Mgt art

[far-trader]

...Success is judged by sales, not purism. Mongoose Traveller has sold very well. Though I am sure you will now claim that this means nothing because Classic Traveller has sold more over 30 years, but that is not relevant in the slightest to the discussion.

Since you brought it up and are claiming success for Mongoose because of very good sales perhaps it is relevant even if it is off topic.

Not saying Mongoose hasn't been successful, but I haven't seen any numbers and anytime I've asked no one has given any, like it's some big business secret. We do have numbers for CT. And not over 30 years, just a few, and they are very good numbers.

EDIT: Typed while you were editing, I don't have a 2 year sales number, how about 4 years? How about 64,320 core rules in 4 years. Take half that, even though I suspect most of the sales were much more immediate than that, probably within 2 years. I'd love to see how well Mongoose is doing in comparison. Even with your caveat of "in the present market". It would help make the argument that Traveller less a fringe item and more mainstream.

Unless those numbers are not so big after all of course. In which case critiquing the product and seeking the reasons could make it better.

 

[Supplement Four]

Colin is right. It is not just tiresome though, it is pathetic.

You need to watch your tone. I'm not being snarky with you. Try to do the same with me.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Since this thread has drifted anyway one question:

Given that Mongoose is changing the setting anyway why don't they try an FIX it while the scaffolding is up? Given the changes already made they seem to have a broad licence. So why not:

+ Fix the big ship/small ship problem
+ Put X-Boats on a solid base
+ Retcon the Imperial-Zho Border to make the Marches believabel
+ Remove stuff like Annic Nova

Since you'll take Flak anyway, go the whole nine yards. And I volunteer to play the dentist!

 

[Supplement Four]

Quick poll: Which one of these pics shows Vargr in Traveller, and which shows Gnolls in D&D?

Or this one...

Ah...it was the bow and arrows that gave it away, huh?

 

[spinwardpirate]

Where is GDW now?

Still around, just working behind the cameras these days. GDW alums have put some money in the pockets of more than a couple game companies.

What's the story? GDW put out a new game every 22 days for 22 years? Something like that. They were around for practically 10 years after doing 2300 and 1889. I don't know that the art for those games contributed to their decline.

All our plans are based around being here, not in one year's time, but for the next ten years (at least).

Great! I wish you luck! And since fortune favours the prepared mind, luck will hopefully be with you!

Fwiw, I just bought myself a birthday present. I picked up the Military Vehicle Guide. The art therein is very good. Two thumbs up from me.

And now, back to painting minis for tomorrow's game!

 

[PathfinderAP]

Answered above. Uplifted animals is Traveller. Parallel evolution leading to alien lion-men is Space Opera.


Hans

No, Uplifted animals is Sci/Fi in general, but Lion men Are Traveller
(isn't the word "Aslan" meant to be Turkish for Lion?)

Dog people, Cat people = Space Opera, not gritty "Aliens"

 

[PathfinderAP]

Quick poll: Which one of these pics shows Vargr in Traveller, and which shows Gnolls in D&D?

Or this one...

Ah...it was the bow and arrows that gave it away, huh?

I thought the Vargr reminded me more of an Underworld Lycan, than a Gnoll,

Are you going to do the quick poll of, "Which one of these pics shows a Darrian in Traveller, and which shows an Elf in D&D?", next?

 

[Colin]

Quick poll: Which one of these pics shows Vargr in Traveller, and which shows Gnolls in D&D?

Or this one...

Ah...it was the bow and arrows that gave it away, huh?

Gnolls would be more like upifted hyenas than wolves.

Let's just look at the top picture, though. Two wolf-men types. Both wearing high-tech looking armour, not ninja pajamas. One has an obvious computer on his arm. Yes, one has a drawn sword. Swords are part of Traveller. Vargr like blade weapons, and so do Imperial Marines. That's all canon. The other has some sort of sheathed blade. The one with the drawn sword also sports a holstered pistol. And Vargr's duel for position. I don't see how you can think of this image as un-Traveller.

So: wolf-men - Traveller? - yes
Swords - Traveller? - yes
Pistols - Traveller? - yes
Arm-mounted computers - Traveller? - yes
Combat Armour - Traveller? - yes
Dueling dog-men - Traveller? - yes
Dynamic pose on a cover - Traveller? - Well, that's rare, admittedly
Frills/Fringes as decoration - Traveller? - not really, I suppose. However, look at what many bikers wear. That sort of decoration isn't that far out.

Of course, I've raised most these points before, in questioning your criticism of this particular piece, and you have yet to respond to any of them.

Likewise, how do you justify calling that Darrian image Cyberpunk? She's wearing combat armour, has a wrist-mounted computer, but nothing (aside maybe from hair-style) that would fit her into the cyberpunk genre. You have used these unflattering terms in this same discussion over on another board, too, without justifying it in any way. Sure, it's your opinion, but even opinions are based on something.

 

[rancke]

No, Uplifted animals is Sci/Fi in general, but Lion men Are Traveller
(isn't the word "Aslan" meant to be Turkish for Lion?)

But Aslan are not not lion-men. They are sentient aliens who have a vague resemblance to lions. Please tell me you're able to appreciate the difference between "vaguely resembling lions" and "being anthropomorphic lions".

Dog people, Cat people = Space Opera, not gritty "Aliens"

The Aslans aren't cat people. Don't take my word for it, though. Ask Loren Wiseman or any of the other GDW people who created them.

Uplifted dogs and cats aren't dog and cat people in the Space Opera sense, come to that, but with the difficulty you have understanding the nature of the Aslans, I figure it's a lost cause trying to make you realize that.


Hans

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

Hi,

I have to admit that I find these type threads somewhat disheartening. If anything I would much prefer seeing a wider vriety of art styles rather than less.

If I have learned anything from this board its that alot of people have far different views than me on what things might be like in a Traveller type setting, be it one of the various OTU incarnations or a completely separate home done design. Bearing in mind that the original Traveller rukes pre-date the OTU, would seem to suggest to me that a home-brew setting using Traveller rules is just as much Traveller as something set in any era of the OTU.

With respect to the OTU though, since rulebooks and setting material currently exist covering periods such as the Inter-Stellar Wars, Milleu 0, the late 3rd Imperium, an alternate late 3rd Imperium, the Rebellion-era, the post-apocolyptic Virus-era, and the aftermath of all the previous eras also kind of seems to suggest that there is no real singluar look and feel to Traveller and/or the OTU.

With respect to the artwork that has been posted previously, my personal feeling is that all of it "is Traveller" in some form or another especially when you consider that at its hey-dey the Imperium supposedly spanned over 11,000 systems (or something like that) and the other regions of known space covered even more. It wouldn't surprise me at all that you could and probbly would encounter all sorts of diffent looks and styles in both characters and settings, etc.

I know tht in real life, just from a brief period of time that I spent in Bath England one year, it was not at all uncommon to see people who looked like typical business men or women standing beside people with so many tattoos, leather clothes, facial piercings, and spiked hair that they look like they could have easily just stepped off the set of one of the Mad Max movies. Simialrly, its not all that uncommon today to run into some people who are seriously into Goth type styles, and may seem out of place. However, I doubt many people would claim that they aren't modern day humans, just because they opt for a different style than others.

As such, to me Ninja looking Vargrs, or guys in leather looking spikey outfits, or body hugging spandex like pressure suits are no less "Traveller" than Shogun like animals that look kind of like lions, one eyed aliens (Vegans?), giant land starfish, or short bird-like dinosaur people (or however you wish to describe some of the fairly common races in the OTU).

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF

 

[Colin]

But Aslan are not not lion-men. They are sentient aliens who have a vague resemblance to lions. Please tell me you're able to appreciate the difference between "vaguely resembling lions" and "being anthropomorphic lions".

The Aslans aren't cat people. Don't take my word for it, though. Ask Loren Wiseman or any of the other GDW people who created them.

Uplifted dogs and cats aren't dog and cat people in the Space Opera sense, come to that, but with the difficulty you have understanding the nature of the Aslans, I figure it's a lost cause trying to make you realize that.

Hans

They are cat-like though. And they more than "vaguely" resemble lions. As much as, or moreso, than other cat-people in SF (Star Trek's Caitians, Niven's Kzinti, Cheryh's Hani, among others). Manes, tails, retractable claws, territorial by biology and culture. Prides (one male, many females). Cat-people is a simplification, sure, but it is an accurate one.

Heck, if you call them "samurai lions" you'll capture about 90% of their feel. I like Aslan, but I ain't kidding myself about them, either.

 

[Ishmael]

But Aslan are not not lion-men.

Aslan are descended from carnivore pouncers living on grassy plains, are aggressive and territorial, enjoy a 3:1 ratio of females to males and the females are the providers.

Lions are carnivore pouncers living on grassy plains, are aggressive and territorial, enjoy a 3:1 ratio of females to males and the females are the providers.

Very similar except that Aslan walk upright, sexually reproduce, biologically compatible environment-wise and interact with humans like humans ( albeit from a different cultural background than a typical Traveller human )

Close enough to 'lion-men' to get the general gist of instinctual, behavioral and reproductive attitudes. I'm sure there are other similarities if I dig deeper.

but back to the topic....
all versions that I've seen have had good art AND crappy art
art quality is subjective
the 'traveller'-look is subjective
Why not just print out pics from the 'web that tickle your fancy and glue them in the books yourself? ...or just have placeholders in .pdf's so people can cut'n'paste such pictures into them before they print it out

 

[scrabble]

Ah...it was the bow and arrows that gave it away, huh?

The top picture very obviously shows Vargr. The bottom picture very obviously shows gnolls. But even without that, the top picture has high-tech armor and obvious electronics, and the bottom has obviously low-tech armour and weapons.

I think the real problem is that you seem incapable of differentiating between something that is obviously based on the canine form (the top picture) and something that is obviously based on the hyena form (the bottom picture).

Either way, I think that the Mongoose Vargr picture is vastly preferably to the photoshop hack-job that was on the T20 cover.

 

[beowulf2044]

Aslan. From the Classic source.

 

[aramis]

The top picture very obviously shows Vargr. The bottom picture very obviously shows gnolls. But even without that, the top picture has high-tech armor and obvious electronics, and the bottom has obviously low-tech armour and weapons.

I think the real problem is that you seem incapable of differentiating between something that is obviously based on the canine form (the top picture) and something that is obviously based on the hyena form (the bottom picture).

Either way, I think that the Mongoose Vargr picture is vastly preferably to the photoshop hack-job that was on the T20 cover.

Honestly, neither looks like Either to me. Vargr generally look wolf-like, in my mind, thanks to the Bros. Kieth. All but one pre-Mongoose vargr illo showed Vargr looking like upright wolves with human hands instead of forepaws. These guys (both photos) look nothing like wolves.

Gnolls, to me, are scrawny, have oversized heads, and no serious organization. Again, neither looks likes this.

Now, I don't know why, but ugly art seems to be the current rule in the "big companies"... Mongoose, WotC, and WWG... and considering Matt's choices, it's quite apparent my idea of good art is not congruent to his. That's fine.

I like art in games to be informative; the art I've seen in the MGT CR PDF, HG PDF, and Merc PDF has been generally poor on that score, too, IMO. The character illos in the core are not inspirational, and honestly, T20 has the same problem to a significant degree.

The ships don't come close to the deckplans in several cases, and the PDF doesn't seem to have been updated to corrected deckplans (nor to include errata), so don't match the design specs, either.

The deckplans in the CR, HG and T&G pdfs are useless; by including it only as rasters, it doesn't reach usability. I've discussed this via email with Matt before, and am thoroughly unsatisfied. The issue is that the deck plans need to be vector format to be useful, especially for the larger ships. And that means special handling, and probably getting them from the artist in EPS format.

me, I don't buy RPGs on dead tree much anymore. And I'm not going to be, either. And what I've seen of Mongoose is that dead tree, they have had trade-ins, but PDF is still printing 1.

 

[scrabble]

Honestly, neither looks like Either to me. Vargr generally look wolf-like, in my mind, thanks to the Bros. Kieth. All but one pre-Mongoose vargr illo showed Vargr looking like upright wolves with human hands instead of forepaws. These guys (both photos) look nothing like wolves.

Do you not think that given 300,000 years of independent evolution, Vargr would evolve away from looking like carbon copies of wolves? I certainly would expect "modern Vargr" to look as dissimilar to their forebears from 300,000 years ago as we are to our own forebears from that era.

 

[aramis]

Do you not think that given 300,000 years of independent evolution, Vargr would evolve away from looking like carbon copies of wolves? I certainly would expect "modern Vargr" to look as dissimilar to their forebears from 300,000 years ago as we are to our own forebears from that era.

Based upon current forensic anthropological works, the only hominid of the last 300K Years you'd easily distinguish visibly would be H. Floresiensis.

So yes, I do expect them to look as dissimilar... IE, not very dissimilar.

 

[captainjack]

Based upon current forensic anthropological works, the only hominid of the last 300K Years you'd easily distinguish visibly would be H. Floresiensis.

So yes, I do expect them to look as dissimilar... IE, not very dissimilar.

Bingo. Provide Heidelbergensis and other archaic HSaps with a shave, haircut and a suit, and you get a shortish, possibly stocky person....not even the "caveman" of geico ads, which seems to be about the extent of popular knowledge on the subject.

Okay. Next gratuitous arguing point ?

 

[scrabble]

Next gratuitous arguing point ?

Ask Supplement Four, he seems to have a talent for coming up with them.


Either way, the speciousness of the "they do not look like Vargr" argument can be easily demonstrated. The very idea that there is but a single recognizable type of Vargr (or any other alien) is a ridiculous as there being a single recognizable type of human. Show me a picture of a human, and I will show you a picture of another human who looks nothing like the one you showed. And a thousand more who also look nothing like that one. Certainly they will share core characteristics - all would be recognizable as members of humanity, but there is obviously a huge amount of variation in appearance within our own species.

We have humans with skin colors that range from very pale to almost jet black. Human hair styles vary enormously. Eyes and facial structure vary enormously as well. Body types range from catwalk models to morbidly obese. Tall and short, thin and wide. Does anyone think that all humans on all planets in Traveller are white caucasians? Are there no black-skinned Vilani or Zhodani? Should every human in the Imperium look like the ones illustrated in Classic Traveller? Of course not.

Why can this not be so with the Vargr? Maybe some look more lupine than others. Maybe some have short muzzles and others have long ones. You only have to look at the incredible variety of dog breeds on Earth to see how much potential variation there can be in the canid form. And given the variety of planetary environments on which Vargr can evolve in, those variations could be even more extreme. What would high gravity Vargr look like? Or low gravity? With three hundred thousand years of evolution in a variety of different environments, I would be surprised if Vargr from one world looked much like Vargr from the next.

Given all of this, how can anybody say that the Vargr on the cover of the Mongoose are "not Vargr"? One may as well claim (out of ignorance of the variation, not out of racism) that a picture of an african or a oriental person is "not human" because one assumes that all humans should be white and caucasian.

 

[Colin]

I'm replying to S4 is this forum, rather then another, because I don't want to further derail a topic there.

Again, you mis-characterize what I've said. I think I'm done talking with you about Mongoose Traveller. Or anything else. Which is a shame, as you do have some good ideas.

Yes, I'm a smart guy, at least smart enough to know when a discussion is utterly pointless. Bye bye.