Munchkins in t20

[aravain]

Thanks, Luddite for the hobby (entertain/dancing) boost you posted. I had the same idea in my original write up, but got nixed at character presentation.The thought was that since I was "performing" during court or noble social affairs, the skill was needed at a "professional" level due to the consequences of a stumble or bad "performance", not a mere hobby. Perhaps an independent posting will sway the panel of judges and since we only have one game session under the belt with this group, a little adjustment of skill points is in order. Now, where is the best area to spend 6 skill points..........?

 

[R_Kane]

Thanks, Luddite for the hobby (entertain/dancing) boost you posted. I had the same idea in my original write up, but got nixed at character presentation.The thought was that since I was "performing" during court or noble social affairs, the skill was needed at a "professional" level due to the consequences of a stumble or bad "performance", not a mere hobby.

Again with the getting hung up on the name of a thing. Why can't people look at the intent of a feat (or skill or class or whatever) instead of getting stuck on the name?

Let's see, the Hobby feat says "the individual has developed a specific skill as a favorite hobby", and it's game effect is to make a cros-class skill a class skill no matter the class.

I see the important definition as "developed a specific skill". You could call it Dancing Prodigy, and it makes Dancing a permanent class skill.

No real difference, just call it something else.
And as much as I hate the expression - Think Outside of the Box ! If you can creativey use what is there, you don't need to create new rules/skills/feats out of whole cloth and it gives you so much more flexibility.

 

[ImperialOne]

First off, let me preface by saying that I love the T20 game. I bought it myself as my preorder from July has yet to arrive despite my email queries (hello?). It may have done better as a D20 game based off the D20 Modern system rather than D&D.

The munchkinism is a game design issue inherent in D20 games with a class/level system. You don't see as many munchkins in White Wolf's World of Darkness Games, you see some in GURPS but nothing compared to D20 games. Besides, GURPS has pretty good controls.

In this sense of game balance and munchkinism, as well as other aspects, GURPS Traveller still prevails.

Charles

 

[Luddite]

Originally posted by Aravain:
Thanks, Luddite for the hobby (entertain/dancing) boost you posted. I had the same idea in my original write up, but got nixed at character presentation.The thought was that since I was "performing" during court or noble social affairs, the skill was needed at a "professional" level due to the consequences of a stumble or bad "performance", not a mere hobby. Perhaps an independent posting will sway the panel of judges and since we only have one game session under the belt with this group, a little adjustment of skill points is in order. Now, where is the best area to spend 6 skill points..........?

I can at least give you a Historical argument. Queen Elizebeth I of England was reported to be an excellent dancer. Danced every morning. But she was not a professional dancer. By profession she was Ruler of England.

A hobby is strictly any activity you do for fun. Many hobbists or amatures can be as good (or sometimes better) then "Professionals."

-The Luddite

 

[Luddite]

Originally posted by ImperialOne:

The munchkinism is a game design issue inherent in D20 games with a class/level system. You don't see as many munchkins in White Wolf's World of Darkness Games, you see some in GURPS but nothing compared to D20 games. Besides, GURPS has pretty good controls.

In this sense of game balance and munchkinism, as well as other aspects, GURPS Traveller still prevails.

Charles

Okay, I would like to point out, you see a lot more "munchkins" playing DnD/d20 since a lot more people play it then any other system.

BTW I hate the term. Take some time to read Monte Cook's article on the term Munchkin. He sums up my views pretty much.

-The Luddite

 

[chron187]

Whats worse is when they take the academic class (as mentioned in previous posts) then use the +1 to a university to goto OTC at least I think havent looked into that yet

 

[BluWolf]

Originally posted by ImperialOne:
First off, let me preface by saying that I love the T20 game. I bought it myself as my preorder from July has yet to arrive despite my email queries (hello?). It may have done better as a D20 game based off the D20 Modern system rather than D&D.

The munchkinism is a game design issue inherent in D20 games with a class/level system. You don't see as many munchkins in White Wolf's World of Darkness Games, you see some in GURPS but nothing compared to D20 games. Besides, GURPS has pretty good controls.

In this sense of game balance and munchkinism, as well as other aspects, GURPS Traveller still prevails.

Charles

I disagree. You can find munchies in a any system. Any code of rules can be exploited. (I will point out the Sabbat, Diablerie and all those 14 year old 4th generation vamptards running around, in regards to the storyteller reference).

Luddite, as usual, makes the most obvious point. More people play D&D then probably ALL other RPGs combined. It is also the largest entre' to the hobby.

 

[Gaming Glen]

Originally posted by Chron:
Whats worse is when they take the academic class (as mentioned in previous posts) then use the +1 to a university to goto OTC at least I think havent looked into that yet

I just created my first T20 character, academic class. Went to the university, got BS, MS, PhD, in everything space-ship-mechanics-wise; one of my feats is Jury Rig (no, my character's name is not Scotty). Went back to see if I could make the OTC, failed the roll. And I kept it that way, even if I was creating the character all by myself. I thought about enlisting in the navy, but said heck with that, keep him a civie.

Guess I'm not a munchkin. Or a powergamer. I do not have a single Weapon Proficiency feat. We were joking around the other day and I said that if someone handed my character a weapon he'd have it apart in seconds trying to make it work better. "Fire it? But the design is all wrong, the glucenspiel should be below the frag-tuner and this, er, what's it called?.. ah, trigger should be forward 0.01 mm."

I need to work on my technobabble, I'm not good at it. Any tables available that create technobabble?

Glen

 

[aravain]

"mea culpa", folks. Turns out that entertain/dance IS a noble class skill. *sigh* that was a newbie mistake on my part and I should have known better.

The point still was raised that what represents to you a flaw serious enough in the t20 system that warrents a quick clarification to preserve game balance? So far, besides the academic skill multiplyer, all I have really needed was to clarify leveling while in a service class and multiclassing; a problem not in the game design, but the result of a lack of clarity in the writing.Other than that and the obvious typos or errata, the game appears at this stage of our group's playing to be fairly well rounded. Sure, the potential for abuse is there, but that appears to be within the pervue of the referee.Besides, any gaming system that allows any NPC to take out any level character with one shot regardless of armor is tough enough for me

 

[themink]

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:


PS: Of course, I'm playing a Virushi in our PBEM campaign, so we'll see if The Mink slaps me down when I turn my character into the Rambo Virushi.

I went out and bought a special "slapping" glove just in case.

 

[silber]

Originally posted by Luddite:
I can at least give you a Historical argument. Queen Elizebeth I of England was reported to be an excellent dancer. Danced every morning. But she was not a professional dancer. By profession she was Ruler of England.
QUOTE]
She was also an excellent virginalist. (The virginal being an English keyboard instrument.)

 

[silber]

Originally posted by Big Tim:
I don't see how you can take a level in prior history that is not in the class you rolled prior history on; and I won't let my players do it. It makes no logical sense at all.

In fact, I don't think the rules should allow it -- at all. You want a hobby? take a skill.

I think that the GM needs to keep it from getting out of hand, but it does make a lot of sense. Prior history is what service or career path you took. Classes are what you did in that service. If you took a term as an academic, you could have
1. Been a real grind, and take you level(s) in Academic.
2. Been to engineering or arts school, and take them in Professional.
3. Been a bounce-ball player, and take them in ???
4. Been a drug dealer, and take them in Rogue.
5. In my game, at least, if you took OTC you can take one level in the appropriate service class.

If you take a term in the military, say the marines, then you could have been:
1. A marine rifleman -- take your levels in Marine.
2. A medic -- take your levels in Professional
3. In Special Operations -- take your levels in Rogue.
4. Aid to a General Officer -- take your levels (or one of them) in Noble (if you qualify for the class.)
In my game, at least, I require characters who take a service prior history (including Merchant Marine and Scout) to take at least one level in the associated class during their first term. (Basic training).

If you look at what the prior histories give you, vs. what the classes give you, the classes are much more important. With the exception of actually getting a starship, most differences between the prior histories can be overcome during game play.

 

[silber]

Many of the post-D&D d20 systems only allow one starting feat when you multiclass into a new core class. (I'm actually tempted to do this if I ever start a new D&D game.) I don't have my T20 book here at work, but the example in Star Wars is that if you start as a Scoundrel, and then multiclass as a Soldier, you only can pick up one of the Soldier's starting feats (Armor usage, and a bunch of different weapon usage feats.) This cuts down on the especially munchkin "take one level of rogue/scoundrel" at first level syndrome.

 

[GypsyComet]

True (in reference to Aardvark's post above), but much less important in T20 in general. Sure, you're getting a class feature (aka Bonus Feat) out of a one-level visit, but the classes that pile on the weapons and armor proficiencies are either Service Classes or somewhat story dependent ("no you can't take a level of Merc, since you aren't in a Merc company").

Under T20, the real sign of the Munchkin is the player who wants to use normal D&D hit points instead of Lifeblood...

 

[etherflyer]

Originally posted by William:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BluWolf:
It no worky. Bad design.

IMHO, if you give something a "crunchy" benefit it should come with a "crunchy" offset. Same is true for the "fluff" side of things.

Perhaps, but this is the nature of the species since it's introduction in 1981 in JTAS#12. Big, strong, extreamly dextrous (wonderful surgeons), devout pacifists, and total contrarians - that is the Virushi. Definately a bit of a challenge to role play correctly (more so than the Aslan or Vargr rubber suits; less so than the K'kree or Hivers) so much more fun IMTU.

Maybe they shouldn't have put them in as a PC race, but I like having them far better than the Ursa. Now, that race is a munchkin's wet dream...

As always, YMWV.

William</font>[/QUOTE]With GURPS, you can have hard-coded psychological counters. Sort of anti-feats, I suppose (I bought T20 for background, not the system). Possibly a rules extension?

OTOH, the CT Virushi _were_ susceptible to munchkinning, and we survived. (Most of us, anyway.)