Mercenary and Military Unit Tactics

[mbrinkhues]

The "In Universe" rating is done by the scouts or the TAS. Both high-tech organisations with matching needs and philosophies. When my father saw me in "sandblasting gear" (Filter mask, full body coverall) in 1996 he shook his head. Fourty years earlier they didn't take that precautions. Same with dust in the mines. That's probably why my grandfather got "black lung" and my father who benefitted from the better precautions (Wetting, Water traps etc) did not.

So what TAS/ISS might write about a world and what the locals might do on that world can be widely different. Even more so when the TL does simply not ALLOW for an enclosed structure And given the problems with Gaiasphere I would put arcologies at TL8+ at least

And when it comes to gear, Traveller never had "everything". Quite a few things are not on the lists yet they will exist in game. Otherwise the characters run around without underwear

 

[flykiller]

And when it comes to gear, Traveller never had "everything". Quite a few things are not on the lists yet they will exist in game.

that's how I see it too - more of a starting point than a delimiter.

I have to agree with BLT that the primary operations area of imperial marines will be within major populated structures inaccessible to vehicals. what doesn't seem reasonable is 1) that APC's are unable to mount armor superior to battledress, 2) that APC's are unable to mount weapons superior to those carried by an infantry squad, and 3) that there are very few areas where APC's may be deployed to effect. at minimum a marine unit that doesn't know who, what, where, or when it is going to fight will have APC's just in case it needs them.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Going by MT/TNE/GT canon both the Marines and the Army employ vehicles including both G-Carriers, Astrin Grav APC, Intrepid/Trepinda Grav Tanks and various support units (Meson Guns, Missile Launchers etc)

Using TNE or GT as a construction base the armor on IFVs and Tanks is far superior to battledress, the same is true for their firecontrol, defences, Electronic Warfare etc. Add in defence systems capabel of defeating HEAT and light plasma guns.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And when it comes to gear, Traveller never had "everything". Quite a few things are not on the lists yet they will exist in game.

that's how I see it too - more of a starting point than a delimiter.

I have to agree with BLT that the primary operations area of imperial marines will be within major populated structures inaccessible to vehicals. what doesn't seem reasonable is 1) that APC's are unable to mount armor superior to battledress, 2) that APC's are unable to mount weapons superior to those carried by an infantry squad, and 3) that there are very few areas where APC's may be deployed to effect. at minimum a marine unit that doesn't know who, what, where, or when it is going to fight will have APC's just in case it needs them. </font>[/QUOTE]The issue is that those vehicles take up space. On a Marine ship, sure, on a Naval vessel, less likely. In a Mercenary unit, where we are talking major cost factors (in capital amounts) and their eye is on the bottom line, for limited use, I see them employed even less. A tank or two, sure, An MRL or two, sure. APC's no they don't add anything to the bulk of potential tickets and they cost too much to carry around for use, just in case. Further training has to be done either as a Lift Infantry unit or as a Leg Unit. Given the spread of potential ticket locations, which one makes more sense? So when you deploy the APC's your men will be poorly trained to make full use of them. And are your APC crews going to sit around on their butts for 75% of your tickets?

 

[flykiller]

the bottom line

the bottom line is winning, and in a fight between two squads and their properly armored, properly armed, properly employed APC's, and four squads of straight infantry, the mech unit should win most of the time.

as for merc operating areas, I can't see mercs being deployed to high-population built-up urban areas with any regularity. mercs operate on the edges where local forces are weak and where imperial forces can't be bothered to intervene - that is, low-population low-urbanization low-tax-generating areas. most of the time there should be plenty of room for AFV's to maneuver, and those units that don't bring them will be at a disadvantage.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Going by MT/TNE/GT canon both the Marines and the Army employ vehicles including both G-Carriers, Astrin Grav APC, Intrepid/Trepinda Grav Tanks and various support units (Meson Guns, Missile Launchers etc)

Using TNE or GT as a construction base the armor on IFVs and Tanks is far superior to battledress, the same is true for their firecontrol, defences, Electronic Warfare etc. Add in defence systems capabel of defeating HEAT and light plasma guns.

OK Michael, and anyone else interested. Build the Merc Unit. To show us how superior it is.

MT rules. A platoon. No Low berth transport for the Mercs. Standard weapons, vehicles and equipment. TL13 limit. It has to fit on an unmodified Subliner. The Crew of the Sub liner will be single occupancy, and the two senior members of the Merc unit are also expected to have single cabins. 1 ton of cargo space will be used in the cargo hold per soldier (to represent body armor, personal weapons and supplies for the trip.) And lets see which unit comes out ahead. (Cost and firepower wise.) Disregarding the obvious advantage that light infantry provides to fight indoors.

Lets see this huge advantage provided by the APCs.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />the bottom line

the bottom line is winning, and in a fight between two squads and their properly armored, properly armed, properly employed APC's, and four squads of straight infantry, the mech unit should win most of the time.

as for merc operating areas, I can't see mercs being deployed to high-population built-up urban areas with any regularity. mercs operate on the edges where local forces are weak and where imperial forces can't be bothered to intervene - that is, low-population low-urbanization low-tax-generating areas. most of the time there should be plenty of room for AFV's to maneuver, and those units that don't bring them will be at a disadvantage. </font>[/QUOTE]The bottom line is making more money than your expenses. The bottom line is not just winning but winning and making a profit. Losing a single Grav APC or even just a G-Carriers for a Platoon on a MCr2 ticket means the platoon paid to fight there.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I forgot, MT doesn't have a Subliner. Since we aren't actually using the liner for anything but transport on a Charter, we can use the CT stats for capacity, for these purposes. So 129 Displacement Tons and 21 staterooms available for the Mercenary contingent.

 

[mbrinkhues]

BTL:

MT does have a 600dt Subbie in "Assignment Vigilanty" (TTL-13). Besides restricting it to one specific craft is not very realistic. Depending on the game system there are quite a few small (Large ship universe) frighters up to 5000dton that can work as transport

As for the Rest, I don't play MT. Add in that there ARE differences between the Systems. So whoile you might be right for MT using GT or TNE it will come out different, making the example useless IMHO

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Lets see this huge advantage provided by the APCs.

I can list one advantage without designing the unit: The transport unloads three platoons at the starport. The area of deployment is 1000 kilometers west of the starport.

The APC platoon mounts up and drives.

The grav belt platoon flys half way there, runs out of power and walks the rest of the way.

The 'more infantry for your dollar' platoon runs out of food and water and dies while attempting to walk the whole way.

[Subject to some inaccuracies, but it makes a small point.]

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And when it comes to gear, Traveller never had "everything". Quite a few things are not on the lists yet they will exist in game.

that's how I see it too - more of a starting point than a delimiter.

I have to agree with BLT that the primary operations area of imperial marines will be within major populated structures inaccessible to vehicals. what doesn't seem reasonable is 1) that APC's are unable to mount armor superior to battledress, 2) that APC's are unable to mount weapons superior to those carried by an infantry squad, and 3) that there are very few areas where APC's may be deployed to effect. at minimum a marine unit that doesn't know who, what, where, or when it is going to fight will have APC's just in case it needs them. </font>[/QUOTE]The issue is that those vehicles take up space. On a Marine ship, sure, on a Naval vessel, less likely. In a Mercenary unit, where we are talking major cost factors (in capital amounts) and their eye is on the bottom line, for limited use, I see them employed even less. A tank or two, sure, An MRL or two, sure. APC's no they don't add anything to the bulk of potential tickets and they cost too much to carry around for use, just in case. Further training has to be done either as a Lift Infantry unit or as a Leg Unit. Given the spread of potential ticket locations, which one makes more sense? So when you deploy the APC's your men will be poorly trained to make full use of them. And are your APC crews going to sit around on their butts for 75% of your tickets? </font>[/QUOTE]That there won't be combat vehicles on a Navy combat ship is nothing new, naval troops on those ships have a TOTALLY DIFFERENT JOB. They are there for ship inspection and on-board security.

The only Navy ships that transport massiv amounts of vehicles are the equivalents of LST, LHA and other troop transport/assault transport units.


As for the rest this is very much an IYTU question depending on WHERE the majority of merc operations do happen. IYTU this seems to be in enclosed structures and cities since you see "tainted" as "all live indoors" and make all planets equally likely as employers and all merc units the same.

IMTU this is not the fact. Units DO vary in composition and size, the Imperium will not accept Battle-Dress units slugging it out in enclosed and critical arcologies and tainted is a ISS implied designation that the locals might not share

We also differ in unit availability and unit maintenance, for me Battledress is extremly complex and maintenance intensive compared to vehicles.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
We also differ in unit availability and unit maintenance, for me Battledress is extremly complex and maintenance intensive compared to vehicles.

Out of personal curiosity, is this just an IYTU opinion or is there some rule (any system) that gave you this impression?

 

[mbrinkhues]

I'd have too look up TNE/GT for rules, most likely both have some.

But mainly it is based on the description of those suits and their maintenance in other settings (Forever War, Gundam, BGC, Posleen) where the compact Systems and Power Amplifers require extrem amounts of care.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
BTL:

MT does have a 600dt Subbie in "Assignment Vigilanty" (TTL-13). Besides restricting it to one specific craft is not very realistic. Depending on the game system there are quite a few small (Large ship universe) frighters up to 5000dton that can work as transport

As for the Rest, I don't play MT. Add in that there ARE differences between the Systems. So whoile you might be right for MT using GT or TNE it will come out different, making the example useless IMHO

I picked a standard design to put a reasonable limit on it. Since of the TNE material I have is limited to the rulebook, if I can even find it. I didn't even know that T4 existed until the company was out of business. GT is ATU and not OTU and the numbers in GT don't line up with much of anything in any of hte other versions. CT lacks a comphrensive, vehicle combat system and you guys don't like T20. So I can design this unit under MT, which I have sufficient material, CT or T20.

A Merc unit has to get there on something they can afford to charter, what do you recommend if not a Subsidized Liner? You want to do an entire company? (I didn't want to do that much work for this, especially since I don't use the MT rules for much of anything.)

So come on, pick your unit size and lets see how much difference there actually is, for firepower, cost effectiveness, unit survival and profit margin.

 

[flykiller]

Losing a single Grav APC or even just a G-Carriers for a Platoon on a MCr2 ticket means the platoon paid to fight there.

(looking at book 3 prices) well heck, that's also true if they lose 7 battledress and associated grav belts, a very possible event.

in any case that's a complete change of subject. if a client is unable to afford the operating expenses of a merc unit then he can't afford the merc unit. doesn't change the fact that a client that pays for a properly outfitted unit stands a much better chance of achieving his goals than a client that only pays for a minimal unit.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by atpollard:
The grav belt platoon flys half way there, runs out of power and walks the rest of the way.

According to LBB3, Grav Belts have the same range as air/rafts, and air/rafts could go for 10 weeks between rechargings - enough to cover any planetary distance. Striker doesn't list a range for them IIRC...

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
CT lacks a comphrensive, vehicle combat system and you guys don't like T20.

CT has Striker...

Concerning the platoon, regardless of being a light infantry unit or a mech infantry unit, it'll probably need a few vehicles for logistics (transporting supplies for the most part). However, for a small light infantry unit, this could be easily handled by one or two air/rafts.

About the subbie:
- 30 staterooms total.
- Assuming that it's unarmedarmed, according to LBB2 it has a crew of 9.
- The two highest ranking mercs take single staterooms.
- It means 19 remaining staterooms, that is 38 troopers with double occupancy.
- With 1 ton per merc, personal equipment will take 40 tons. That leaves 89 tons for vehicles and heavier gear.

I'm thinking about the following TO&E for a BD-infantry platoon:
- 4x 8-man squads (each composed of 2 fireteams; one PGMP-13 per fireteam, the rest carrying gauss rifles and RAM grenades).
- 1x 4-man logistics team (mechanic, cook and 2 supply troops), riding two enclosed air/rafts with the supplies.
- 1x 4-man command team (CO, senior NCO, medic and comm specialist).

BDs for everyone but the logistics team (who'll wear combat armor).

 

[atpollard]

You can actually ignore the details of the transport if you just assume a middle passage (8000 cr) for each soldier and standard freight (1000 cr / dTon) for equipment. The assumption is that the unit will not arrive and unpack under fire - which agrees with all of the published tickets that I have read (although I have not read them all).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
The grav belt platoon flys half way there, runs out of power and walks the rest of the way.

According to LBB3, Grav Belts have the same range as air/rafts, and air/rafts could go for 10 weeks between rechargings - enough to cover any planetary distance. Striker doesn't list a range for them IIRC...

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
CT lacks a comphrensive, vehicle combat system and you guys don't like T20.

CT has Striker...</font>[/QUOTE]But unfortunately most of the CT vehicles are not covered in Striker and it lacks the comprehensive set of vehicles that other versions have.

Concerning the platoon, regardless of being a light infantry unit or a mech infantry unit, it'll probably need a few vehicles for logistics (transporting supplies for the most part). However, for a small light infantry unit, this could be easily handled by one or two air/rafts.

Absolutely. And not having APC's does not equate to not having vehicles.

About the subbie:
- 30 staterooms total.
- Assuming that it's unarmedarmed, according to LBB2 it has a crew of 9.
- The two highest ranking mercs take single staterooms.
- It means 19 remaining staterooms, that is 38 troopers with double occupancy.
- With 1 ton per merc, personal equipment will take 40 tons. That leaves 89 tons for vehicles and heavier gear.

I'm thinking about the following TO&E for a BD-infantry platoon:
- 4x 8-man squads (each composed of 2 fireteams; one PGMP-13 per fireteam, the rest carrying gauss rifles and RAM grenades).
- 1x 4-man logistics team (mechanic, cook and 2 supply troops), riding two enclosed air/rafts with the supplies.
- 1x 4-man command team (CO, senior NCO, medic and comm specialist).

BDs for everyone but the logistics team (who'll wear combat armor). [/QB][/QUOTE]

Aside from lacking serious suppressive fire capability, that works. But CT doesn't have a high tech GPMG. (Thanks to the Ram grenades it will have decent ranged, anti-armor capability.) The PGMP-13 will mess up someone's day.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Aside from lacking serious suppressive fire capability, that works. But CT doesn't have a high tech GPMG.

Are we sticking to pure cannon or could we use my Gauss MG stats for Striker/CT?

Its only disadvantage is its relatively low penetration (7 in comparison to TL13 battledresses' 10). But I guess that enemy BD infantry would be targeted by RAMs and PGMPs...

 

[jec10]

Employee 2-4601 what is the cost of your unit in CT/Striker terms? Seeing as how the whole point of the discussion is cost-effectiveness we need to know how much your platoon costs and the breakdown. (I guess you'll have to design the enclosed air/rafts with Striker - or are you using one of the designs you've already posted elsewhere?)

I'm keen to have a go at designing an APC platoon, but want to know what kind of ballpark MCr the battledress/grav belt unit comes to.