Naval Infantry

[aramis]

Since everyone goes through basic, what advantage is there in using gunners' mates over regular crew?

Engineering crew are busy operating the ship. They're also expensive to train.
Medical crew aren't supposed to be under arms. And the few who do go as unit medics are sufficiently many to limit on-board capabilities.
Maneuver crew are few (but used to be more - topmen and deck used to be maneuver crew)
Cooks are essential in job for morale, and already work long shifts.
Signals/Electronics Crew - not enough to be useful additions, and the standard crewing for USN NI roles already pulls more than skippers are comfortable with.

Deck - Mop & Paint Crew (No offense to all you white-stripes and BMs) - short term, all but the minimums for the fire fighting and head cleaning are available.
Guns - Gunnery crews are still typically sufficient for full manning all 3 watch-crews... but few ships face more than 4 hours at a whack in gunfire when engaged in ground action and boarding action, and they are required for the NI Artillery anyway when ashore.

Also, these tend to be two of the 3 largest departments, and two of the least expensive to train departments. This all adds up to "mostly BM's, GM's, and white stripe seamen"

 

[Blue Ghost]

Practice, constant practice.

I guess I can see that in the abstract; i.e. gunner's mate shoots big guns, handles bags of powder and shells for the deck gun, but does that really give him knowledge of sidearms and rifles? I'm a howlie here as to what does what.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Engineering crew are busy operating the ship. They're also expensive to train.
Medical crew aren't supposed to be under arms. And the few who do go as unit medics are sufficiently many to limit on-board capabilities.
Maneuver crew are few (but used to be more - topmen and deck used to be maneuver crew)
Cooks are essential in job for morale, and already work long shifts.
Signals/Electronics Crew - not enough to be useful additions, and the standard crewing for USN NI roles already pulls more than skippers are comfortable with.

Deck - Mop & Paint Crew (No offense to all you white-stripes and BMs) - short term, all but the minimums for the fire fighting and head cleaning are available.
Guns - Gunnery crews are still typically sufficient for full manning all 3 watch-crews... but few ships face more than 4 hours at a whack in gunfire when engaged in ground action and boarding action, and they are required for the NI Artillery anyway when ashore.

Also, these tend to be two of the 3 largest departments, and two of the least expensive to train departments. This all adds up to "mostly BM's, GM's, and white stripe seamen"

I can see that, but in a pinch, like say ... oh, heck, an angry mob on the docks, or for this example, just outside the chain-link fence or in the terminal overlooking your jump capable fast patrol ship or low tonnage streamlined frigate, wouldn't you just start passing out the arms to anyone who was capable of handling one? The captain's yoeman may be down in the galley microwaving ramen for the bridge crew, but if he's got nothing else to do, shouldn't you toss him a pistol at least?

 

[aramis]

I can see that, but in a pinch, like say ... oh, heck, an angry mob on the docks, or for this example, just outside the chain-link fence or in the terminal overlooking your jump capable fast patrol ship or low tonnage streamlined frigate, wouldn't you just start passing out the arms to anyone who was capable of handling one? The captain's yoeman may be down in the galley microwaving ramen for the bridge crew, but if he's got nothing else to do, shouldn't you toss him a pistol at least?

You do. The standing NI force isn't for defense - it's your away team.

When you deploy NI:
1) When you positively must secure that dock
2) when you have to board that ship
3) when the marines must have mortar and medical support 5 miles inland for a couple days (until the army arrives)
4) when the admiral needs to impress senator bedfellow

Keep in mind: Deck department has the most "makework" - stuff they don't really need to do but it keeps them busy so they're there when you need them for the few things your REALLY need them to do because everyone else is busy - combat fire suppression especially, and small boat ops. They are, sadly, expendable - except when you need to bail, sail, or stop a fire.

Gunners' Mates have to be competent with a variety of canon - and the light mortar ammo has the same basic handling issues as the powder bags for the big guns. It's not as relevant as it used to be, with the autoloading QF5", or the forthcoming 10cm railgun, but since 1/3 of the NI force has to be arty, that's going to fall to GMs or Gunnery Dept Seamen... And, IIRC, GMSN are still white-stripe seamen (as are cooks, yeomen, and a handful of others...)

Now, in Traveller, it's your Deck maintenance crew you second to NI duty... again, because you can live without them, and because the tables give them the needed skills... and your gunnery crews as FOs, field gunners, and mortarmen, again, because they get the needed skills.

 

[Orr]

I guess I can see that in the abstract; i.e. gunner's mate shoots big guns, handles bags of powder and shells for the deck gun, but does that really give him knowledge of sidearms and rifles? I'm a howlie here as to what does what.

They practice handling the big guns and personal weapons because handling both is their job. Aramis already explained that to you.

 

[Blue Ghost]

They practice handling the big guns and personal weapons because handling both is their job. Aramis already explained that to you.

Well, I don't see how operating a canon makes you a better rifleman. How does driving a big-rig make you a better NASCAR or Formula-One driver?

 

[Orr]

Well, I don't see how operating a canon makes you a better rifleman.

How many times must it be explained to you that gunners mates train on both big guns and personal weapons? They aren't good with rifles because they operate 5-inch guns. They're good with rifles because they train with rifles as well as train with 5-inch guns.

Read Aramis' posts #21 and #24 again, especially #21.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Apparently at least twice.

Look, I fired guns when I was younger, but it didn't give me insight into operating a canon. I understand that those guys train on weapons because it's what they do. A friend of mine was on Abrams for his army career, and commanding a tank (or several) didn't make him a sharp shooter.

Yeah, okay, they handle firearms and big guns. It's what they do. But I see no reason for it to be inherit that a big gun will translate to small gun competency. That's just my take. Aramis did explain that they train, and that they handle the things constantly. To me training is what makes you competent, not operating like equipment.

Thanks.

 

[aramis]

BG, you missed the other key element - if you need troops, the BM's and the GM's are the guys you can spare.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Totally get that. I guess to me it seems you'd want the best shots handling the hardware, not just the guys who know the ins and outs of weapons, because they may not be very good marksmen. Odds are they're better than the cook pealing potatoes who never qualifies on a weapon, but you may discover that the guy manning the ship's store is a crackshot.

Anyway, I get what you're saying, I'm just being a thorn.

Back to the topic; I like the concept of naval infantry. This topic would make a fine JTAS article.

 

[Barsanuphius]

I had always wondered...

This is a great topic.

I am really appreciating this thread.

I had often wondered about the role of Security, i.e. Master-At-Arms, role on board a ship with a Marine contingent present, as well as the SP (Shore Patrol/Security Police). Of course I always deferred to Ships' Troops to that of Marines.

Thanks to this thread, I have a better understanding and can create a situations that would warrant non-combatant PC's to get involved in the fire fight, Boarding action, or to repel Boarders.

Thanks.

Joseph

 

[Selandia]

I agree that the passage from sail to steam was meaningfull in this debate as to what analogy we shall use for spacebound naval infantry. It is not just the issue of the technical level and specialities of ratings. It is also the fact that musketry from the fighting top and massive boarding action (with mandatory large ships' troops and wpn training) were things of the past. You still needed light wpn on weatherdeck, boarding parties for naval control of shipping and landing parties for odd jobs.

USS Plebble (the movie with Steve McQueen) is giving an idea of steam navy landing parties aboard what OTU would call an "Adventure Class Ship" .

Selandia

 

[rancke]

I would like to offer the suggestion that ships like the Gazelle, Fiery, Chrysanthemum, Fer-de-Lance, etc. are simply not intended to perform shore operations. If the admiral expects the need for such, he send a ship designed to carry marines or naval infantry. Probably not a Kinunir, because there aren't very many of them around, but a class built by the hundreds or thousands, a 1000T (Cricketer Class destroyer escort (named after famous criketers) (that I just made up)) with a crew of the 16 people needed to run it plus another dozen crew trained as naval infantry or a squad of marines. And if the intrepid captain of the Bluebell finds himself all alone in a system with his Chrysanthemum Class destroyer escort and in need of a shore party, he has a real problem.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I would like to offer the suggestion that ships like the Gazelle, Fiery, Chrysanthemum, Fer-de-Lance, etc. are simply not intended to perform shore operations. If the admiral expects the need for such, he send a ship designed to carry marines or naval infantry. Probably not a Kinunir, because there aren't very many of them around, but a class built by the hundreds or thousands, a 1000T (Cricketer Class destroyer escort (named after famous criketers) (that I just made up)) with a crew of the 16 people needed to run it plus another dozen crew trained as naval infantry or a squad of marines. And if the intrepid captain of the Bluebell finds himself all alone in a system with his Chrysanthemum Class destroyer escort and in need of a shore party, he has a real problem.


Hans

True, very very true, but it's what you do when you have a real problem and all you have is the crew of your Bluebell that says whether you might have a shot at commanding a cruiser next year.

When it hits the fan, and the right people for the job are far, far away, and you're the captain with nothing but bad choices ahead of you, the job description becomes more of a suggestion than an iron-clad rule.

 

[rancke]

True, very very true, but it's what you do when you have a real problem and all you have is the crew of your Bluebell that says whether you might have a shot at commanding a cruiser next year.

When it hits the fan, and the right people for the job are far, far away, and you're the captain with nothing but bad choices ahead of you, the job description becomes more of a suggestion than an iron-clad rule.

The suggestion I was trying to make was that ships with very few people that could be spared from the running of the ship wouldn't have those two or three people trained as naval infantry, because doctrine would be that they wouldn't be deployed for missions where naval infantry was needed. Cruisers would have naval infantry, because they'd be able to muster a useful number of them. Escorts with provisions for extra crew or marines would have them trained for shore duty. But any ship that would only be able to must a small handful wouldn't be expected to field any. I'm not sure what would be considered a minimum. A squad? A platoon? But I'd guess that anything less than a squad would be too little.


Hans

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Are Stewards still used in the Navy? I know they were during WWII. So there are some spare hands for NI.

 

[aramis]

The suggestion I was trying to make was that ships with very few people that could be spared from the running of the ship wouldn't have those two or three people trained as naval infantry, because doctrine would be that they wouldn't be deployed for missions where naval infantry was needed. Cruisers would have naval infantry, because they'd be able to muster a useful number of them. Escorts with provisions for extra crew or marines would have them trained for shore duty. But any ship that would only be able to must a small handful wouldn't be expected to field any. I'm not sure what would be considered a minimum. A squad? A platoon? But I'd guess that anything less than a squad would be too little.


Hans

USN low bound was a short (8-man) squad, implying 22 men in the combination of deck & guns departments.

 

[Carlobrand]

The suggestion I was trying to make was that ships with very few people that could be spared from the running of the ship wouldn't have those two or three people trained as naval infantry, because doctrine would be that they wouldn't be deployed for missions where naval infantry was needed. Cruisers would have naval infantry, because they'd be able to muster a useful number of them. Escorts with provisions for extra crew or marines would have them trained for shore duty. But any ship that would only be able to must a small handful wouldn't be expected to field any. I'm not sure what would be considered a minimum. A squad? A platoon? But I'd guess that anything less than a squad would be too little.

Hans

And I agree, within certain limits. The two or three bodies a DE can spare aren't going to make a whole lot of difference unless the only thing you're doing is helping the sole cop of a backwater 100-pop colony to deal with the idiot who barricaded himself into the colony's only communication shack with his shotgun. And, honestly, if I were the captain I'd be wondering why the cop can't whup up a posse from among his own folk. The idea that something as small as a DE has a designated "naval infantry" - other than the couple of guys whose job is to stand at the door of the airlock with a gun on their hip saluting people as they come on or get off - is a bit difficult to swallow.

The limit is this. If I'm captain of a cruiser, I can play by the book. Without harming ship's readiness, I can designate and train a platoon to deal with the odd bit that absolutely can't wait the two weeks for me to send a message to base and have them send out troops or hire a Broadsword. If I'm captain of Bluebird, these 16-odd souls are all I have; the only body I can spare is the mascot, and he's a cat - and then I'd have to deal with mice. I'm not going to want to use them for anything short of a Class-A+ "all-that-stands-between-you-and-utter-disaster" emergency. However, I'm going to make very sure that my crew knows the basics of loading and firing a gun, against the remote possibility that that may be all that stands between my ship and utter disaster.

Both Book-2 and High Guard list gun combat as a skill that can be acquired by certain navy personnel. I'd warrant that a lot of those folk got that training - and likely never had to use it - while on some little destroyer or escort under a commander who believed in being prepared.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This is a great topic.

I am really appreciating this thread.

I had often wondered about the role of Security, i.e. Master-At-Arms, role on board a ship with a Marine contingent present, as well as the SP (Shore Patrol/Security Police). Of course I always deferred to Ships' Troops to that of Marines.

Thanks to this thread, I have a better understanding and can create a situations that would warrant non-combatant PC's to get involved in the fire fight, Boarding action, or to repel Boarders.

Thanks.

Joseph

Yeah, for the longest time I always thought that there was at least a squad or fireteam in cold sleep on every Imperial Navy ship; i.e. cold watch.

Not always so. And, if that's the case, take roll of who knows how to pull a trigger, and pass out the hardware. Because that angry mob of K'Kree that smells last night's meat lovers' pizza on the breath of the guy you sent grocery shopping, wants to talk to you. "Talk" in this case is a pejorative. :smirk:

 

[Blue Ghost]

P.S. the IISS IMTU were sometimes used to reinforce marine/army units. Scouts were kind of the do-all serviceman; rescue cats from trees, tie kids shoe laces, deliver mail or info via X-Boat, explore ruins or worlds, engage enemy forces with the navy, sneak in special forces and extract later, chart new systems, etc. They were a "Star Trek" equivalent kind of service without Classic Trek's trappings. Note, CT can refer to Classic Traveller or Trek. Pretty cool huh? No? Well, I tried

Anyway, in that vein, the IISS might field its own version of "Scout Infantry" of sorts, though a squad of guys in jumpsuits holding tranq guns or a 12 guage shotgun, for some reason (on paper at least) doesn't seem as menacing as Navy Personnel in light armor wielding LASER carbines. Just me.