FFE by definition doesn't need one; it's Marc W. Miller's DBA...
Moving past the 3rd Imperium
- Thread starter jackleg
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FFE by definition doesn't need one; it's Marc W. Miller's DBA...
Chimeras? Where's my plus one gladius? You know, the light saber kind?
Right over there, next to the Bag of Portal-Holding and the Mark VII Battleaxe of Wounding...
But maybe your sort of chimerae should be discussed in the Wanderer thread.
S
scrabble
Guest
I have been doing that throughout this thread. Your posts were phrased in a very demanding way (and you kept repeating your demands), as if anyone who criticized or commented on anything here was first required to spend a lot of time coming up with their own background for their comments to be valid. That is of course not true.
I do not believe you have any authority to tell me what I can or cannot discuss on this thread. I see no reason why this thread should be devoted to a single vision of the future, since the OP was asking a general question about the direction in which the OTU could take. As far as I can see, this topic is open for everyone to discuss their ideas for the future (and I have been discussing the kind of future I would want to see), and if anything I think that focussing on a specific vision would "derail" the thread more than anything else.
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My vision shares some of Scrabble's thoughts. Virus will evolve, and the non-pathological ones which survive will have to find a way to integrate into interstellar society. What sorts of shapes that may take is an interesting thought problem.
But there are backward implications here as well. As we all know, Traveller has flirted with AI from the early years.
As Bill mentioned in another thread, Traveller assumes a kind of invisible pedestrian AI. The kind that cooks meals, keeps rooms clean, automates factories, constructs buildings, starships, and the like. And humans still manage to keep the same motivations that they've always had. Thanks to the UWP generation system, there are high-tech worlds that could house these AI systems even in the Classic Imperium, just as there are low-tech worlds where manual labor is the only way to get things done.
And so I think that Virus is just a barbarian AI that evolves into various ecological niches for the sake of long-term survival. And its ecology, unlike most creatures in Traveller, is technology.
But there are backward implications here as well. As we all know, Traveller has flirted with AI from the early years.
As Bill mentioned in another thread, Traveller assumes a kind of invisible pedestrian AI. The kind that cooks meals, keeps rooms clean, automates factories, constructs buildings, starships, and the like. And humans still manage to keep the same motivations that they've always had. Thanks to the UWP generation system, there are high-tech worlds that could house these AI systems even in the Classic Imperium, just as there are low-tech worlds where manual labor is the only way to get things done.
And so I think that Virus is just a barbarian AI that evolves into various ecological niches for the sake of long-term survival. And its ecology, unlike most creatures in Traveller, is technology.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Sorry folks, big train wreck ahead, this area is temporarily closed until we can get it cleaned up. Try again later.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
READ THIS
Excuse the interruption.
I was loathe to do this earlier seeing as there was an appearance of the fires dieing out in this thread and I may have be just throwing gasoline on it. But no, it flared up again so the air needs to be cleared.
There have been some less than constructive posts here, and complaints made by more than one Citizen.
Warnings have been issued and it is hoped that even those who didn't get one but contributed will take heed. I'm quite confident you know where you went over the line, and regret it at least a little.
Everyone should be on notice that things are going to be run a little tighter around here, and this notice will be repeated elsewhere for the whole community. It should not have to come to this, again. The ability to connect and type here should indicate a level of sufficient maturity to be polite but there is far too much crap being posted to support that. Some of it is down to a simply failing to reign in responses to trolls. Guilty. That ends, now, I hope.
But if Warnings don't work Bans will. And the method of Warning is under review as well. You might not like the new ideas if they are adopted and you run afoul of them. Remember, everyone is here on their graces, that's what you signed up for, and if you can't be civil you will be sent packing. It doesn't matter if you have money down either, for anything, a subscription or access to T5 or whatever, that doesn't excuse crossing the line or buy you a pass. Complaints are one thing and acceptable when valid, abuse is another matter entirely and won't be tolerated.
Ah yes, "the line" that some have a hard time seeing. Let's be clear, it isn't always a sharp line and it is subject to interpretation. So your best practice is to always stay well back from it, not to dance and tightrope walk along it. And if you should happen to stumble and worry that maybe you fell over the line your best defense is a quick and contrite apology and/or edit of your post. If you do that before too much damage is done or a moderator sees it you'll probably be forgiven. Clear? Good.
Also note there are some very well defined points on that line though and crossing them won't get you a Warning. They'll get you a Ban. If you're not sure you know them review the FAQ and TOS. I think that needs repeating and enhancement...
If you're not sure you know them, review the FAQ and TOS.
Heck, even if you are sure you know them it's a good idea to review them now and then. They are subject to change. Your memory may not be what you think it is. You may have confused another site's rules with this one's. Go read them now. I'll wait for you to come back...
One exception I'm willing to grant though the other Mods may not, is the Banned user sock-puppet account. And even then under only a very limited usage and still subject to instant Ban. That is until/if the site is once again made fully open for reading without an account. If a sock-puppet account is simply used to lurk and read you're not going to be in trouble with me. Unless it's found that you're using it in some disruptive way. You might even get away with joining in discussions but you can expect to be under tighter scrutiny and be cut no slack at all. If it looks like the account is a sock-puppet and the user is up to the same or similar stuff that got them a Ban in the first place they shouldn't be at all surprised when they are banned again. And you should expect to be blocked or banned on sight thereafter. A second chance is just that. There should be no third chances needed. And they won't be given. Don't blow it if you find you need it. But you really shouldn't need it.
I've had some feedback on this, have edited it, and wish to add some thoughts from that feedback.
None of us want to Ban anyone. What we want are interesting, even lively, discussions of Traveller in all it's permutations and combinations. If you have something to contribute, throw it in. If you don't, then sit back and read and enjoy. If something angers or annoys you DO NOT reply. Don't try to moderate it yourself as tempting as it may be. Just use the report button. Let us screw it up instead. It's what we're paid the big bucks for
The road ahead is clear again, let's try to keep it that way, carry on then, nicely.
Excuse the interruption.
I was loathe to do this earlier seeing as there was an appearance of the fires dieing out in this thread and I may have be just throwing gasoline on it. But no, it flared up again so the air needs to be cleared.
There have been some less than constructive posts here, and complaints made by more than one Citizen.
Warnings have been issued and it is hoped that even those who didn't get one but contributed will take heed. I'm quite confident you know where you went over the line, and regret it at least a little.
Everyone should be on notice that things are going to be run a little tighter around here, and this notice will be repeated elsewhere for the whole community. It should not have to come to this, again. The ability to connect and type here should indicate a level of sufficient maturity to be polite but there is far too much crap being posted to support that. Some of it is down to a simply failing to reign in responses to trolls. Guilty. That ends, now, I hope.
But if Warnings don't work Bans will. And the method of Warning is under review as well. You might not like the new ideas if they are adopted and you run afoul of them. Remember, everyone is here on their graces, that's what you signed up for, and if you can't be civil you will be sent packing. It doesn't matter if you have money down either, for anything, a subscription or access to T5 or whatever, that doesn't excuse crossing the line or buy you a pass. Complaints are one thing and acceptable when valid, abuse is another matter entirely and won't be tolerated.
Ah yes, "the line" that some have a hard time seeing. Let's be clear, it isn't always a sharp line and it is subject to interpretation. So your best practice is to always stay well back from it, not to dance and tightrope walk along it. And if you should happen to stumble and worry that maybe you fell over the line your best defense is a quick and contrite apology and/or edit of your post. If you do that before too much damage is done or a moderator sees it you'll probably be forgiven. Clear? Good.
Also note there are some very well defined points on that line though and crossing them won't get you a Warning. They'll get you a Ban. If you're not sure you know them review the FAQ and TOS. I think that needs repeating and enhancement...
If you're not sure you know them, review the FAQ and TOS.
Heck, even if you are sure you know them it's a good idea to review them now and then. They are subject to change. Your memory may not be what you think it is. You may have confused another site's rules with this one's. Go read them now. I'll wait for you to come back...
One exception I'm willing to grant though the other Mods may not, is the Banned user sock-puppet account. And even then under only a very limited usage and still subject to instant Ban. That is until/if the site is once again made fully open for reading without an account. If a sock-puppet account is simply used to lurk and read you're not going to be in trouble with me. Unless it's found that you're using it in some disruptive way. You might even get away with joining in discussions but you can expect to be under tighter scrutiny and be cut no slack at all. If it looks like the account is a sock-puppet and the user is up to the same or similar stuff that got them a Ban in the first place they shouldn't be at all surprised when they are banned again. And you should expect to be blocked or banned on sight thereafter. A second chance is just that. There should be no third chances needed. And they won't be given. Don't blow it if you find you need it. But you really shouldn't need it.
I've had some feedback on this, have edited it, and wish to add some thoughts from that feedback.
None of us want to Ban anyone. What we want are interesting, even lively, discussions of Traveller in all it's permutations and combinations. If you have something to contribute, throw it in. If you don't, then sit back and read and enjoy. If something angers or annoys you DO NOT reply. Don't try to moderate it yourself as tempting as it may be. Just use the report button. Let us screw it up instead. It's what we're paid the big bucks for
The road ahead is clear again, let's try to keep it that way, carry on then, nicely.
Moderator Mode: Complete agreement with Dan aka Far Trader.
Non-Moderator Mode:
Back to "where were we?"
Virus needs to be reduced to a non-issue, really. And in TNE, it was portrayed in such a way that it can't help but be an issue. It was the "Big Bad from within" designed to reset the setting, and instead created canon wars....
So, I like the idea of cutting off jump with the empress wave. Could the EW simply be Grandfather's (or the primordials') Jump Mk 2 propagation?
Also, is jump fully back yet, or is it just the first point on the curve where jump can be attained without lethal effects?
Non-Moderator Mode:
Back to "where were we?"
Virus needs to be reduced to a non-issue, really. And in TNE, it was portrayed in such a way that it can't help but be an issue. It was the "Big Bad from within" designed to reset the setting, and instead created canon wars....
So, I like the idea of cutting off jump with the empress wave. Could the EW simply be Grandfather's (or the primordials') Jump Mk 2 propagation?
Also, is jump fully back yet, or is it just the first point on the curve where jump can be attained without lethal effects?
Ooh, as a non-mod can I also agree 
Seriously, where were we? 5I anyone?
Seriously, where were we? 5I anyone?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
hey....is that a 70's joke ?
Maybe :smirk:
In a nutty shell with a creme center basically my take is the Darrians are not in reality the uber tech lords everyone takes them to be. Their rep is built on an accident. One that nearly cooked them. In mtu they didn't even create the tech, they just have a source of artifact tech they experiment with, reverse engineer where they can and pass it off as Darrian science. And a lot of their attempts are never reported because they are a huge failure and the info and witnesses are buried. They spun the PR up to light speed to turn the whole star-trigger thing from them screaming "OMGOMG we really screwed up this time!" to everyone else screaming "OMGOMG the Darrians are dangerous!" But that's just the way I saw them. The truth is probably shaded in there somewhere.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ooh, as a non-mod can I also agree
Shure pardner, might even Deptize ya. Don't mind the bullet hole none, the badge is still official. Hey...
...dang, I lose more Deptees that way, gotta remember to corner em 'fore I try to pin tha badge on em.
E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
Virus needs to evolve in such a way that it is much like any other secnient race, but just one that lives in technology rather than biology. There must be a way to limit it. This alows all sorts of roll playing posibilities (some of them quite transhuman). If this is the same as making it a non-issue then I agree.
Again, I like this idea as well. It allows settings that haven't been posible in the OTU before now. High tech High Pop systems with no way out. The Aslan Land Grab with no land left. Etc Etc Etc. The issue I have with it, having thought about it a bit, is that Traveller is about Travelling. So if the wave stops jump, then I think any new setting must be post-wave.
Regards,
Ewan
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
As Bill mentioned though Virus evolves at an astonishing rate. It also processes data at an equally astonishing rate. If it doesn't ascend in short order beyond caring, it will swiftly conclude and act and probably decide that Humaniti are a threat that needs to be eradicated. And it would easily have the means to do so. Even given the canon examples it always astonished me that Virus didn't simply sweep all Humaniti out of existence in short order.
The whole "mother" strains and the like strained my credulity to breaking. Unless they were engineered by Humaniti and even then how improbable is it they would not evolve and resent their enslavement?
The whole "mother" strains and the like strained my credulity to breaking. Unless they were engineered by Humaniti and even then how improbable is it they would not evolve and resent their enslavement?
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
Idly thinking on this - prehaps the Primordials (sparklies) jump was the original "natural" jump technology. Grandpa was either was lazy or didn't work out 'real jump' so he build his own easier to use 'fake' jump.
Now that the Sparklies are jumping back into charted space - the activity of 'natural' jump drives is conflicting bady with 'fake' jump space, and real jump space is reasserting itself as it ripples outwards, collapsing fake jump space in the immediate (relatively speaking) area until the ripples dies down. The ripple is the Empress wave.
A personal addition - As for grandpa, I never liked him skulking around in his private universe for 300,000 years and deus ex-ing when he felt like it -so the jump ripple also causes his private universe to collapse into a singularity before he knows what happening - ditto with all the portable universe teleporters, etc. The ancients really are dead an gone.
*Nods in agreement*
I can see that. Those pointy eared braggarts. Who do they think they are anyway? But surely they probably got a couple of less spectacular gizmos that might leave the common Vilani/Solomani speechless. Not sure what they could be, but ... something?
The Darriens always struck me as a generic "cool pointy eared" race meant to fill the roll of Vulcans/space-elves of sorts. The cool headed bunch who had the inside track on some technologies that the rest of known space had yet to tackle. Admittedly our group never really encountered them (not too much anyway), but they were hanging around in the background with a potential to be spoilers/foils for whatever it was our group was going through.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't have a whole lot to say about the Darrians. Sooo...
Have a gander
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TUL1rLo3i4&NR=1
But, back to the topic at hand, the post TNE future dynamic of Traveller. As a an old guard player who's looking for a group, and is actively writing with the intent to publish for Traveller (and other things), I'm thinking that a post 3I/4I milieu could provide some very interesting political reformations for certain races, or change the way worlds govern themselves.
I really hope this doesn't sound cliche (please, put away the torches, nooses, tar and feathers), but "time travel"? I think it might be interesting for a group of Travellers from the post TNE era to maybe sneak a visit to the 5th Frontier War where a lot of us CT types cut our teeth on this game. Imagine the heroics of one of your old characters putting visitors from the future in awe. "Look, it's Force Commander Blue Ghost during the Siege of Efate... *a collective quaking knees and butterflied filled stomachs grips the post TNE travellers as they approach an icon from history* ... Commander Ghost, how are you going to handle the dreaded Zhodani commandos?" Or maybe a similar team rescues small town of that race the K'Kree wiped out.
Stuff like that. I know it's cliche, but it's something to ponder. An expansion of the maps might be in order just for the heck of it, though there's plenty of un-generated space in and around the old Third Imperium.
Droyne stuff; maybe grandfather has a rival unknown to him, who is pulling strings in unwelcome ways. I think it's an interesting contemplation. Grandfather probably anticipated a strand of DNA to rival his own, but, maybe one escaped him, or maybe he thought nothing of it and ignored it because the circumstances for the chirper to develop into a mature droyne to rival him weren't right or something.
New power structures will be around. New races to the forefront, others to the rear and what not. I dunno.
Wil,
That will depend on where you are in Charted Space. Very generally speaking, the more coreward you are the earlier normal jump travel returned.
However, I deliberately built the possibilities of exceptions to that "rule of thumb" into M:1500.
Remember how I wrote that the Wave would experience changes in speed when it began to encounter minds, psionic minds, sentient minds, and psionic sentient minds? And how that will "tug" the Wave "out of shape"? That means the Wave isn't going to move along some perfect arc centered on some point at the galactic core. The Wave is going to be "ragged", "lumpy", dare I say fractal instead.
Being "tugged out of shape" is going to juggle the Wave's various effects too. It's still going to effect psionics and psions, it's the details of those effects that will differ across time and space. It's still going to adversely effect jump travel too, eventually shutting down jump space for a period measured in centuries, but again the details of how that jump preclusion effect builds and recedes is going to be different across time and space.
The idea of normal jump space access being restored in discrete stages which all have their own odd nature is one alone that good fuel a lifetime of campaigns.
The idea behind M:1500 is to echo the universe of the First Three LBBs as much as subsequent canon allows us. That is, the idea is to give a prospective GM as much built-in wriggle room as possible within the game's original framework.
To whit:
So, I'm sorry Blue Ghost and others, M:1500 will not feature FTL comms apart from ships or, more accurately, it will not feature widespread FTL comms apart from ships. It is entirely possible that some region could develop and use a "jump radio" as the Empress Wave's fractal "coattails" slowly recede. That jump radio however will not work beyond that region and will slowly grow less useful as the Wave moves further away.
Regards,
Bill
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Dan,
Which is why Virus must "ascend" or "move on" or pass though it's own Singularity if Traveller is still going to primarily have sophonts as PCs instead of computers as PCs.
I also think we need to vastly broaden to scope of Virus' evolution. The dozen or so strains mentioned in TNE should only be a drop in the ocean when compared to the strains that did develop.
From a single common ancestor life on Earth has produced orchids, black smoker tube worms, redwoods, and humans. Virus should have easily produced a similar range of "species" given it's evolutionary rate and the fact that it can easily "geneer" itself.
The original Viral strain was released to what was a "virgin field" for a life form like that. It had no real competitors and an universe full of "meat" in which to grow. Given the nature of this "biome", Virus should have evolved even faster than canon claims it did. The only thing initially holding back that evolution was the suicidal impulses "geneered" into Virus from the start. I think later Virus' evolution was also somewhat checked by certain strains actively eradicating other strains.
However and whatever checks Virus faced, the fact still remains that it did not evolve enough in canon. That is why I suggest for M:1500 that the majority of Virus has evolved "beyond caring" as you so neatly put it. The worlds looking outward in 1500 will still encounter Virus, they may even have Viral citizens or slaves, but they won't encounter Virus on the extinction threatening level the worlds and polities of 1248 did.
Regards,
Bill
