moderated live traveller universe.

[MR TEK]

I am going to suggest something, and see if anyone is interested as a designer, or as a consummer.

Everyone has at least heard of what are commonly termed masssivly multiple role playing games. Evequest, neverwinter, dark ages, ect.

I only know of one that is sci based, never seen it, but I would be hard pressed to see traveller work as the core of such a system.

I have also noticed that between a number of web sites, and peoples postings here, many people are working on ideas that could be combined in to a totaly new direction. A direction that would capture the spirit of traveller we all love, AND the independance of traveller judges that make the game so ineresting.

I will outline a proposal over the next several posts that is origional to me, but I think some might find enteresting.

Read on, and learn more.

Mr Tek

 

[MR TEK]

The core of the concept is a server system that syncs up games run by individual game masters.

Things like subsidized merchant routes, fleet movements, and major plotlines would be run by the servers.

A very simple example. Gm posts that “the delta explorer arrives at the star port. He would get a reply instantly, listing all other ships in system, news of the system, and a rough idea of cargos and potential patrons that might me around.

Cargoes, except very specialized or contraband would be generated and tracked by the servers. So outbound cargos would be listed on a mercantile exchange. It would be updated by the server as both new shipments became available, and as GMs players purchased existing lots.
Same at the selling end. Unless the GM was handling the transactions as an unusual cargo of some sort, the cargo master of the players group would enter the mercantile exchange, offer the cargo for sale and take or reject what ever offers the server presents.

Same with passengers. Except for special passengers planted by the GM, passengers come from the server.

This is a tiny taste of the possibility I am imagining.

The fun begings in the next post.

 

[MR TEK]

All of this of course would rely on a set of servers that could handle the traffic generated.

This is where everybody gets to join in and tell me I have a good idea going or that I am full of crap.

The system would be simpler than say Everquest, as the players interactions with the server would only be in specific segments. But the data tracking would be enormous. There would also need to be a staff of artists, programmers, and script writers full time to keep the universe alive.

If enough people like the concept enough, I would be talking about a company to set this all up and maintain it.

I would say that a GM or at least a GM and her party would sign up as a group. Most of the interaction would be condensed reports delivered to the GM, with some possible settings where that players would interact either with NPCs, or possibly even bars, and maybe set piece adventures that players from multiple parties would share.

Each GM would run his own game with it’s own plotlines, but the plotlines would have to never change anything big enough to break the major plot lines. The idea would be to allow the gm as much freedo as possible while allowing the system to keep track of the background.

So, the point of this monologue is:
Would anyone be interested in Game mastering using such a system, or being a player in such a system.
And the related questions:
Would anyone find programming, storyline plotting, tech support, database maintenance or any of the other myriad tasks that would be required to even attempt such a project an interesting job. (To be practical this would have to be incorporated as company with full time employees and a full time always up server farm.)

Yes, unbelievably ambitious. I am soliciting people’s opinions, but this in no way precludes my rights to develop such an idea, or anyone else to do the same thing with out me. Right now I just want to test the waters, and see if anyone is interested. If not I can file it with all of my other bright ideas that were not ready for prime time.

If there is interest, I would be happy to right up a more formal and detailed description. It is way to early to talk specifics, but if any of the far futures folks have suggestions, or specific needs or requirements, please feel free to contact me.

Personal email address is mrtek_computing@comcast.net.

Peace

Mr TEk

Jim Roker

Tucson, Az

 

[vutpakdi]

A few points...

The MMORPG market is kinda saturated right now with the number of games on the market or coming to market. I think the saturation is part of the reason that Warhammer Online got cancelled.

I believe that there are two sci-fi-ish games: Star Wars Galaxies and some other game whose name escapes me right now.

Far Future Enterprises would definitely have to be involved if the game is to be based on Traveller since you'd have to get licensing permission from them.

I think that the only way that multiple game masters would work is that they would have to be employed full time. Volunteer game masters would likely mean a number of servers having game masters that would start out with a flash and then quickly fade away as interests wane. Economically having games closely run by individual game masters will probably not work too well, especially on a part time basis. I'm at my limit running a PBEM game for 8 right now. You'd have to get quite a few groups together or charge more than people would be likely willing to pay to make the economics work out.

Ron

 

[flykiller]

there is also the issue of how many people actually play traveller.

 

[MR TEK]

That is the big question. Do enough play to make the idea worthwhile?

As to full time game masters, here locally we had a storefront experiment with charging a fee for game space. The game master would collect a fee per player, and part of the fee went to the shop, and part covered the expenses of the game master, (little more than enough to round out his library, and maybe a game aide or two.)

For a couple of folks with zero business experience, no marketing at all and part time to boot, it was reasonably successful, until the original owner needed to devote more time to his personal life, and nobody else picked up the ball.

Full time paid staff Game masters would certainly solve several issues, (preventing storylines that broke the background lines and a consistency of product) but expenses would multiply rapidly.

As for the saturation of the market, there are two chief counters to that, but I need a good gauge here to know if they are enough.

From the web presence, Traveller seems second only to D and D in the loyalty and sheer staying power of it's audience, and having live moderators, with the removal of limits on players actions caused be limitations of the programming, is certainly different than anything else that exists.

And, I have already asked far Future directly to tell me what they need for licensing if I use their mechanics. Frankly, the Traveller community is so disperse right now, but it seems to be the biggest potential audience out there, so unless Far Futures is willing, I don't see enough market to make this happen.

So the first and last question here is, does anybody here like the IDEA of such a game, and assuming the multiple miracles that any venture of this scale would require happen, would anybody be interested in playing such a thing, or in being part of the team that sets it up and runs it?

In the short time this has been up, two people have already commented with ideas that suggest they have seriously considered the practicality of such a venture, so it seems I am not as far over the edge as I was afraid of.

Any other comments are GREATLY appreciated. If I am to pursue this, it is going to be a very great deal of work for me, and I need a feel for if anybody at all would be interested in the product.

Thank you to those that have already written, that kind of advice is exactly what I need to figure outif I am wasting my time or not.

Thank you all

Peace

Jim Roker

 

[brudin]

in fact one game like traveller exist already, EVE online are a sci-fi mmorpg with possibilty to play a merchant or a bounty hunter or a scientist,etc ....

 

[ScottB]

Originally posted by Mr TeK:
I only know of one that is sci based, never seen it, but I would be hard pressed to see traveller work as the core of such a system.

There are a few online sci-fi MMORPGs - Star Wars: Galaxies, Planetfall (actually an MMOFPS), Anarchy Online, and Eve Online all come to mind, and I'm pretty sure there's more. I guess City of Heroes kind of counts, but it's superhero rather than straight scifi so a bit of a special case. Back before World War II Online was released, there was a rumour that the development house doing that game were interested in doing Traveller Online, but since WWIIOL ended up being pretty poor it's probably just as well nothing ever came of it AFAIK.

There are two basic problems I see with Traveller as a commercial MMORPG. The first is market saturation, as already mentioned - MMORPGs are very expensive to develop in both money and time, so they need to be guaranteed commercial successes to get backing. I don't know if Traveller fits that bill.

The second is gameplay. MMORPGs make their money through monthly subscription fees, and so gameplay is set up to attract players who will basically become addicted. This means they pretty much all use a levelling mechanism (even the skill-based ones) that make PCs exponentially more powerful as they play more. Traveller doesn't lend itself well to this sort of game style - in fact, none of the pen-and-paper RPGs do, IMHO.

Now, I personally would love an MMORPG where your character advanced slowly (if at all) after character creation, and I'd grab a Traveller MMORPG in a heartbeat. But I don't believe there are enough people like that in the market for MMORPGs to support development of such a game. So unless it's done for free - and I think there are a few volunteer MMORPG development projects out there - I don't expect to see anything like that. And if it is done on a volunteer basis, I wouldn't expect to see anything soon.

 

[robject]

I think Scott's right: the nature of a Traveller universe is such that, if it really tries to approximate Traveller, it might not attract many people.

My idea of a Traveller sim is in fact counter to the addiction rule: folks like me don't have huge blocks of time to dally in MMORPGs; we have 30 minutes here and there and there, and that's it. I want a persistent world with player interaction, but I don't want a time requirement.

I developed a working prototype last year, which suffered from deliberate design shortcuts (in order to get it to a playable point). The next step was to design an open protocol that Traveller game servers would implement, thus making it possible for anyone to write servers and clients as they like. And since life takes priority, that project is stalled.

The sample protocol (and the database schema too, if you're interested) is documented at:

http://home.comcast.net/~downport/etc/tol/

 

[flykiller]

we have 30 minutes here and there and there, and that's it. I want a persistent world with player interaction, but I don't want a time requirement.

a bulletin-board game.

 

[MR TEK]

Well,

The core of what i had in mind was a database of ship movements, and cargos, so that the groups interested in trade have a system running. That way entering a port, you would get the ships in system, and a mercantile exchange, that at least had a "live" feel to it.

Then a background story of big events that are happening in "real-time" (I suspect game time would flow at a different rate. 2x or 4x real-time maybe, the point being, it was constant.)

To this level, it could be a server or set of servers, and could probably be a network that a couple of individuals could maintain, and even could work as a volunteer system, or maybe donations, to support the server time.

The purpose of going to a moderated system, is sooner or later some GM would decide, or some group would insist on doing something big enough that it would alter the major plot lines. At that point, it would become a real headache to integrate all of those effects. That would take more time and energy that a person with a job would be able to devote.

Conversely, co-opting game masters to be paid moderators, would mean that their JOBS would be to

A: Maintain the background story lines, and
B: Prevent PCs from disturbing events enough to massively alter the background, at least without breaking the continuity for others playing in the universe.

So, setting up a game setting, either based on the official Traveller universe, or one custom built for this setting would be a big project, but not that much bigger that other collaborative works people are discussing.

Then just a big database to track everything, it would give reports on ships in system, when you arrive at a new port, cargos available at the merch exchange, and handle the buying and selling of cargos. And propagate major events thought the game, (system to system, in game-time,) via a news feed, similar to Traveller news service.

To this point, once the database are completed, and set in motion, the only ongoing effort would be space to host the databases, and bandwidth for people to connect, someone to monitor and maintain backups and assure the database integrity, and at least on author to keep feeding events to the background story lines.

Mr Tek

 

[MR TEK]

The next possable layer would be individual bars, implemented as chat rooms, or if really ambitious, MUDs, or a derivative. This is the point that at least a few people would have to make their living from maintaining such system. It MIGHT be possible to run a large scale web site, supported by advertising, but I for one truly dislike ad-supported sites. That leaves a subscription fee.

At this level, we would not have anything even vaguely like a MMORPG, but we would also still be playing face to face and feeding data to the system, and the GM getting data back. Gearheads might have a field day, but how would others feel about this sort of system?

JIm

 

[MR TEK]

The 3rd level, would be something similar to a Grips type. (As I understand it, never having used the product.)

On the game engine end, nothing would change. The Game Master would run a server that handled the game from his system, the players would run a client that displayed whatever the GM sent them, and the data from our engine would be one input that the GM could send out to the players.

If we used Grips, then just licensing the product, and providing copies as part of the subscription fees would handle it.

This is the sort of game I had in mind. It DEFINATLY would NOT play or feel ANYTHING like a traditional MMORPG. It would still feel more like a traditional pen and paper game with computer enhancements. It still brings us back to the same dilemma however. Either each GM has his own dedicated group, and times of play, or if we expand it to the next step that there are floating GMs and you can join a game at the start. Adventures would then have to be small enough to complete in one setting and people popping in and out would have to be dealt with. I would say no new players in once it begins, but if someone lost a link, the system would have to allow them to rejoin.

The Game Masters would defiantly need to become part of the company, in order for us to expect them to consistently put in the work needed and be available to run the games all around the clock.

A side benefit would be that these would become “professional” Game Masters. We have run games this way locally, where a shop provided space and some game aids for a fee, and the Game Master charged the players. Many, (not all) Game Masters, because they were getting paid, a nominal sum, put more effort into crafting a more complete session, and had an incentive to be more prepared to run their game. Since the players paid for the time, they also expected a higher level of effort from the Game Master.

At this level, you would then start to have to deal with recruiting, and training game masters, and all of yje issues that go with a large group of employees. We Might get away with treating them as contractors, but we would still have to get feedback on the games they ran, and be sure that they are meeting standards.

Jim

 

[MR TEK]

If we expand to the next level we would APPROCH a traditional massive online RPG. It would still be different from traditional games. While there could be interactions between players in different “missions,” it would still be funneled through the game master.

First and foremost, while individual missions might be similar in outline, there would never be a repeating plotline. None of this canned adventure where you complete the same quest as every previous group, and the same bad guys reset. There would have to be some generic bad guys that get names at the moment the system or more properly, the gamemaster calls for them, but once an NPC dies, he is gone forever, and any thing the PCs do becomes events in the story lines.

Now we have reached the plateau. It is STILL not a traditional MMORPG, but close enough that players from such a game would at least comprehend it. It would require a full time staff writing the story lines, and churning out shell adventures, with enough information that the Game Master could form a session with ease. Most “missions” would be variations of a few standard themes, so that the task of writing them would be manageable.

This is the level I suspect people were thinking I was proposing from the beginning. It actually more than I had in mind, and would indeed be a competitor in a difficult market, but it would be different enough to REALLY stand out, and would defiantly NOT be like anything else out there.

It would also require all of the MASSIVE capital, equipment, Servers, backups, development system, etc.) and staffing that would make this a major (,think EarthLink or similar sized effort) undertaking.

The previous levels are more what I had in mind. While they are much less investment, both in capital and equipment, their strengths are also their weaknesses. They are vastly different in both scope and feel from anything, ANYONE has ever produced before. Their interest is unknown, and therefore not quantifiable in anyway that would attract investors.

I have seen a couple of posts that support these levels, and the lowest levels are not any bigger than simply integrating projects that several threads have already suggested.

These represent in essence five separate possibilities to run an interactive Traveller universe. I have attempted to at least address the most basic pros and cons of each.

Each level is a completely separate concept, though I suppose if we were aiming for the top version, it might be possible to start smaller and scale through each level as the underlying work got done and interest grew.

I am not going to drop names, but Far horizons has at least been positive to the concept of a moderated universe, and has expressed a willingness to discuss licensing, if such a project were to launch.

I have heard several reservations, but the thread is living on, so at least a couple if people are interested enough to comment.

I am going to make a request. If you do like something (,or even dislike) that I have proposed, please address a specific scenario. It will help me gage what level people would be interested in, and makes certain we are all talking about the same thing.

So far, no one has indicated that they think that I am off topic here, or even that they dislike the idea, the only negatives I have gotten are reasons why this idea would not be practical. I don’t know if any of these ideas could reach a practical stage, but again, several of you have at least been willing to discuss the idea, so I must not be completely full of ____.

Anyway, ALL thoughts, even that I AM full of it, are welcome. I will never be able to decide to move forward with out enough interest, (and having many of you joining me, even the most minimal databases, I can write them, but generating enough data to make them valuable is beyond one person,) and I have spent enough time thinking about this, that unless I get slapped in the face REALLY hard, I will never let go of the idea completely.

So, good bad or indifferent, even insulting, I WANT to know why people like this, why they don’t, even a different concept that might make more sense, or simply telling me to sit down and shut up. I want to here what you have to say.

Well, there is my pitch, I guess I sit back now and see who swings at it.

Peace

Mr TeK

If you want to talk with me directly, my email is mrtek2003@yahoo.com.

 

[flykiller]

1) what would such a system offer that is not already obtained in face-to-face, chat room, or bulletin-board games?

2) traveller's kind of big. no matter how much one prepares one is always unprepared. players ask questions or take actions that require far-reaching on-the-spot rulings that must be remembered and implemented for the remainder of the campaign. one person coordinating this open-ended growth is hard enough, but multiple groups and multiple referees all interacting real-time or semi-realtime in a shared environment will soon create a very tangled web of inconsistent rulings.

3) how will part-time players interact with other part-time players who sign on at different times? and how will a person who signs on half an hour a day interact with someone who signs on eight hours a day on weekends?

4) rpg players come and go, referees come and go, people go on vacations for a month or get married or get jobs. games fail all the time. when it's all free and voluntary people accept this and take their chances, but will paying subscribers accept this?