Mgt art

[Colin]

Well, lucky for you, you're getting your cyberpunk Darrians and Ninja Vargr Jedi wanna be's as art for your Traveller game.

Those two illos are very Traveller, and wouldn't have been out of place on a DGP cover, for example.

I didn't see the Darrian as cyberpunk at. Space opera, sure. Cyberpunk? I don't see it at all. She's wearing combat armor, with a wrist display.

And Ninja Jedi? Vargr use swords. It's in canon. Imperial-bloody-Marines use swords too. They aren't dressed in black pyjamas, or desert robes. I see two duelling Vargrs. They do that, according to canon.

Sure they jazzed the Vargr up. It's a different world of gamers out there, and they needed to update things. Darrians too.

 

[Supplement Four]

Those two illos are very Traveller, and wouldn't have been out of place on a DGP cover, for example.

That they're "Traveller" is your opinion, definitely not mine. But on the DGP point, you're completely wrong.

I own just about all of the DGP stuff, and no pics are fantasy oriented the way the Ninja Vargr and Cyberpunk Darrian are.

 

[rancke]

Huh? Anti-gravity, artificial gravity, meson guns, ships the size of small moons (the Tigress), fusion guns, dog-aliens, cat-aliens, black globes, nuclear damper, starfish aliens (it's even an SF trope), the Ancients, world-cities, the scout ship as a miniature star destroyer... Do I need to go on?

I, for one, deliberately use the words verisimilitude and plausibility rather than realism precisely to anticipate such arguments. Anti-gravity, artificial gravity, meson guns, fusion guns, nuclear dampers, jump drive, they're all supposedly grounded in a certain amount of realism -- hard science with a soft center, if you like. Uplifted animals are straight SF. Aliens with a vague resemblance to lions (NOT lion-men) are perfectly plausible (unlike lion-men, which is pure unadulterated Space Opera), same for Hivers, the Forerunners show up in a lot of Space Opera, true, but they can also be played straight, as Anderson, Niven, Heinlein, Vance and others prove.

Traveller IS space opera, not hard science fiction. And that's fine.

"Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing powerful (and sometimes quite fanciful) technologies and abilities. Perhaps the most significant trait of space opera is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very large-scale." [Wikipedia]​

One thing that has been characteristic of Traveller from the very start is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very down-to-earth. Even the big battles aren't that large-scale, and they tend to be nothing but background event for decidedly down-to-earth PC action.

Traveller had it's roots in the space opera sf of the 50s and 60s. H. Beam Piper, and writers like him.

Traveller has it's roots in the writings of Piper and others like him, right enough, but Piper and the others didn't write Space Opera. Well, maybe Tubb did, I don't know -- I was never able to finish any of his books.

People coming to Traveller now will have experienced SF in a different way, and will be wanting a different look, and feel.

A non-Traveller look and feel? Look, Mongoose has the right to change Traveller to be anything they want it to be. That's just something we have to accept. And once I realized they didn't want to stick to the old style, I did stop (mostly) trying to tell them that they were making this and that mistake. But don't come and tell us that that's the way Traveller has been all along.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

I am extremely glad that I do not share your restrictive, close-minded, blinkered, extremist, and unsolicited opinion of what Traveller is supposed to be.

Is that because you have your own restrictive, close-minded, blinkered, extremist, and unsolicited opinion of what Traveller is supposed to be?

[I know I do, I just don't have the artwork to post for it.]

 

[scrabble]

Absolutely. Take that pic and place it in the Mercenary book, representing a TL 7-9 world, balkanized, with mercs running around on it.

Very Traveller.

I think you have proven yourself to be a very poor judge of what Traveller is or is not, and fortunately you do not have any power to decide for anyone else what it is or is not either. But you seem to think that you do.

Then again, it is not as if anybody asked you for your opinion about how wrong Mongoose is about whatever it is they do with Traveller, but you incessantly and repeatedly inflict on anyone on any board discussing Mongoose Traveller.

I think we all understand that you do not believe that Mongoose is doing a good job with Traveller. However, you seem to think that repeatedly telling them this and spamming boards with your ranting and dictatorial and falsely-authoritative attitude will persuade anyone to care about what you say. Perhaps you think that you are being helpful, but you are just being extremely irritating and abrasive about it. You seem to forget that you are just another fanboy, and one who is a fan of another edition of the game at that and who is not a fan of the current one. And complaining about art of all things (which is a highly subjective field in itself) as if you have any authority to dictate what is or is not Traveller to anybody else is simply laughable.

It seems to me that you are just looking for things to complain about when it comes to Mongoose Traveller. So perhaps you would like to complain about the spacing of the individual letters in the words of each page of the Mongoose Traveller book next? Or the exact shade of black that they use on the covers? Is the quality of the paper is not "Traveller" enough for you? :rofl:

Well, lucky for you, you're getting your cyberpunk Darrians and Ninja Vargr Jedi wanna be's as art for your Traveller game.

And fortunately for us, we will undoubtedly have you complaining about how everything that Mongoose does is wrong for the next nine years or so. Let us thank the stars that you are here to keep us on the right path! :rofl:

Does it not occur to you that you could be doing something far more useful and constructive with your time if you simply did not partake of the things that you do not like so much? I wonder if you persistently watch TV shows that you hate while fuming and seething about how much better they could be. And then tell everyone around you (who may like the shows that you hate) that they are so terrible and that they are wrong for liking them? When you could perhaps instead not watch them and do something that you do like instead?

If Mongoose are on the "wrong path" according to you then you will just have to accept that. They do not have to march in step with you, and you do not have to march in step with them either. But I doubt that anybody wants to hear you or anyone else shrieking like a religious fanatic on a soapbox about how wrong Mongoose are all the time.

 

[scrabble]

Is that because you have your own restrictive, close-minded, blinkered, extremist, and unsolicited opinion of what Traveller is supposed to be?

Traveller is not supposed to be anything. It is a game that people play, and each time they play it they make it their own.

I do not feel the need to continuously inflict my own view about what I think Traveller is on anybody else and I certainly do not believe that Supplement Four or anybody else has any authority whatsoever to tell me what it should or should not be either. Not even Mongoose or Marc Miller can tell me that, in fact. I can and will do as I please with it.

 

[Supplement Four]

You seem to forget that you are just another fanboy, and one who is a fan of another edition of the game at that and who is not a fan of the current one.

Hey, that's almost a personal attack, and you know that's a no-no on these boards. You are very lucky that I usually don't report people.

I will also remind you that this fanboy, as you crown me, is being heard.

If you truly feel the way you do, then the best thing you can do is ignore me. If I post a new thread and nobody responds to it, then it dies a quick and quiet death, doesn't it?

Obviously, at least some people feel as I do about this. We care about Traveller, and if Mongoose is going to be in charge of its immediate fate, then, in the least, we hope that they "get it right".

We're disappointed when they don't.

 

[aramis]

A non-Traveller look and feel? Look, Mongoose has the right to change Traveller to be anything they want it to be. That's just something we have to accept. And once I realized they didn't want to stick to the old style, I did stop (mostly) trying to tell them that they were making this and that mistake. But don't come and tell us that that's the way Traveller has been all along.


Hans

It's only something we have but three venues to deal with:
1) complain at them
2) complain to MWM
3) organize a boycott.

well, actually, there are a few more, even less reasonable than those...
4) buy out mongoose and force them to quit the license
('tis legal, and ethical, but still unreasonable)

5) go terrorist on them.
(Unlawful, unethical, but could be fun)

6) frame them as anti-Islamic pagans, and let the muslims deal with them

7) shut up and ignore them.

Personally, I think 7 is the least likely to be majority approved by grognards...

 

[Colin]

That they're "Traveller" is your opinion, definitely not mine. But on the DGP point, you're completely wrong.

I own just about all of the DGP stuff, and no pics are fantasy oriented the way the Ninja Vargr and Cyberpunk Darrian are.

I had all of the DGP stuff, once upon a time. And I stand by my assertion. If they had had such paintings, i believe they would have published them.

However, I have come to the conclusion that this argument is pointless. You have a fairly narrow vision of what Traveller is. If that works for you, and your players, then that's fine.

Your vision does not include anything (or practically anything) that Mongoose does, and that's fine too, if it works for you.

However, to come across like some sort of authority on what Traveller is, and say that what Mongoose is doing is NOT Traveller, that's not fine.

You may have a decent claim to know to what Traveller WAS. However, in the Mongoose era, you clearly don't know (or refuse to accept) what it IS.

Have fun with your game. That's all that is important. But please, stop trying to turn people away from Mongoose Traveller with your intense (and in my opinion) misplaced negativity.

You are entitled to your opinion, and you are entitled to express your opinion. However, to do so as constantly as you do, is not useful to anyone. You act as if it's personal, like Mongoose Traveller is a deliberate affront to you. It's not, as far as I can tell. It's just an attempt to redefine a game in order to drive sales. That's what companies do.

Disclaimer: I don't work for Mongoose. I may in the future, but we shall see. I am under no contract to them. I don't even think MgT is the best version of Traveller, nor does it have the best art. I do like it, but I don't loveit. It is, however, available, playable, and new stuff is coming out. I have purchased several books for it, but I am not a completist. I buy what I can use.

 

[Supplement Four]

It's only something we have but three venues to deal with:
1) complain at them
2) complain to MWM
3) organize a boycott.

In between Wil's jests (and, I laughed at them..they were funny), he makes a very good point here.

You've got one thing you love and care about: Your favorite in your favorite hobby, Traveller.

(Using the universal "You".)

You've got a company that, in your opinion, is screwing up your favorite.

If you complain about it, it will probably not change a damn thing.

If you follow Colin's advice and just shut-up, it will definitely not change a thing because you won't be heard.

Between the choices of "no chance" and "a chance", I choose the later.



I lift my glass and shout, "Here's to hoping Mongoose will do a 180 and start treating Traveller RIGHT!"

Here's to a Traveller that we all love, both new and old players.

Viva Las Vegas!

 

[WarriorKnight]

Matt...at a minimum, your MGT deckplans should be on par with these...

http://www.sff.net/people/kitsune/Traveller/images/t20scoutlg.png

See how much better those are than just empty boxes? This is the way DGP used to do theirs (I think this particular deckplan was done for T20).

Upgrade your deckplans to be at least this good, and you'll hear the whole Traveller community smile and pat you on the back.

Actually I'd just like the deckplans to match the drawing.Several in Traders & Gunboats do not match the drawings.(the Assault shuttle & the Prisoner ship come to mind right off the bat.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Actually I'd just like the deckplans to match the drawing.Several in Traders & Gunboats do not match the drawings.(the Assault shuttle & the Prisoner ship come to mind right off the bat.)

Mongoose needs to crawl before it can walk, eh?

Understood.

 

[Colin]

If you follow Colin's advice and just shut-up, it will definitely not change a thing because you won't be heard.

I never said that. What I said was, to you specifically: we get it. You don't like Mongoose Traveller. In fact, it appears to personally offend you.

Your constant attacks on Mongoose Traveller are simply tiresome. Everyone one involved, from the Moderators to the staff at Mongoose to some dude who popped into this board for the first time tonight gets it. You've been heard. Many times. You've made yourself perfectly clear.

I have said that you are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to complain about a product that you don't like. However, you've made your opinion known so often, now, that I can't help but wonder if you are simply trolling.

 

[MongooseFordy]

It's only something we have but three venues to deal with:
1) complain at them

I think you're already doing that one

2) complain to MWM

As far as I know, he's quite happy with what we're doing, but feel free to try

3) organize a boycott.

Certain people are already way ahead of you on this, which is well within their right. But the "what do you mean you're having fun playing Mongoose Traveller? Don't you know it's wrong" attitude only tends to nark people off.

well, actually, there are a few more, even less reasonable than those...
4) buy out mongoose and force them to quit the license
('tis legal, and ethical, but still unreasonable)

You couldn't afford it

5) go terrorist on them.
(Unlawful, unethical, but could be fun)

Bring it on!

6) frame them as anti-Islamic pagans, and let the muslims deal with them

Everyone knows we embrace all creeds, colours and religions, and they would never believe you.

7) shut up and ignore them.

Please let it be this one :smirk:

 

[scrabble]

Hey, that's almost a personal attack, and you know that's a no-no on these boards. You are very lucky that I usually don't report people.

You are a fanboy of Classic Traveller, since you cannot stop telling everyone how great you think it is. You are not a fan of Mongoose Traveller, since you cannot stop telling everyone how wrong you think Mongoose is in its handling of it. If you feel that pointing out your own opinions is "almost a personal attack" then you must have very thin skin.

Or perhaps you seek to hide behind the moderators here with false accusations of personal attacks because the discussion is turning against you?

I will also remind you that this fanboy, as you crown me, is being heard.

So? There are many other annoying sounds that can be heard as well. Monkeys screech in zoos, loud music blares from apartments in the middle of the night, jackhammers batter our eardrums when they dig up roads... and you shriek about Mongoose Traveller. That does not validate them and does not mean that those noises are useful, constructive or even wanted.

If you truly feel the way you do, then the best thing you can do is ignore me. If I post a new thread and nobody responds to it, then it dies a quick and quiet death, doesn't it?

And if you truly feel the way you do, the best thing you can do is to stop wasting your time and do something you enjoy instead. That would also be better for everyone else, since they would no longer have to endure a neverending stream of new complaints that you contrive about what Mongoose does. Playing a roleplaying game is supposed to be an enjoyable leisure activity, do you really have nothing more enjoyable to do than standing on a soapbox shrieking about how you do not like a specific interpretation of a game?

Obviously, at least some people feel as I do about this.

A handful of people. Who are so close-minded that they are not likely to be won over by anything that Mongoose does anyway. So why should they care? There are many more who do approve of what Mongoose does and how they are handling Traveller. Why do you think you are so important that they should listen to you and you alone?

We care about Traveller, and if Mongoose is going to be in charge of its immediate fate, then, in the least, we hope that they "get it right"

"Hope" is one thing. Making demands and constantly denigrating (as you are doing) is another.

We're disappointed when they don't.

No company can satisfy everyone. If you are disappointed, then have the grace to be disappointed quietly. By all means, register your opinion if you feel it is necessary, but at least then have the decency to leave it and go on your way.

This is what a mature and rational person would do. Not complain about their disappointment constantly since the release of the game.

 

[scrabble]

You've got a company that, in your opinion, is screwing up your favorite.

If you complain about it, it will probably not change a damn thing.

If you follow Colin's advice and just shut-up, it will definitely not change a thing because you won't be heard.

Between the choices of "no chance" and "a chance", I choose the later.

Or you could shrug and say "It is not my problem. I have other versions of Traveller that I enjoy and I can continue playing them without anything that Mongoose says affecting them at all".

I suppose that would be too sensible for you though. Perhaps you just enjoy tilting at windmills, or you have nothing better to do with your time.

 

[Border Reiver]

Interestingly enough it makes me wonder, with the Rebellion links, why doesn't Mongoose pick up on some of 2000ad's artists for Traveller B&W illos or are they just too expensive?

Or what about contacting some of the classic Traveller illustrators; Liz Danforth, Blair Reynolds, Dave Deitrick, Tom Peters, Rob Prior, Steve Venters, Mike Vilardi, Brad McDevitt and Bryan Gibson to name but a few. I think most of them would be quite happy to help create a new look/feel for Traveller.

And I like Wooten's work, very Traveller IMO. On the other hand the illustrations in the vehicle guides were made with stock models (many available free) and badly lit. Even if the "artist" had change the models texture it might have made things a bit more original. Not many people would notice though but to me it just felt cheap.

There is lots of great fan art available but Colin is right, it's not a reliable source for publishing (at least not when you have deadlines and are publishing several volumes a month).

 

[MongooseMatt]

Take this pic, for example. It's realistic, thought provoking, believeable, and very, very Traveller.

Isn't that Army of Two?

 

[MongooseMatt]

I lift my glass and shout, "Here's to hoping Mongoose will do a 180 and start treating Traveller RIGHT!"

But the problem, fundamentally, is that we are doing it right, and it is you who has got it wrong. . .

 

[Droptrooper.]

Or you could shrug and say "It is not my problem. I have other versions of Traveller that I enjoy and I can continue playing them without anything that Mongoose says affecting them at all".

I suppose that would be too sensible for you though. Perhaps you just enjoy tilting at windmills, or you have nothing better to do with your time.

For someone that was shouting so recently that everyone should complain about QLI and hope for its closure you're pretty quick to call the kettle black.

In my experience Mongoose will listen to fans but they cannot allow fans to dictate their business practice. The fact that the art for the core book was changed shows how substandard the original was. Yes, if we have a problem with Mongoose's Traveller products let them know but don't expect them to recall them, pulp them and issue shiney new versions :smirk: