My Military Vehicles Comments

[RockyMountainNavy]

I bought the new Mongoose Traveller Supplement 6: Military Vehicles. Included is a vehicle design system (VDS). Military Vehicles claims to be an upgrade to Supplement 5: Civilian Vehicles but that is not true. The VDS is the same in both books, right down to the examples. Oh, the images change but that isn’t enough not to feel cheated. I picked up both these books using a 20% off coupon at my FLGS – should have saved it! Of the two vehicle books, the layout in Military Vehicles has more mistakes (fonts go crazy!). Looks like Mongoose Publishing was in a hurry to put it out and didn’t take due diligence.

The VDS itself is a straight-forward “modular” approach. I wish Mongoose had been a bit more straight-forward in the instructions – the conversational approach used is not as effective in communicating a step-by-step process. Bullets would have been fine. Here is where those repeated examples are useful; they are what really explain how the system works.

Several items are missing, such as the cost of additional ammunition or the mass of decoys. Another item that I find annoying is the weapons themselves. The VDS has a selection of weapons to choose from to use for building your vehicle, but if you want to fight your vehicle you can't because none of the range modifiers needed for combat are in this book. So I guess I have to buy the Central Supply Catalog to get that?

There are also numerous comments on various forums about how the VDS does not produce “historical” results. For myself, I am not as concerned about “historical” accuracy as I am about “relative” accuracy – i.e. does the VDS create vehicles that “relatively” seem accurate in how they interact with each other. I am still looking for that answer.

What Military Vehicles does give you is examples. Good for a GM assist, but beware. Some of the vehicle builds just don't make sense to me. I admit this is partially because of my own bias - I am more a hard sci-fi type. That said, some of the designs seem, well, just wrong. For example:

• All Terrain Assault Vehicle – with an off-road speed of 18 kph
• Anti-PERSONNEL Tank (??)
• Mobile Command Center (MCC) with 2x Computer/1 that occupy no space yet weigh 10 kg and cost 200 Cr. There is no Computer/1 in the Optional Components or Miscellaneous Equipment and Upgrades sections of the VDS. Even if you use the Core Rulebook, a TL-8 Computer/1 should cost 250 Cr each for a total of 500 Cr (after all, we know the military never gets a discount on items!)
• Scout Buggy – described as “fast” but again only a top off-road speed of 26 kph
• Spy Plane – the illustration looks awfully like the plane from the movie Firefox (but uncredited)
• Coastal Submarine – with 8 hours of fuel
• TL-9 Corvette – with 18 hours of fuel

You surely get the idea! With the VDS you can make almost any vehicle you want, but some of the (legal) results can appear silly.

After constructing my first vehicles (a Tech Level 9 battle tank in two variants; hover and grav) I tried to compare it to those found in the Mongoose Traveller alternate universe Hammer’s Slammers book. This exercise illustrated for me just how different the vehicles are. I was not expecting many differences since vehicles in Hammer’s Slammers were supposedly based on the VDS – the product description even claims “all vehicles created using the Traveller Vehicle Creation System.”

The first difference I noticed is the vehicle hit location tables. In the Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook, used by Military Vehicles, the vehicle hit location table is a 2d6 system that scores damage irregardless of facing. In Hammer’s Slammers, the hit location table is a d6 roll based on facing. With a little bit of extrapolation (and exploration of the book) you can back-engineer the hit system the developer used, but would it not have made sense to have the newer, more detailed hit location system as part of the (alleged) upgrade? Hammer's Slammers has several other upgrades, such Expanded Damage Rules that replace the normal Core Rulebook rules. Why are these not in Military Vehicles?

In Hammer's Slammers, vehicles have a computer rating and can load various software programs, much like spacecraft or robots/drones in the Core Rulebook. But in Civilian and Military Vehicles, all you have are sensors which are described in general terms only (except the MCC which does have a Computer/1 that is not part of the VDS...). Again, why is this upgrade not in Military Vehicles?

So do I recommend buying Military Vehicles? If you absolutely have to see the example vehicles then yes. If you are comfortable making your own vehicles then I would recommend buying either Civilian or Military Vehicles (one, not both) for the VDS. Which one you choose should be determined by your adventuring group style. Make sure you buy the pdf version...don't overspend for this one! If you are into vehicle combat then make sure you get Hammer's Slammers too as that is the real vehicle combat upgrade.

 

[robject]

Vehicle design systems in general appear to be difficult to create. There are usually several orthogonal criteria (mass, volume, acceleration, top speed, cost, power, armor, tech level, payload, etc) that have to be balanced by (1) the game setting, and (2) what real life is sort-of like. That's very difficult to manage; the complexity starts to feed off of itself, it seems.

So, as long as Mongoose's VDS can get close to a core set of iconic real-world and Third Imperium-setting vehicles, then I think they've done as good as can be expected. There can be otherwise valid designs which don't make sense; those should be altered or thrown out. There can be boundary cases where joining edges of the system were not tested in just a certain way; complexity without extensive (and I mean extensive) playtesting indicates that this will happen, and even playtest can miss the unobvious.

Anyway... did you post this review to the Mongoose boards as well? I've seen some discussion there about the VDS and both vehicles books.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Well, FFS for TNE while a great system could not reproduce a M1/Leo II. The vehicle came in massively overweight (I.e the Prariefire tank). Performance figures where ok OTOH as was armor so I could live with the weight.

And depending on the TL an "Anti-Personel tank", better called an "Infantry tank" isn't all that uncommon. The Matilda II and the Churchill of WWII fame come in.

 

[atpollard]

Some of the vehicle builds just don't make sense to me. I admit this is partially because of my own bias - I am more a hard sci-fi type. That said, some of the designs seem, well, just wrong. For example:

• Coastal Submarine – with 8 hours of fuel
• TL-9 Corvette – with 18 hours of fuel

With the Traveller technology of purifiers, fuel cells and fusion power, water craft are literally floating in fuel. How long of an internal duration do they really need?

Think of it like how large of a water tank do you install on a real world ship with a desalination plant.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The first difference I noticed is the vehicle hit location tables. In the Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook, used by Military Vehicles, the vehicle hit location table is a 2d6 system that scores damage irregardless of facing. In Hammer’s Slammers, the hit location table is a d6 roll based on facing. With a little bit of extrapolation (and exploration of the book) you can back-engineer the hit system the developer used, but would it not have made sense to have the newer, more detailed hit location system as part of the (alleged) upgrade? Hammer's Slammers has several other upgrades, such Expanded Damage Rules that replace the normal Core Rulebook rules. Why are these not in Military Vehicles?

Hope I can explain this right. Military Vehicles is a generic book that is supposed to be usable across all the Traveller setting books. Spinward Marches the 3rd Imperium, Judge Dredd, Hammers Slammers and whatever else. The vehicle system variations in Hammers Slammers were meant as an enhancement for that 'setting' and not as a 'universal' upgrade to the core rules.

 

[RockyMountainNavy]

What Upgrade?

Hope I can explain this right. Military Vehicles is a generic book that is supposed to be usable across all the Traveller setting books. Spinward Marches the 3rd Imperium, Judge Dredd, Hammers Slammers and whatever else. The vehicle system variations in Hammers Slammers were meant as an enhancement for that 'setting' and not as a 'universal' upgrade to the core rules.

I see what you are saying but I really feel Mongoose missed their chance with Military Vehicles, especially since they advertised it as "Upgrading the vehicle creation system from Civilian Vehicles."

So what was the upgrade? The Vehicle Creation/Design System is the same - so no upgrade there. Could they have upgraded something else and made this product worth the price?

In contrast, look at Chapter 9 in Hammer's Slammers. It introduces Vehicle Scale, Crew Roles, additional Minor Actions/Reactions/Signifigant Actions, and Hazards. It also has Special Considerations such as Air Defense and Booster AI (computers). Then there is the Expanded Damage Rules. Most (if not all) is DIRECTLY useable in ANY Mongoose Traveller-based setting.

Mongoose missed their chance and misled us consumers.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I do not think there was any maliciousness intended. What probably happened was that when that blurb was written (4-8 months prior to the book's original release date), they intended to make an upgraded version for military vehicles. But as development occured, they realized that if they released MV's system dependent upon CV's system, people would complain much louder. Those that want to play military campains would have to buy a book they have no intention of using just to get the base system. So instead they merged the two systems and printed them in both.

I do not know for sure. I have no information on how this evolved (first hand or otherwise). This is just my own guess.

 

[Border Reiver]

And yet the blurb remains on the website, promising an "upgrade" to the vehicle design rules. Despite this being highlighted here and on the Mongoose boards there is no word from Mongoose over what appears to be a monumental **** up.

I purchased military vehicles looking for the upgrade, I wasn't that interested in the vehicle designs (and even less now since they appear to be either ridiculously unrealistic or impossible to duplicate using the rules presented).

The rules are useful though but I don't need two copies, certainly not at fifteen quid a pop. I've stated before that this is one instance where I won't be buying the pdf for both books as I have with every other MGT deadtree book I've bought.

It is important that everyone knows that your not buying an upgrade to the VDS with Military Vehicles so that you can make your own mind whether or not to buy this book. Personally I'm pretty disappointed at being misled. Like I've said before, if I was to raise this with Trading Standards I'm sure they would agree that Mongoose Publishing's advertising for this product is misleading at best if not downright deceptive.

 

[scrabble]

Anyway... did you post this review to the Mongoose boards as well? I've seen some discussion there about the VDS and both vehicles books.

I am not quite sure why the OP is posting his review here at all. This is a third party site, run by a rival licensee, so it is not as if anyone here can do anything about the product.

I would second the suggestion to post it to Mongoose's own Traveller boards.

 

[Droptrooper.]

I am not quite sure why the OP is posting his review here at all. This is a third party site, run by a rival licensee, so it is not as if anyone here can do anything about the product.

I would second the suggestion to post it to Mongoose's own Traveller boards.

Perhaps because this is the biggest Traveller community on the internet and he'll reach more users with his warning than just posting on the Mongoose boards?

Perhaps because when even players/fans of MGT post anything critical of Mongoose on their own boards it results in instant flamewar/thread deletion. (of course that happens here as well )?

Perhaps some of the "alternate" Traveller boards are administrated by those who make petty attacks on other communities after being banned from everywhere else on teh internetz, that making any kind of opinion results in THE RED TEXT MONSTER appearing?

Maybe none of the above?

There could be a myriad of reasons but MongooseMatt usually addresses criticism of his products that appear on these boards (in his own inimitable style) and their customer service is second to none. I'm sure Matt will produce a statement in his own time regarding this issue.

 

[scrabble]

I would say that the only place that I see people making any "petty attacks" is here on this very board on CotI, usually against Mongoose or its version of Traveller. CotI has more than its own fair share of bitter people.

That said, the review posted by the OP seems reasonable and I doubt that it would offend anyone at Mongoose.

 

[Droptrooper.]

All the points raised by the original poster have been made on the Mongoose boards already with zero response from the Mongoose team. To me it looks like they are hoping the issue will just go away. :nonono:

As far as attacks on Mongoose here, I see some fairly valid criticism, I see people with thirty years of emotional investment railing at any form of change, I see people blinded by personal grievances which have nothing to do with the game, I see those that feel that the game that has decades of established backstory retconned into something more palatable to the thumb-pressing generation, I see those aggrieved that their own personal vision of Traveller has not become the one true grail. All pretty much par for the course for Traveller discussion on the internet.

What I don't see is petty attacks or organised campaigns to bring down other websites and communities nor do I see attempts to hijack T5 over to another site. That's all I have to say on the matter as we are straying away from the topic of MGT Military Vehicles. o:

 

[scrabble]

What exactly do other websites have to do with any of this? robject and I merely suggested that he should post his review on the Mongoose site. If you do not wish to "stray away from the topic of MGT Military Vehicles" then I would suggest that you stop derailing the topic to rant about other things.

And perhaps you could also stop making your own petty attacks against other websites and communities as well. If they offend you so much then simply stay away from them.

 

[mbrinkhues]

After browsing through it:

+ Mongoose should fire on it's QA team. Preferably with heavy artillerie!

The page references in the book are off by at least a page

+ The art is clean and watchabel

Nice, clean drawings. Not the grey in grey in black blend seen in HighGuard etc. They also have the "technical" look I associate with Traveller

+ The art feels "used"

This ranges from "I have seen that in the B-Movie series that Mel Brooks later made into his brilliand Spaceballs" to "Looks like a US combat coke with grav-drive" to "I remember that game from the early nineties". Oh and both Iowa and Cole are there too.

+ Lot's of example vehicles

It covers the whole range often with examples from more than one TL. And this time like in CSC they got the vehicles matching the names/type definition.

+ Lot's of Walkers

The walkers are well done. If Walkers are "Traveller" is another question. IMHO they are exotics, say 1 per 101.

 

[Kilgs]

I picked up Civilian Vehicles and then heard that there was no real change in Military Vehicles other than the vehicles included in the book, is that correct? I assumed that Military Vehicles would add some more weaponry, armor, battle options etc. Any thoughts?

IMO, the system is pretty crunchy and I've decided to just handwave most of my vehicles using those as guidelines but I could really care less about some of the detail. And if I want a certain vehicle, I'm gonna make a certain vehicle regardless of what the rules say. I'm more interested in options and upgrades.

I was kinda disappointed with Civ Vehicles, I was hoping for an easier system like that used in Maximum Metal (Cyberpunk) or (gasp!) Palladium's old Road Hogs. Poor Mongoose, all the gearheads would have screamed foul if they'd have gone the simple route and all of us non-gearheads are whining about too much detail.

(Note to self: Do not buy gaming license for established product with grognard population

 

[robject]

I picked up Civilian Vehicles and then heard that there was no real change in Military Vehicles other than the vehicles included in the book, is that correct? I assumed that Military Vehicles would add some more weaponry, armor, battle options etc. Any thoughts?

The design systems are one and the same. The vehicle examples are different.

IMO, the system is pretty crunchy and I've decided to just handwave most of my vehicles using those as guidelines but I could really care less about some of the detail.

Good show. That's exactly how any design system should be used by the referee.

I was kinda disappointed with Civ Vehicles, I was hoping for an easier system [...] Poor Mongoose, all the gearheads would have screamed foul if they'd have gone the simple route and all of us non-gearheads are whining about too much detail.

It's not bad. It is too detailed for my liking, but there are many systems that are much more complex or difficult to use.

Supporting Traveller means to reasonably support the kinds of vehicles that typically show up in Traveller. Marc is working on a simpler vehicle design system for T5 that will do this without the complexity of traditional systems.

 

[socar37]

With the Traveller technology of purifiers, fuel cells and fusion power, water craft are literally floating in fuel. How long of an internal duration do they really need?

Think of it like how large of a water tank do you install on a real world ship with a desalination plant.

I know it's a bit late, but...

Several hundred thousand gallons worth of water tanks for the average CVN.


Mike
SoCar37

 

[apoc527]

I agree with robject's viewpoint. I have both books and I will probably get everything I need out of them. I don't have enough realworld knowledge to know where things are funky anyway, and so as long as nothing is completely unbelieveable (and nothing has been so far), then I'm ok with it.

The important thing is that rules be internally consistent and that all vehicles get made using the same rules, or are at least "eyeballed" using the same set of examples. Both MGT vehicles books accomplish this AND with the added bonus of not being completely incomprehensible to non-engineers (like GURPS Vehicles and FFS).

 

[Jame]

With the Traveller technology of purifiers, fuel cells and fusion power, water craft are literally floating in fuel. How long of an internal duration do they really need?

Think of it like how large of a water tank do you install on a real world ship with a desalination plant.

A lot more than 18 hours, that's for sure.