Most Efficient Ship by TL for Cargo to X Parsecs

[Grav_Moped]

Everything that has no time constraints put on its delivery time by the shipper. Otherwise no.

Which was what I was getting at by asking about (what it's worth/what it costs) to ship by faster methods.

If the cost of faster shipping exceeds the value of faster shipping, it won't happen.

There will be some cargoes that can't wait a month and a half to go three parsecs. I'm thinking it'll be some inverse proportion (half will pay to go twice as fast, a third to go three times as fast, etc.) but that's just a wild guess.

Passengers would probably pay extra to cut down travel time. I'll know better what the time premium has to be when I get to that part of crunching the numbers.


We're sort of looking at a split like that between rail, truck, and air shipping.

There's also the effect of the time value of money. If it takes five weeks (standard two week Jump ops tempo) for the freight to get to its destination three parsecs away, and another week for the payment to get back to you via XBoat, that's 6 weeks that your investment in whatever you're shipping isn't in your bank earning interest. Doing it as a J-3 gets your money back to you a month sooner. Not sure how much it'll change things, but it might matter. If your freight is High-Tech Space Soybeans, probably not much. If it's Zuchai Crystals, it definitely will.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Missed the edit window on the Jump 3 Ships.
Please disregard that post (#42 in this thread).

I think I'll just start over and stat them all by cost to distance.

Again, these are all LBB2 RAW.

They're all:
- Streamlined, and except for the TL-9 400Td J-2 ship, use custom hulls.
- Armed with one triple turret with a beam laser, a missile launcher, and a sandcaster.
- 1G, and whatever Jn is specified. Drive sizes are listed. Crew is in single staterooms.
- Equipped with the minimum computer necessary for the specified Jn. Since this is LBB2, there is no minimum computer requirement by hull size.
- Constructed as part of a class of ships, qualifying for the 10% discount.

I didn't include the architect's fees. Oops.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-1 Ships:

                           Class   Cost to    Cost/Dist/
TL  Tons    Drives Payload Cost    Distance   Payload Ton
9    800       D      619    68.39 
                                   1: 423438     684
                                   2: 846876    1368
                                   3:1270314    2052
                                   4:1693752    2736
                                   5:2117190    3420
                                   6:2540628    4104
10   1000       E      793   208.44 
                                   1: 514127     648
                                   2:1028254    1297
                                   3:1542381    1945
                                   4:2056508    2593
                                   5:2570635    3242
                                   6:3084762    3890
11   2000       J     1605   394.29  
                                   1: 985203     614
                                   2:1970406    1228
                                   3:2955609    1842
                                   4:3940812    2455
                                   5:4926015    3069
                                   6:5911218    3683
13   3000       Q     2417   617.49 
                                   1:1516948     628
                                   2:3033896    1255
                                   3:4550844    1883
                                   4:6067792    2510
                                   5:7584740    3138
                                   6:9101688    3766
15   5000       W     3973   959.49	
                                   1:2480824     624
                                   2:4961648    1249
                                   3:7442472    1873
                                   4:9923296    2498
                                   5:12404120   3122
                                   6:14884944   3747

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-2 Ships

                           Class   Cost to    Cost/Dist/
TL  Tons    Drives Payload Cost    Distance   Payload Ton
9    400     D,B     204    99.99      (Uses 400Td standard hull, wastes 9Td)
                                   1:  255807   1254
                                   2:  280807   1377
                                   3:  536614   2630
                                   4:  561614   2753
                                   5:  817421   4007
                                   6:  842421   4130

10   800     H,D     493    235.44
                                   1:  567284   1151
                                   2:  612284   1242
                                   3: 1179568   2393
                                   4: 1224568   2484
                                   5: 1791852   3635
                                   6: 1836852   3726

11  1000      H,D    635   292.14
                                   1:  697590   1099
                                   2:  752590   1185
                                   3: 1450180   2284
                                   4: 1505180   2370
                                   5: 2202770   3469
                                   6: 2257770   3556

15  5000      Z,W   3439  1009.89
                                   1: 2585262    752
                                   2: 2840262    826
                                   3: 5425524   1578
                                   4: 5680524   1652
                                   5: 8265786   2404
                                   6: 8520786   2478

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-3 Ships:

Jump-3 Ships
                   Tons  MCr-10%                 Cost/Dist
TL   Tons Drives Payload Discount Cost to Dist   Payload Ton   
 9    200  C,A      40    92.79   
                                   1:  221642      5541
                                   2:  231642      5791
                                   3:  249142      6229
                                   4:  470784     11770
                                   5:  480784     12020
                                   6:  498284     12457

10    400  F,B     175   133.74   
                                   1:  323129      1846
                                   2:  343129      1961
                                   3:  370629      2118
                                   4:  693758      3964
                                   5:  713758      4079
                                   6:  741258      4236
     
11    600   J,C    256   239.94   
                                   1:  566832      2214
                                   2:  596832      2331
                                   3:  634332      2478
                                   4: 1201164      4692
                                   5: 1231164      4809
                                   6: 1268664      4956
12    800   M,D    366   313.29   
                                   1:  736546      2012
                                   2:  776546      2122
                                   3:  824046      2251
                                   4: 1560592      4264
                                   5: 1600592      4373
                                   6: 1648092      4503
13   1000   Q,E    480   386.19   
                                   1:  901225      1878
                                   2:  951225      1982
                                   3: 1008725      2102
                                   4: 1909950      3979
                                   5: 1959950      4083
                                   6: 2017450      4203
15   4000   Z,W   2288   914.49   
                                   1: 2294643      1003
                                   2: 2494643      1090
                                   3: 2702143      1181
                                   4: 4996786      2184
                                   5: 5196786      2271
                                   6: 5404286      2362

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-4 Ships:

                           Class   Cost to    Cost/Dist/
TL  Tons    Drives Payload Cost    Distance   Payload Ton
10   400     H,B      74   210.24
                                  1:  493815     6673
                                  2:  513815     6943
                                  3:  533815     7214
                                  4:  563815     7619
                                  5: 1057630    14292
                                  6: 1077630    14563
12   600     M,C     156   299.79
                                  1:  697902     4474
                                  2:  727902     4666
                                  3:  757902     4858
                                  4:  797902     5115
                                  5: 1495804     9588
                                  6: 1525804     9781
14   800     R,D     238   389.34
                                  1:  901988     3790
                                  2:  941988     3958
                                  3:  981988     4126
                                  4: 1031988     4336
                                  5: 1933976     8126
                                  6: 1973976     8294
15  3000     Z,W    1348   795.69
                                  1: 1954374     1450
                                  2: 2104374     1561
                                  3: 2254374     1672
                                  4: 2414374     1791
                                  5: 4368748     3241
                                  6: 4518748     3352

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-5 Ships:

                            Class   Cost to    Cost/Dist/
TL  Tons     Drives Payload Cost    Distance   Payload Ton
11   400      K,B     57    256.14
                                   1: 591205      84458
                                   2:  611205     87315
                                   3:  631205     90172
                                   4:  651205     93029
                                   5:  683705     97672
                                   6: 1274910    182130
13   600      Q,C     61    361.89
                                   1:  829665     13601
                                   2:  859665     14093
                                   3:  889665     14585
                                   4:  919665     15076
                                   5:  962165     15773
                                   6: 1791830     29374
15  1000      W,E    201    508.59
                                   1: 1169093      5816
                                   2: 1219093      6065
                                   3: 1269093      6314
                                   4: 1319093      6563
                                   5: 1381593      6874
                                   6: 2550686     12690

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-6 Ship:

                            Class   Cost to    Cost/Dist/
TL  Tons     Drives Payload Cost    Distance   Payload Ton
15  2000      Z,W     425   671.94
                                   1: 1584059      3727
                                   2: 1684059      3962
                                   3: 1784059      4198
                                   4: 1884059      4433
                                   5: 1984059      4668
                                   6: 2099059      4939

 

[mike wightman]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow, thanks for all the work you have put into it.

I can now see why the OTU has a per jump price for the free trader minigame.

In the TL15 Imperium there are going to be a large number of TL11 2kt freighters serving the jump 1 routes, the jump 2 routes are best served by TL15 5kt freighters - both will make a nice profit, enough to subsidies the slight loss from the TL15 4kt jump 3 ship.

Speaking of subsidies have you considered how the subsidised merchant lines bring down the per jump costs?

 

[Grav_Moped]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow, thanks for all the work you have put into it.

I can now see why the OTU has a per jump price for the free trader minigame.

In the TL15 Imperium there are going to be a large number of TL11 2kt freighters serving the jump 1 routes, the jump 2 routes are best served by TL15 5kt freighters - both will make a nice profit, enough to subsidies the slight loss from the TL15 4kt jump 3 ship.

Speaking of subsidies have you considered how the subsidised merchant lines bring down the per jump costs?

I'm seeing it the other way. Unless TL-15 is available within reasonable range, everything moves at Jump-1 or Jump-2 (depending on whether it's an odd or even number of parsecs). That means the cargo fees should be on a per-parsec basis rather than per-jump, because the cheapest trip is built from a series of Jump-1s if over-tanked J-1 ships doing back-to-back Jumps can substitute for J-2 ships on 2-parsec trip segments. In other words, the minimum cost scales linearly with distance, while the cost of longer jumps goes up drastically with Jump Number.

Either there needs to be a promptness bonus for longer Jumps, or there just won't be any Jump-3 or higher bulk-cargo commerce until TL-15 is commonly available.

At least that's my guess based on minimum possible costs.

My next step is to try to figure out what the promptness bonus has to be in order for Jump-3 through -5 commerce to be viable without Size Z drives. Maybe it can't be.

 

[Grav_Moped]

In the TL-11 "broad middle", the cost difference between a Jump-2 and 2 Jump-1s is under +4%. The difference between a Jump-3 and 3 Jump-1s is +35%.

If shippers are paying a flat rate per Jump, either the low-jump ships will rake it in hand over fist, or the high-jump ships won't bother with flat-rate cargo because they'll lose money on it.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's take a closer look at the external trade of the Mora system.

We have to consider terrain. Can we always use J-1 ships?

Look at the Mora-Heroni route. We can use a direct J-6 route or a slower J-2 route e.g. Mora - Fornice - Catuz* - Mercury - Byret - Heroni, a total of 5 jumps and 10 parcek. Since Catuz has a C starport it has no refined fuel, so we will lose ships to misjumps.

Given the tables above a single J-6 would cost Cr 4939 and five J-2 would cost 5 × Cr 826 = Cr 4130. Adjusting for the time cost and risk of losing ships and crews, I guess the route will be dominated by J-6 ships, despite superficially being more expensive.

 

[Condottiere]

I'm sorta reminded that trade should be a two way street, or at least, that the freighter has some freight waiting for it at destination.

If there isn't, rates should double.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Cost multiplier of distance by Tech Level:

Dist   TL-9   TL-10  TL-11  TL-12  TL-13  TL-14  TL-15
  1    1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00
  2    2.00   1.92   1.93   1.93   1.93   1.93   1.35
  3    3.00   3.00   3.00   3.00   3.00   3.00   1.92
  4    4.00   3.83   3.86   3.86   3.86   3.86   2.69
  5    5.00   5.00   5.00   5.00   5.00   5.00   3.70
  6    6.00   5.75   5.79   5.79   5.79   5.79   3.85

This is how many times more than the least-expensive J-1 rates it costs to ship to 1-6 parsecs, where the indicated TL is the highest available.

Notes:
The reason the multipliers are higher in the "broad middle" (TLs 11-14) is that the baseline J-1 rate is lowered by the TL-11 J-1, 2000Td ship.
At TL-9, J-2 costs more than J-1 on even-numbered distances as well, while it's a few percent cheaper than J-1 at all other TLs.
The TL-11 J-1, 2000Td ship beats the TL-15, 5000Td ship only because LBB2 won't let you build a ship big enough that a Jump Drive Z only yields Jump-1. If LBB2 allowed a 10,000Td hull, that ship would basically own J-1 bulk shipping.

 

[mike wightman]

Just have a 5000t jump 2 ship attach itself to a 5000t cargo module...

The 'true' limit of LBB2 is a 12kt jump 1 at TL15

 

[Grav_Moped]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow, thanks for all the work you have put into it.

Quite welcome! It's been an interesting exercise, and I'm not done yet...

And I appreciate everyone's feedback, even if that appreciation doesn't always come across well in text. Another Dilbert caught several spots where I'd missed something.

Speaking of subsidies have you considered how the subsidised merchant lines bring down the per jump costs?

Basically, the Type M in service puts a ceiling on cargo rates. Whatever it might actually cost to deliver freight on any given J-1 route (typically on a J-1 Main), as soon as a world puts a subsidized M on that route the highest anyone can charge for non-time-critical bulk freight is Cr1000/parsec.

And since under the LBB2 trade rules it can't always fill its hold with bulk freight, it can basically capture the entire weekly bulk freight market (at least the subset of that market in which PCs operate, which may exclude the lowest-cost ships that I examine here). That is, the 2000Td freighter sweeps through charging Cr614/ton, leaving whatever the trade minigame says is available to the PCs. The PCs should be able to charge enough to cover their costs for what they can carry if they're the only ship available (and if they're in a Type A2, that's over Cr1000/ton). Having a Type M on the route means that shippers can just wait for the Cr1000/ton Type M to come around again, if it's more frequent than the 2000-tonner.

In small markets, the trade minigame is probably the entire freight market rather than the leftovers from the most-efficient freighters.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Just have a 5000t jump 2 ship attach itself to a 5000t cargo module...

The 'true' limit of LBB2 is a 12kt jump 1 at TL15

I'm going with rules as written, so no cargo modules.

Ok, I see where you get 12kTd: the Z Drive should yield J-2 in a 6000Td hull, not just the 5000Td hull that's the maximum listed.

Those Z Drives are better than I thought, and I was already impressed. TL-15 means something!

 

[Grav_Moped]

Cost multiplier of distance by Tech Level:

It looks pretty close to costs being linear by distance. TL-15 seems close to linear by (2/3 * distance) but I need to do the math on it.

So far, it looks like it really does suggest per-parsec pricing rather than per-jump.

The next step is to calculate the cost multiplier for distance is if it's done in a single jump, when TL allows it. That is, how much more expensive it is to ship in a single jump than to ship via multiple jumps. This will probably be what drives baseline passenger ticket prices.

Somewhere after that, I'll start looking at over-tanked ships doing back-to-back jumps as substitutes for higher-Jn ships, to address AD's subsector geography issues.

Eventually I'll get around to the LBB5 version of this, and the LBB5-using-LBB2-drives (and maybe standard hulls) version, and compare them all.

 

[Proneutron]

It looks pretty close to costs being linear by distance. TL-15 seems close to linear by (2/3 * distance) but I need to do the math on it.

So far, it looks like it really does suggest per-parsec pricing rather than per-jump.

The next step is to calculate the cost multiplier for distance is if it's done in a single jump, when TL allows it. That is, how much more expensive it is to ship in a single jump than to ship via multiple jumps. This will probably be what drives baseline passenger ticket prices.

Somewhere after that, I'll start looking at over-tanked ships doing back-to-back jumps as substitutes for higher-Jn ships, to address AD's subsector geography issues.

Eventually I'll get around to the LBB5 version of this, and the LBB5-using-LBB2-drives (and maybe standard hulls) version, and compare them all.

Look forward to this data. I have a down and dirty per parsec freight cost but not by TL and not vs Jump and no passenger cost

 

[Grav_Moped]

Look forward to this data. I have a down and dirty per parsec freight cost but not by TL and not vs Jump and no passenger cost

Passenger costs are (cost of 4Td cargo+Cr2000 in life support+Cr1000 in financed cost of the stateroom) per passenger per two-week jump cycle. It is dependent on the opportunity cost of the cargo displaced by the 4Td stateroom.

(This is also the cost of one crew member's quarters and life support, excluding salary.)

High passage costs are (( 1.125[1] X cost of passenger) + Cr188[2]) per jump cycle.
If counted separately from the above calculation, each steward costs (cost of passenger + Cr1500[3]).

Low passage costs are (cost of 0.5Td cargo + Cr100 in financed cost of low berth (2 weeks) + Cr100 per use).

Notes:
[1] This is the passenger's stateroom and life support, plus 1/8 of the steward's stateroom and life support since 1 steward supports 8 high passengers.
[2] This is half the monthly salary of a steward, divided by 8 high passengers
[3] This is half the monthly salary of a steward.