Munchkins in t20

[themink]

I've been readin the rules a fair bit since I got the book (no suprises there).

Amongst other things, I've been trying to see what min/max effects will appear (ie every spellcaster/rogue in 3rd Ed D&D should take a single level in Ranger for the Feats it gives you)

The first one I can see is a little suprising. The Aca is the obvious choice for your first level. The *4 at first level is the significant thing here. If your character is ever going to take a level as aca then first level is the obvious one.

It even makes role playing sense. - Most characters would do a bit of studying when they start their career (particularly in the military where technical expertise is essential)

The skill points are most effective spent in technical fields - however, even if you cross class them, it's many more skill points than a first level marine (for instance) could dream of getting (unless their Int is huge)

 

[aravain]

You are right on target. It took our group's min/max experts less than one day to spot that quirk and create characters that just dwarfed the rest of the group's PCs. Thank goodness that we cleared up that " I can level as any class" non-sense during character generation or the Traveller Universe would forever be changed. Any other Munchkin food in T20?

 

[Tom Schoene]

I'm almost embarassed to mention this one, since my upcoming PC is probably going to use it, but starting as a Belter (at age 14) gives you another term worth of XP earnings before aging effects kick in. Works well for most ship-oriented PCs.

(In my PC's case, I think this a logical background, but I can see how some folks might find it a bit abusive.)

 

[R_Kane]

You know...this is one of the main reasons I've been in only one gaming group for a long peroid of time...all the other ones had min/max-ers in their midsts...and if there is something I dislike it is listening to poeple go on for hours - "well, if I take this feat and use this weapon, with my strength I'll attack 47 times a round, do 25d20 +12 damage and do crit x5 on a roll of 4 - 20, and I'm only 2nd level...isn't that cool?"

Well, pardon my language but F*@k No, it's not cool!, not in my book anyway

Whatever happened to playing a character with a background, who chooses skills and weapons and feats based on what the character would think is interesting, or is culturally inclinded to..and not what the player feels will give him/her the greatest game mechanic advantage

I'll deliberately forego the uber-weapons and the Ultimate Killing feat if it runs counter to my vision of my character...but sadly, I've found that to be a very minority position

It's a sad thing when the first thing you look for in a new game/ruleset is the way to break it and twist it to your advantage, in stead of looking for ways in which you can enjoy and get lost in it

Sorry for the rant, but Munchies piss me off

 

[themink]

The age 14 thing does annoy me. So I've said that all levels gained during this period have to be in either Belter or Barbarian - and they need to do a "high school equivalency" (something like UNi - but only 2 years) before I allow them to go to Uni.

 

[Tom Schoene]

R-Kane:

For the record, I agree, and I've built a lot of sub-optimal characters over the years specifically because it fits their story.

The real reason to have threads like this is to identify potential areas of abuse and give people the chance to eliminate them if they want to. I don't think it was meant to help people build "rule-beater" characters.

 

[Ellros]

Originally posted by The Mink:
The age 14 thing does annoy me. So I've said that all levels gained during this period have to be in either Belter or Barbarian - and they need to do a "high school equivalency" (something like UNi - but only 2 years) before I allow them to go to Uni.

Well, you can look at it this way... with the way survival is in a Belter term, they stand a fair chance of losing any XP earnings if they fail the survival DC, not to mention other benefits.

 

[aravain]

Hey R_Kane, I understand. You could tell who the min/max group was in our last gaming session when I confessed to the whole group that I had spent 12 skill points in a cross class to pick up entertain/dancing for my noble. While I was strongly applauded by the RP set, the m/m group just showed a look of shock on their faces. Who knows, perhaps I'll be known as 'The Dancing Count"?

 

[themink]

Mmm - Sounds like errata - nobles should have entertain as a class skill.

re:M/M - Every blue moon I enjoy a "munchkin fest" and deliberately go over the top with everything - fighting with long sword, half orcs throwing darts etc.

It's fun - but it has very little to do with our common hobby.

On the other hand, it's nice to identify thing so that the people who are playing properly don't have too much of a disadvantage in the performance of their duty.

I am getting more and more tempted to discard prior history altogether and use a shadowrun style generation - weight Feats, Skills, Stats and equipment

 

[DrSkull]

Playing Traveller and not use Prior History? Acck. That's like going to a Steak House and ordering soup.

 

[lord irial]

...which is cool if you're having steak soup.

Still, one of the reasons I'm taking a month or so before starting my T20 game is that I want to see where I want to place house rules before blast-off. This thread saves me a bit of work.

I, also, prefer ordinary-people-doing-extraordinary-things-because-they-have-to gaming. When you build a character as a born and bred hero, what fun is that? Okay, it can be, but when I want to do that, I play Champions. Even then, my characters tend to have some nasty disadvantages and broad areas where they are essentially no more useful than any average Joe.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I've actually been reccomending that starting players take a level in academic before going to university. And yeah belters get an extra term. but out of three belters in my group It's only done the one who Actually made it a serious part of his history anygood.

Of course the worst min/maxer in my party can ... arg...I repeatedly have to tell him that the goal is to play your character not 'beat the gm'. And yet he's always got some convuluted reason why he should 'gaurd the ship' when the party goes out or 'not broadcast signal gk' when they are under pirate attack in a system with it's own navy and a high lawlevel. WTH?

 

[Luddite]

All games can be abused. However it is nice to know where those abuses can be found. T20 has less potential abuse from multi-classing then DnD 3e. It is still there.

There is also a difference between being a min-maxer and just being effienct. Take the Dancing Count. You could of picked up Hobby (E/Dancing) as one of your feats and not had to pay the cross-class skill cost. And that would most likely still fit in your background.

My problem is not worrying too much about the min-maxer as making sure that every character can do something. Taking Academic at 1st level gives you a lot of skill points, but you don't get to spend them everywhere. In the end you will end up with a lot of Knowledge and Tech skills.

Making a Combat Monster is not that hard. But considering that any Critical shot can down a character, Combat is not going to be the focus of the game. In Traveller, I doubt I would see more then one or two firefights a session. And even those would be a few round skirmish.

Anyway, munchkin is a relative term. It only comes into play when two players have differnet play styles and expectations.

-The Luddite

 

[BluWolf]

I will agree with Luddite to a large extent on this issue.

In my experience a munch-kin is some one that has a divergent attitude towards the game. Some one who is trying to "win" in the most obvious sense of that word.

I have been spoiled for the past five years because I had a steady group of players that were interested in playing the game collaboratively.

Sometimes this meant a bunch of combat morons other times it was a more nuanced campaign. It all really depends.

I'm not really that concerned with someone that tries to be extremely efficient at designing characters as long as they have a concept in mind. Hell, it means they understand the rules and have an interest in the game. I can work with that any day.

It really comes down to the group. What do you all enjoy and how do you keep the game going? If that is hauling cargo from port to port in pursuit of a few more points of margin, cool. If it is jumping the space ways in search of more and more gun fights, thats cool too.

Enjoy, that is all this little hobby is about.

PS. I dare ANYONE to proclaim they have never had a "munchi" phase in thier gaming career.

 

[R_Kane]

R-Kane:

For the record, I agree, and I've built a lot of sub-optimal characters over the years specifically because it fits their story.

The real reason to have threads like this is to identify potential areas of abuse and give people the chance to eliminate them if they want to. I don't think it was meant to help people build "rule-beater" characters.

<nods> I realized that, I was just ranting a bit...I'm not in a R/L group right now, so I have no one else to rant at <grins>

I really enjoy gaming but I've hit an age where I just have no patience for playing with a group who is more interested in the game mechanics of their characters than the characters themselves (if you get what I'm trying to say)...

Sure it's good to understand the rules and know how to use them to build a successful character, but when you spend 16 hours contemplating every feat/skill/class/weapon so that you can create a character concept that twists and turns to incorporate the "perfect" combination of items resulting in an uber-gawd...that just kills it for me.

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Aravain:
Hey R_Kane, I understand. You could tell who the min/max group was in our last gaming session when I confessed to the whole group that I had spent 12 skill points in a cross class to pick up entertain/dancing for my noble. While I was strongly applauded by the RP set, the m/m group just showed a look of shock on their faces. Who knows, perhaps I'll be known as 'The Dancing Count"?

I went for the "Hunting Knight", but I didn't have to cross class since it's a P/ skill.

Ok, so I just read "Marching Upcountry/to the Sea"

It was also a useful skill given his academic cross class. He's got a Ph.D in history, focusing on the formation of the Rule of Man. He'll be constantely poking into dig sites in wilderness areas of the Rim.

 

[manley_t]

I don't see how you can take a level in prior history that is not in the class you rolled prior history on; and I won't let my players do it. It makes no logical sense at all.

In fact, I don't think the rules should allow it -- at all. You want a hobby? take a skill.

As for min/maxing...I've been gaming since the 70s, played D&D when the first blue book came out and have played more games than I can recall, loved some, hated others -- have forgotten the rules to more games than I own (which is a LOT). And, my point? There will be min/max munchin players and there will be hard core role-players and there will be roll-players and there will be players that think role-playing is a waste of time and treat their character like a unit in a war game. The way they're handled and the way the games go is up to the GM if at least most of the players are cooperative.

I've found that when you role-play character generation; when the GM sits down and describes and talks the player through (qutie easy to do in traveller) the tendancy to min/max is much less. If the player in question is inclinded the GM spots it during creation and can make judgement calls then "you would have never learned that" or "based on what you just told me why would xxx even bother to do yyy".

Also, I'm not a player friendly gm in the sense that I have no qualms about killing characters. The NPC/Monsters have as much chance to win the encounter as the players do -- tactics is usually what wins the day. And, God help hte players if ther opponents have any type of tactical experience and they just fart off and don't pay attention. I've run games where the entire party has been decimated simply becuase the 'monsters' had a good tactical ability and the players ignored the 'hints'.

just a few cents worth of thought-matter....

 

[vutpakdi]

A big potential bit of munchkinism that I see is the Virushi race, *IF* the player and referee don't play/enforce the pacifistic nature of the Virushi. The built in strength bonus (+10), dex bonus (+2), lifeblood base, stamina base, and AC bonus are all things that can lead themselves to abuse by munchkins.

I can see a munchkin player saying, "Well, my Virushi is one of the psycho Virushi's exiled by his people because he is violent" or "Well, my Virushi was raised by Vargr, so he's a violent sort."

Ron

PS: Of course, I'm playing a Virushi in our PBEM campaign, so we'll see if The Mink slaps me down when I turn my character into the Rambo Virushi.

 

[BluWolf]

See, something like isn't a munchkin issue to me so much as a bone headed design issue. Why the hell in god green earth would someone design an obvious HTH combat monster like that and then say they spend their days petting daisys and apologixing too bean sprouts??? Boggles the mind.

I can't stand things in a game that are given crunchy game mechanic definitions and then are 'balanced" or nerfed by some roleplaying counter.

It no worky. Bad design.

IMHO, if you give something a "crunchy" benefit it should come with a "crunchy" offset. Same is true for the "fluff" side of things.

 

[William]

Originally posted by BluWolf:
It no worky. Bad design.

IMHO, if you give something a "crunchy" benefit it should come with a "crunchy" offset. Same is true for the "fluff" side of things.

Perhaps, but this is the nature of the species since it's introduction in 1981 in JTAS#12. Big, strong, extreamly dextrous (wonderful surgeons), devout pacifists, and total contrarians - that is the Virushi. Definately a bit of a challenge to role play correctly (more so than the Aslan or Vargr rubber suits; less so than the K'kree or Hivers) so much more fun IMTU.

Maybe they shouldn't have put them in as a PC race, but I like having them far better than the Ursa. Now, that race is a munchkin's wet dream...

As always, YMWV.

William