Mercenary and Military Unit Tactics

[mbrinkhues]

GT is an officially licenced product just like T20 so it is an OTU as much as any other. And most weights etc are well withing that of the other systems.

If BD and CA give the same protection than BD has no use. The doubling of strength is not worth almost six times the price.

And the need for skill has nothing to do with bulk (My 1980s Protective West was bulkier than a breastplate) but with flexibility. The West can bend along the mid-line between stomach and chest as can Jack (Soft leather), Chain and Reflec (Bodysuit) armor. A Dragoon breastplate can not and I am not sure that a BD or CA can. Add in shoulder guards, leg/lower body armor etc. that restrict movement and I'd say the "Plate" style armors need additonal skill/training.

In GT this is within the various skills needed for a soldier (for unpowered) and Battledress (for powered) armor. T20 has the Armor proficiencies. CT/MT/TNE OTOH are "skill light" systems and lack/reduce needed skills.

But just because a system does not require something does not mean common sense should not assume soldiers need to be specially trained to use special armors.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
GT is an officially licenced product just like T20 so it is an OTU as much as any other. And most weights etc are well withing that of the other systems.

Actually GT is officially Alternate Traveller Universe. (It even said so on FFE's Website when it listed all of the versions of Traveller.) If it was OTU then it would not be set during the Rebellion without the Rebellion. The Trade system would be the same principal and UWP would read the same. That doesn't mean that SJG doesn't have a license to produce Traveller material. GT does not translate well to other versions of Traveller because of all that.

If BD and CA give the same protection than BD has no use. The doubling of strength is not worth almost six times the price.

I agree with you on this, but it has always been so.

And the need for skill has nothing to do with bulk (My 1980s Protective West was bulkier than a breastplate) but with flexibility. The West can bend along the mid-line between stomach and chest as can Jack (Soft leather), Chain and Reflec (Bodysuit) armor. A Dragoon breastplate can not and I am not sure that a BD or CA can. Add in shoulder guards, leg/lower body armor etc. that restrict movement and I'd say the "Plate" style armors need additonal skill/training.

And my 1991 Body armor definitely restricted movement, though not all that much, added weight and was a general pain in the butt for getting in and out of vehicles, camo nets, etc. Of course at 2m, 100Kg, most things aren't made for me anyway and the added bulk definitely required some thinking about.

Well the pictures of it show joints allowing movement. Further the rules do not restrict movement wearing either in CT or MT. (T20 does restrict movement by reducing your Dex bonus because of certain kinds of armor, but it applies to virtually all armor.) But of course, not having a set around here anywhere, we don't know for sure either way. The requirement for training with Vacc Suits, Combat Armor and Battle Dress are as likely to have to do with making sure it is sealed properly for Vacuum operation than anything else.

In GT this is within the various skills needed for a soldier (for unpowered) and Battledress (for powered) armor. T20 has the Armor proficiencies. CT/MT/TNE OTOH are "skill light" systems and lack/reduce needed skills.

But just because a system does not require something does not mean common sense should not assume soldiers need to be specially trained to use special armors.

And just because you think you know how this stuff should work, does not mean you actually know how it does. For example, how much maintenance a TL13 item might require, or how easy it is to operate.

For those kinds of assumptions, that is why we have the rules.

 

[mbrinkhues]

The ATU of GT refers to the undead Imp, not to the rules.

And for the rest, the rules are IMHO the problem. We have no less than six sets, four of them from official sources (GDW / Marc W. Miller) that interpret Battledress vs. Combat Armor differently.

Of those at least three (T20/GT/TNE) have very limited duration for BD and GravBelts (in that case MT/TNE/GT)

While BD/CA are stated as "can be used as a vac suit" no duration is given in MT. Since MT is big on the life support stuff and times that can easily be interpreted as "need any of the PLSS attached"

Some rules restrict BD/CA to "states and ELITE mercenary BATALLIONS" (MT, Player P74, Stress by me) some don't. If they do, the stuff is out of reach for most player characters.

Etc, etc....

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
The ATU of GT refers to the undead Imp, not to the rules.

And for the rest, the rules are IMHO the problem. We have no less than six sets, four of them from official sources (GDW / Marc W. Miller) that interpret Battledress vs. Combat Armor differently.

Of those at least three (T20/GT/TNE) have very limited duration for BD and GravBelts (in that case MT/TNE/GT)

While BD/CA are stated as "can be used as a vac suit" no duration is given in MT. Since MT is big on the life support stuff and times that can easily be interpreted as "need any of the PLSS attached"

Some rules restrict BD/CA to "states and ELITE mercenary BATALLIONS" (MT, Player P74, Stress by me) some don't. If they do, the stuff is out of reach for most player characters.

Etc, etc....

You know what? Forget it. It is like either trying to discuss the ability of a Blackhawk Helicopter to fly with Leonardo Divinci, or your opinion on which rule set to use.

I give up.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
You know what? Forget it. It is like either trying to discuss the ability of a Blackhawk Helicopter to fly with Leonardo Divinci, or your opinion on which rule set to use.

I give up.

I would point out that you brought up ruleset vs ruleset too. GT design sequences are broadly comparable to Striker, MT vehicle design, FF&S, or FF&S2. They are very different from T20; CT had no design system applicable to personal equipment and just made up numbers that sounded good.

 

[BetterThanLife]

OK. As promised. Technically only TL12 for everything other than RAM grenades and Rockets. If allowed to upgrade to TL13, going away from standard equipment the Grav belts could add TL13 Avionics and at NOE be as fast any other TL13 vehicle. Further upgrading to TL13 batteries decreases the mass of the batteries and the units actually get lighter for minimal cost difference.

Standard Infantry Load. Grav Belt + additional Batteries to allow for 24 hours continuous operations. TL12 Combat Armor with camoline coating. Gauss Rifle, 9 magazines for Gauss Rifle, 12 RAM HEAT grenades, 8 RAM HE Grenades, (Mix can change depending on expected resistance.) Hand Computer, Combi-LI/IR goggles as part of HUD in helmet. LR comms, inertial locator.

Machine Gunner. Substitute Gauss LMG (Challenge Magazine issue 64) and 9 mags for Gauss Rifle, Magazines and Ram grenades.

Vehicle Crews: No grav belt or spare batteries, otherwise same as infantrymen.

HQ Section:
Platoon Leader. (O2) As infantryman.
Platoon Sergeant (E7) As infantryman.
Medic (E5) As infantryman.

3 Squads each organized as follows.
Fireteam A
Squad Leader (E6) As infantryman.
Rifleman (E1-E2) As infantryman.
Rifleman/Combatlifesaver (E3) As infantryman.
Machine gunner (E2)

Fireteam B
Team Leader (E5) As Infantryman.
Rifleman (E1-E2) As infantryman.
Rifleman (E1-E2) As infantryman.
Machine gunner (E2)

Machine gun section.
Section Sergeant (E6) as Vehicle Crew + Venery Police Speeder (101 Vehicles)
Speeder Pilot (E3) as vehicle Crew + Venery Police Speeder
Speeder Pilot (E3) as vehicle Crew + Venery Police Speeder
Speeder Pilot (E3) as vehicle Crew + Venery Police Speeder

Armor Section:
Striker Grav Tank (101 Vehicles)
Section Sergeant (E6) As vehicle Crew
Driver (E2) As vehicle Crew.

Striker Grav Tank
Tank Commander (E4) As vehicle Crew
Driver (E2) As vehicle Crew.

Logistics/Fire Support Section:
Clerk (E3) Driver As vehicle crew.
Armorer (E4) Gunner As vehicle crew.
Kuum Grav APC removing troop seats.
TL13 10 tube remote 12CM MRL 50 reloads, and platoon supplies.

Supply Clerk (E3)Driver As vehicle crew.
Maintenance Sergeant (E5) Gunner As vehicle crew.
Kuum Grav APC removing troop seats.
TL13 10 tube remote 12CM MRL 50 reloads, and platoon supplies.

Total cost, one load of ammo, before discount for quantity purchase of standard equipment, but including things like Pressure tents and other miscellaneous supplies. MCr36.4

Given a choice and their own Mercenary Cruiser, I would dump the APC for Assault landing craft. This unit fits on a 600 ton Javelin Mercenary cruiser without using any of the Cargo capacity on the ship. The whole unit fits in two 30 ton assault boats. (Once you lose the APCs.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

For indoor operations the machine gun section and the armor section form two teams of two machine guns each using LRF Gauss Machine guns (Challenge Magazine issue 64). The Logistics teams form 2 Sniper teams.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I am also going to point out that the virtually all weapons that will give you a low penetration result against TL12+ Combat Armor or Battle Dress in MT, will also get you low pen results on most APCs. Anything that will get you a high pen result on Tl14+ Combat armor will get you a high pen result on most APC and low pen result on almost anything else.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
I am also going to point out that the virtually all weapons that will give you a low penetration result against TL12+ Combat Armor or Battle Dress in MT, will also get you low pen results on most APCs.

The penetration rules in MT were...odd. Mostly because they confused geometric and logarithmic scaling.

 

[jec10]

Here is my urban combat unit (I don't have Megatraveller/101 vehicles so its CT/Striker):

3x infantry squads each mounted on a "Mace" 8x8 wheeled APC. Each squad consists of a vehicle team of three personnel, and two four-man fireteams. Vehicle crew wear combat environment suits and carry an autopistol. Each fireteam consists of three personnel armed with Gauss Rifles and one person armed with a PGMP-12. All wear TL12 combat armour with a chameleon coating and a 50-power helmet radio. One person in each squad is a trained assault pioneer and can use demolition charges carried in the APC.

PGMP-12 gunners carry only the weapon and its powerpack.
Regular troopers carry a Gauss Rifle, 6 clips ammo, 4 RAM grenades; light amplif goggles.
A squad leader carries a Gauss Rifle, 6 clips ammo, 4 RAM grenades, light amplif goggles, a TL13 map box.

"Mace" 8x8 wheeled APC (TL13)
The vehicle has a crew of 3 (commander, driver and gunner) and carries 8 passengers. It mounts a 3cm 1-brl hypervelocity autocannon and a TL11 4cm RAM Auto-GL in a remote turret, with direct fire control. 2700 rounds of 3cm ammunition are carried and 400 RAM grenades.
Height: 1.7m (+0.8m remote turret), Width: 3.5m, Length: 7m, Weight: 54.8t, Price: Cr 550,663; Total Volume: 46.45m3
Movement: Road, 184kmph (153cm); X-country, 37kmph (31cm).
Movement effects on fire: Nil
Armour: Chassis & turret Front, 45; Sides, 36; Rear, 29; Deck & Belly, 21.
Target Size DMs: Low+2; High +1
Equipment: Laser sensor (3+); 50 bottles prismatic aerosol; 5000 Power radio; Basic ECM; Map Box; Image Enhancement; Thermal Image; Sealed Environment with life support for 10.
Power: 3MW fusion power plant consumes 405 litres of fuel per hour; fuel capacity is 500 litres, enough for 111 hours.
Weapon: TL11 RAM Auto-GL as listed in Book 3.
TL13 3cm 1-brl AC: DF-3/4/5.5km; Sig DM+1; AFB +4/+3/+1; Tgts-8; Ammo: 0.8kg; HE-6/-/- Cr4; KEAP-22/20/18 Cr8; HEAP-21 Cr6

The platoon commander and platoon sergeant are individually based and are equipped the same as the squad leaders. They each ride in an air/raft with a driver/commo specialist (equipped as per vehicle crew).
There is an unarmed medic (wearing combat environment suit) who rides with either.
T-Y-C Iskra (Russian for "Spark") Open Air/Raft (Tech Level 9)
The vehicle has a crew of 1 (Driver). Height: 1.5m. Width: 2.5m. Length: 4m. Total volume: 15m^3 (approximately 1 ship dtons). Weight: 10.94 tons. Cargo Space: 3m^3. Passengers: 3 besides the Driver. Price: Cr249,983 (round to MCr0.25 when including in a ship design).

Movement: Maximum, 420/350cm; cruise, 315kph/263cm; NOE, 105kph/88cm.

Movement Effect on Fire: Standard (?).

Armor: Front and rear, 6; all others, 4.

Target Size DMs: +0 high, +1 low.

Equipment: 5,000-power radio; passive IR; light amplification; map box.

Power: 2 megawatt fusion power plant consumes 1.5 liters fuel per hour; fuel capacity is 1,350 liters, enough for 37.5 days. Grav generators produce 1.37 Gs.

Weapon: None installed.

There is a mechanic (equipped as per vehicle crew).
There is a supply sergeant (equipped as per vehicle crew) who drives a ground truck.
TL8 Heavy Utility Truck

Length 12m Width: 4m Height: 3m
Volume: 144m3 Displacement: 10.3dtns Weight: 143.6547 tonnes
Price: 17,568 Cr

Armour: 0 (All Faces)

Target Size Modifier: +5 Low, No High Hits

Movement: Road Speed = 55kph, Cross-Country = 3kph,
Power to Weight Ratio = 4, Ground Pressure = 7

Movement Effects on Fire: N/A

Power: 0.6MW MHD Turbine consuming 180 litres / hour. Fuel Capacity = 1080 litres. Endurance: 6 hours

Equipment: Seats for driver and passenger, sealed environment and life-support for two, headlights, 100km radio, Cargo = 100m3 / 100tns

Crew: 1 (Driver)

Weaponry: None Fitted

TOTALS:
40 personnel
MCr 3.0975
24.04dT

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
I am also going to point out that the virtually all weapons that will give you a low penetration result against TL12+ Combat Armor or Battle Dress in MT, will also get you low pen results on most APCs.

The penetration rules in MT were...odd. Mostly because they confused geometric and logarithmic scaling. </font>[/QUOTE]They may be odd, but Striker doesn't work out that much different. The big difference is that armored vehicles use an average instead of individual faces. Armor values for body armor were the same and if you take the average armor they are also about the same. (Though there aren't many vehicles detailed with the Striker rules.) Penetration values, for small arms are the same as are the larger vehicle weapons. The small caliber vehicle weapons, (under 80mm) armor penetration values went down.

The reason I chose MT was because the selection was more complete, most people have the rules and Michael was complaining that a custom designed grav belt or custom Battle Dress would be unbalancing.

Personally I think the Vehicle rules in T20 are better thought out and better balanced. (And with the Traveller's Aides, are about as well covered.)

 

[jec10]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
OK. As promised.

Total cost, one load of ammo, before discount for quantity purchase of standard equipment, but including things like Pressure tents and other miscellaneous supplies. MCr36.4

Given a choice and their own Mercenary Cruiser, I would dump the APC for Assault landing craft. This unit fits on a 600 ton Javelin Mercenary cruiser without using any of the Cargo capacity on the ship. The whole unit fits in two 30 ton assault boats. (Once you lose the APCs.)

What is the total dton?

I assume you are losing the tanks, and the speeders as well as the APCs to fit on the ship with no cargo space?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by jec10:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
OK. As promised.

Total cost, one load of ammo, before discount for quantity purchase of standard equipment, but including things like Pressure tents and other miscellaneous supplies. MCr36.4

Given a choice and their own Mercenary Cruiser, I would dump the APC for Assault landing craft. This unit fits on a 600 ton Javelin Mercenary cruiser without using any of the Cargo capacity on the ship. The whole unit fits in two 30 ton assault boats. (Once you lose the APCs.)

What is the total dton?

I assume you are losing the tanks, and the speeders as well as the APCs to fit on the ship with no cargo space? </font>[/QUOTE]1 tank and 2 speeders, and seats for 18 Troopers fit within the 30 DTon Assault boat (There are two of them in a Javelin Class Mercenary Cruiser.)

Total displacement for the vehicles, including the logistic vehicles is 25.6 DTons. (The APC's are small at 3 DTons each, they were the smallest/cheapest vehicle I could find that could carry some supplies and a remote MRL.

)

39 Troops at 1DTon of expendable supplies each brings the overall total to 64.6 tons. (And the expendables for sustained operations will take up cargo hold space on a Mercenary Cruiser.)

(Though when going with the Mercenary Cruiser there are only 35 troops, the remaining 4 are now assault lander crew.)

In your list, the APC's add virtually no fire support to the mix. (Kicking the crews outside with Gauss Rifles would give you the same firepower.)

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
They may be odd, but Striker doesn't work out that much different.

Oh yes it does. Striker doesn't have 'low penetration' results. If your damage value is 10 lower than the target's armor value, you will never damage the target.

The actual penetration numbers were essentially the same. The mechanism for using those numbers was totally different.

Personally I think the Vehicle rules in T20 are better thought out and better balanced.

The vehicle rules in T20 make the fundamental error (inherited from high guard) of basing armor on (armor/volume) rather than the correct (armor/area).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
They may be odd, but Striker doesn't work out that much different.

Oh yes it does. Striker doesn't have 'low penetration' results. If your damage value is 10 lower than the target's armor value, you will never damage the target.

The actual penetration numbers were essentially the same. The mechanism for using those numbers was totally different.</font>[/QUOTE]And in MT if your penetration value wasn't equal to the vehicle armor it didn't penetrate. (though you could wound a person who wasn't wearing fully enclosed armor). If the penetration value was less than between the armor value and twice the armor value of the target you did half damage. Beyond twice the armor value you do full damage. A better hit will get you better damage amounts. Most small arms will do only one point of damage to someone wearing cloth armor, and no damage to someone wearing Combat armor.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Personally I think the Vehicle rules in T20 are better thought out and better balanced.

The vehicle rules in T20 make the fundamental error (inherited from high guard) of basing armor on (armor/volume) rather than the correct (armor/area). </font>[/QUOTE]Except you don't just armor the skin of an armored vehicle, regardless of size. It also requires additional structure to support the armor, bulkheads and compartmentalization (All of which is armored), especially on vehicles that have to be environmentally sealed, like most combat vehicles, etc. You really think the only armor on a tank, a Cruiser or a Battleship is the skin? You think you can take a limo, add a ton of armor plating to the skin and drive it about? It doesn't work that way. (It can't, physics doesn't allow it.) Armor is not just about the skin of a vessel, it never has been and it most likely never will be.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
And in MT if your penetration value wasn't equal to the vehicle armor it didn't penetrate. (though you could wound a person who wasn't wearing fully enclosed armor). If the penetration value was less than between the armor value and twice the armor value of the target you did half damage. Beyond twice the armor value you do full damage.

Which is the fundamental error. To get a low penetration result vs 20 cm steel (AV 34) you need a DV of 34 (20 cm penetration). To get a full penetration result you need DV 68 (3378 cm). It seems odd to need a weapon 159x as powerful to go from low penetration to high penetration...

Except you don't just armor the skin of an armored vehicle, regardless of size.

That's more or less true, but totally irrelevant. The thickness of hull armor is proportional to (armor applied to hull)/(area of hull). Now, it may well be that (armor applied to hull) is less than (total mass of armor), but if, say, 75% of armor is on the surface and 25% is internal, it still means armor thickness scales with (armor factor * volume / area).

 

[jec10]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jec10:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
OK. As promised.

Total cost, one load of ammo, before discount for quantity purchase of standard equipment, but including things like Pressure tents and other miscellaneous supplies. MCr36.4

Given a choice and their own Mercenary Cruiser, I would dump the APC for Assault landing craft. This unit fits on a 600 ton Javelin Mercenary cruiser without using any of the Cargo capacity on the ship. The whole unit fits in two 30 ton assault boats. (Once you lose the APCs.)

What is the total dton?

I assume you are losing the tanks, and the speeders as well as the APCs to fit on the ship with no cargo space? </font>[/QUOTE]1 tank and 2 speeders, and seats for 18 Troopers fit within the 30 DTon Assault boat (There are two of them in a Javelin Class Mercenary Cruiser.)

Total displacement for the vehicles, including the logistic vehicles is 25.6 DTons. (The APC's are small at 3 DTons each, they were the smallest/cheapest vehicle I could find that could carry some supplies and a remote MRL.

)

39 Troops at 1DTon of expendable supplies each brings the overall total to 64.6 tons. (And the expendables for sustained operations will take up cargo hold space on a Mercenary Cruiser.)

(Though when going with the Mercenary Cruiser there are only 35 troops, the remaining 4 are now assault lander crew.)

In your list, the APC's add virtually no fire support to the mix. (Kicking the crews outside with Gauss Rifles would give you the same firepower.) </font>[/QUOTE]I beg to differ on your last. When I play Striker the ability of the APCs to pump out rounds that will cut through the best Combat Armour/Battle Dress at several kilometres is critical. This is the same point made to you by SgtHulka earlier in this thread. Gauss Rifle rounds simply bounce off the best combat armour/battle dress (as they will bounce off the APCs).

Frankly, given that the entire unit costs me only 3 MCr I'm pretty relaxed about the APC issue.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by jec10:
I beg to differ on your last. When I play Striker the ability of the APCs to pump out rounds that will cut through the best Combat Armour/Battle Dress at several kilometres is critical. This is the same point made to you by SgtHulka earlier in this thread. Gauss Rifle rounds simply bounce off the best combat armour/battle dress (as they will bounce off the APCs).

Frankly, given that the entire unit costs me only 3 MCr I'm pretty relaxed about the APC issue.

Which is why Gauss Rifles have RAM Grenades.

(And why all of my troopers carry 20 of them.) I seriously considered arming everyone with TL13 Laser rifles, but then they can't do much to light armor vehicles, and can't suppress anyone. I should check weight of Laser Rifles and RAM Launchers. (Still have no suppressive fire capability, but it simplifies the ammo situation.)

I haven't played Striker, (just recently got the rules) so I guess I am still thinking Mega Traveller where light autocanons don't penetrate cloth armor.

 

[Jame]

That brings up one of my problems with weaponry in Our Favorite Game: the weapons, especially the rifles and support weapons (aside from plasma weapons) don't do enough damage/penetration. A light autocannon ought to turn someone wearing cloth into swiss cheese (not meat sauce; that's what a heavy autocannon does).

 

[Golan2072]

Under Striker, a very light (20mm) autocannon (pen 11) would kill a person in Cloth armor outright on a roll of 6+ on 2D, and would seriously wound him on a roll of 5-; furthermore, with a +5 autofire bonus, multiple hits would be scored in one burst. And IIRC, a second Serious wound kills the target.

And with exposive rounds, each wound becomes one level more serious - THIS is where you get your meat sauce...