, there is also no real reason for a military unit to spend eight hours dropping nonspecialized troops individually from orbit directly into a battle.

YMMV.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One other stupid point. Why would you, with either Grav APC's or Grav Belts, Land at the starport and travel halfway around the world to your target. Grav APC's and Grav Belts both can reach or descend from orbit.
You are assuming that all missions carried by that unit would be short hit-and-run raids taking a day or two at most, not an all-out war or any other kind of a prolonged ticket.

In fact, this describes a Marine unit quite well - most Traveller-style Marines are based on a ship, transported to their target by drop-capsules of small-craft, do their job, and get out in the matter of hours (in most cases). So "pure" BD units - especially jump-troop ones - would be quite common in TL13+ Marine Corps.

But what about Mercs hired out as spearhead units for lower-tech armies in more prolonged military actions? In that case you'll need logistic vehicles, and you'll probably need to unsuit somewhere every few days for comfort and morale reasons. So a "pure" BD-infantry unit would probably be a specialist unit - probably a rapid-assault or smash-and-grab specialist unit.
 
Hi Bill,
Actually Combat Armor and Battledress are Vacsuits. (And are defined as such in LBB1, LBB3, LBB4, MT Player's Guide, MT Encyclopedia, TNE rulebook, and the T20 rulebook. (My guess would be the T4 and GT rulebook also state such.) In fact the skill to use both in CT and MT is Vacsuit. (Though Battledress skill is required in both CT and MT to use Battledress with a PGMP-13 or FGMP-14, otherwise there is no distinction and BD skill can be substituted in those two rulesets for vacsuit.)

Second, I never suggested that they go from orbit directly into combat. But there is little reason that they deploy half a planet away from the target zone. Just because they deploy onto the same continent doesn't mean they will be giving the enemy all that much time to deal with them.

Third, Deploying from the Starport and going to a target zone half a planet away, will take the same time for G-Carrier equipped Infantry as it will for Grav Belt Infantry. (Including stops as G-Carriers aren't set up for in excess of 24 hour travel either.) Some Grav vehicles are faster, but in most versions of Traveller, excepting CT, you can also build a faster Grav Belt.

Fourth, Most characters, in most versions of the Traveller rules, muster out with both Vacsuit skill and Grav vehicle (air/raft) skill. Depending on the ruleset, that includes Grav-Belt (though Grav Belt may be at -1) and always includes combat armor, so if you are hiring veterans instead of farmers, training is less of an issue. What you will need is the Battledress training if you intend to use battledress. In CT and MT this is only required for your PGMP/FGMP gunners for BD equipped troops, everyone else only needs Vacsuit (which they are likely to already have). (In T20 everyone wearing BD does need the Battledress feat, I am not sure about TNE or T4.)

Fifth, this does not equate to paratroopers but light infantry, which is quite a bit more prevalent than Paratroopers, in today's world.
In fact world wide in today's world I would say that Mech Troops and Light Troops are about a 50-50 split. (On a smaller scale, in the US Army, Mech Infantry and Light Infantry are about evenly split.)

Sixth, Coming in on Grav Belts out of a combat zone is not the same as marching 8 hours. As a former Light Infantry Soldier, (oops didn't I mention that I am one of those COTI infantry vets, I am sure I did.) there is a huge difference between marching with a full pack and being transported with a light load, driving, or even marching with a light load. (And BD troops with Grav belts are effectively driving with no load, whether on the ground or using Grav belts.)

Seventh, Coming down from orbit taking 8 hours, to put you in the neighborhood, is better than landing at the starport, flying NOE for several days to get to the target area. (The comment was halfway around the world, that same size 8 world that is in excess of 20,000 KM which at 200kph NOE flight is in excess of 4 days flight time, and the rules state that any vehicle occupied for more than 24 hours requires small craft cabins for all occupants (CT) Or bunks for crew and Small craft cabins for passengers (MT and most others). I have yet to see a Grav APC or Tank with so much as a bunk. So call it 5-6 days overland travel to get "halfway around the world." I think an 8 hour trip down to put you on the same continent is preferable, where practical. Again there are faster grav vehicles and for some versions of the rules an air/raft isn't that fast, but you have to travel at the speed of your slowest unit and typical situations that is a decent average speed. I am also not saying that would always be practical, but it would definitely be preferable, where practical, because all of your comments about taking 8 hours is even more evident when taking 4 days.

Personally I would prefer assault landing craft in the 30-50 ton range but those are expensive and if you are carrying lots of vehicles they need to be bigger or slower. But assault landing craft use is preferable to traveling across country or from orbit using either Grav Belts or Grav Vehicles. I was trying to avoid that additional factor as they also tend to be armed and armored and can provide quite a bit of fire support, which severely complicates the Lift Infantry vs. Light Infantry conversation. But yes, I would build a Mercenary unit with 1-3 (depending on the overall size of the unit) of those per platoon, if the funding was there. I would actually buy those before investing in Grav APCs.
 
Here I start with what might be called the "dream unit" IMTU (CT/Striker) which is a mixed Imperial Marine platoon:

2x Trepida-II Grav Tank = MCr 10.976
2x3=6 personnel
2x19.49=38.98dT

2x Imperial Marine Grav APC = MCr 11.218
2x(3+8)=22 personnel
2x42.86=85.71dT

16x Battle Dress+Chameleon surface+100 Power helmet radio=MCr 5.6208
12xFGMP-14=MCr 1.98
4xRAM Auto-GL=MCr 0.012

Totals: MCr 29.8068
124.69dT

The platoon has two grav tanks and two grav-APCs. The grav-APCs each deploy a Battle Dress infantry squad of eight soldiers in two fire teams. Each fire team has three FGMP-14 and one RAM Auto-GL (which in Striker at least adequately fulfils the role of SAW at higher tech levels while providing the punch to go through armoured targets). I assume that the remaining bunks in the transport ship are used for mechanics and medics.

Trepida-II Grav Tank TL-14
The vehicle has a crew of 3 (commander, gunner, driver). It mounts a TL-14 Fusion-Z Gun in a remote turret, with direct fire control, and a coax TL-14 10MW pulse laser (16 lens) with point defence fire control, and a TL-8 7mm Gatling gun with one 5000-rnd hopper.
Height: 1.3m (+0.6m turret), Width: 5.8m, Length: 10.5m, Weight: 272.9t loaded, Price: Cr 5,488,497
Movement: Max, 1080kmph (900cm); Cruise 810kmph (675cm); NOE, 180kph (150cm).
Movement effects on fire: no effect
Armour: Hull Front, 79; Sides, 63; Rear, 50; Deck, 48 & Belly, 48; Turret front, 79; Sides, 63; Rear, 50; Deck, 48.
Target Size DMs: Low+3, High+1
Equipment: 5000 Power radio; 1000km maser commo; TL-14 laser sensor (2+); 50xPrismatic aerosol; 1xRadio Direction Finder[+10]; 100 Power targeting ladar; 1xRadar Direction Finder[+11]; Image Enhancement; Thermal Image; Extensive ECM; Map Box; Battle Computer; Sealed Environment with life support.
Power: 126MW fusion power plant; fuel capacity is 5000 litres, enough for 26.46 hours; grav generators provide .98 G's.
Weapons: Fusion-Z Gun as per Book 3.
TL14 10MW Pulse Laser (16 lens) Point Defence fire Control, DF-1.25/2.5/12.5km, Pen-25/16/10, HB:+4, Sig:+0, Tgts:8
TL8 7mm Gatling Gun as per Book 3.

Imperial Marine Grav-APC as per Striker Book 3. (RP-Y gun; missile launcher firing nuclear tipped missiles)
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Aside from lacking serious suppressive fire capability, that works. But CT doesn't have a high tech GPMG. (Thanks to the Ram grenades it will have decent ranged, anti-armor capability.) The PGMP-13 will mess up someone's day.
Concerning my Gauss Machinegun, I think that I could easily add one to my platoon (one per fireteam); I don't think that an assistant machinegunner would be needed, though, as with the carrying capacity of a BD/GravBelt trooper you could carry quite alot of reloads as well as deal with recoil and aiming.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Aside from lacking serious suppressive fire capability, that works. But CT doesn't have a high tech GPMG. (Thanks to the Ram grenades it will have decent ranged, anti-armor capability.) The PGMP-13 will mess up someone's day.
Concerning my Gauss Machinegun, I think that I could easily add one to my platoon (one per fireteam); I don't think that an assistant machinegunner would be needed, though, as with the carrying capacity of a BD/GravBelt trooper you could carry quite alot of reloads as well as deal with recoil and aiming. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the transition from MT to Striker for weapons is fairly simple. There is, it was pointed out to me, a pair of Gauss Machineguns, (And some other high tech machineguns) in Challange issue 64.

I wonder if vehicles transition as easily. Since I recently got Striker I should take a look.
 
I am curious if a Speeder or Grav Tank could tow Grav belted infantry. (Since they add no weight, and should be able to compensate for their own drag rendering towing them aerodynamically neutral.)
 
I have no idea what makes you think that grav belted infantry can compensate for their own drag. Generally speaking, the speed at which they can compensate for their own drag is equal to their max unassisted speed.

In any case, sure, you can drag grav belt infantry behind another grav vehicle. At high speeds it might well be uncomfortable or dangerous, however; at 600 mph (typical max velocity for a grav tank in GT) drag force would be upwards of a ton, which in combination with turbulence could result in some pretty serious injuries from collisions.
 
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