Naval Infantry

[rancke]

If I'm captain of Bluebird, these 16-odd souls are all I have; the only body I can spare is the mascot, and he's a cat - and then I'd have to deal with mice. I'm not going to want to use them for anything short of a Class-A+ "all-that-stands-between-you-and-utter-disaster" emergency. However, I'm going to make very sure that my crew knows the basics of loading and firing a gun, against the remote possibility that that may be all that stands between my ship and utter disaster.

And so would I. But not all captains are as smart as you and I.

Both Book-2 and High Guard list gun combat as a skill that can be acquired by certain navy personnel. I'd warrant that a lot of those folk got that training - and likely never had to use it - while on some little destroyer or escort under a commander who believed in being prepared.

Gun Combat is also a skill that not all navy personnel acquire. It's a branch skill for Line/Crew, Flight, and Gunnery, but it's not something you can get on Navy Life, Shore Duty Life, or (significantly) Shipboard Life. So apparently noone in Engineering, Medical, and Technical gets that sort of training -- which implies that nobody trains his entire crew in gun handling.

(Note: I'd totally accept a ship captain who exercised his entire crew in gun combat as an element in an adventure, but apparently such cases are rare enough to fall below the resolution of the advanced character generation system.)


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

All basic character generation characters have weapon skills at 0 (or 1/2 depending on how old your version of CT is) to avoid the -4 penalty for untrained use.

This implies basic training - reloading, clearing jams, cleaning routines etc.

IMTU I take this to be the basic training all military forces receive in small arms, navy included.

 

[rancke]

All basic character generation characters have weapon skills at 0 (or 1/2 depending on how old your version of CT is) to avoid the -4 penalty for untrained use.

All player characters do. Does it say anywhere that NPCs do too? Anyway, that basic. I was referring to advanced Naval Character Generation. Unless I've overlooked it, there's no mention of default weapon skills anywhere.

This implies basic training - reloading, clearing jams, cleaning routines etc.

Basic and advanced training consists of two rolls on the branch skill table, so the three aforementioned branches do not get weapons training.

IMTU I take this to be the basic training all military forces receive in small arms, navy included.

It's not an unreasonable idea, though AFAIK not embodied in ACG. But even if everybody gets basic training (giving them all, say, Rifle-0), it wouldn't be the same as the hypothetical Naval Infantry training that we're discussing. The whole point of special NI training would be to qualify part of the crew for infantry operations. I submit that the lack of Gun Combat skill in a branch table can be taken to indicate that people of those branches do not, as a general rule, receive NI training.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I'll note that in MT, all but Barbarians get gun combat 0. It's not stated as PC vs NPC, and there is an implication in CT and MT that the difference between PC's and NPC's is in motivation, not in character generation. (But I'll grant that the numbers of persons in various social levels may not be representative of the Imperium as a whole, but merely of those who have been off world.)

 

[Selandia]

Look at it from another angle.

What if you are enforcing a gunboat policy? against a TL 1-6 provincial warlord, a Broadsword class Cruiser is a mighty opponent. May be that 800 tons C class cruiser that sound ridiculous when sized against "real Cruisers" from HG become a valid "cruiser" i.e. a ship that cruise on station, in that perspective? The point here is that perspective is important. It is not what make sense in an abstract organisational sense, its about mission and resources.

If that ship need a "weapon system" whose job description look like Forward observer, ground level recon, capture of information source, post bombardment investigation of wreckage or any thing that look like what is done by a squad of boots with guns, it is going to have boots with guns with no regard for rules about big weapon manning allotment.

"I understand Admiral that you do not see the role of naval infantry? Just think of my "fusiller-marin" (literally: sailor-rifleman) as automated autonomous light combat system. Individuals are the smallest mission resource increment, name indicate the family rather than the workshop that supplied them and they are using staterooms for maintenance".

Now, do they need to be organized in a specialized "Corp"? If yes, what about providing ships with an organic resource for those boots with guns mission? That might be the real questions.

Selandia

 

[rancke]

I'll note that in MT, all but Barbarians get gun combat 0.

In CotI, bureaucrats and doctors don't get gun combat skill either. Belters, diplomats, rogues, and scientists do, oddly enough. (Note: I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with some belters, diplomats, rogues, and scientists learning gun skill (and the same goes for bureaucrats and doctors for that matter). And I can certainly imagine societies where everyone learns how to handle a gun. But that all belters, diplomats, rogues, and scientists everywhere would learn gun skill is completely implausible.)

I will add that the rule for Blade combat "proves" that all characters, regardless of career, is familiar with halberds and pikes (and dagger, blade, foil, sword, cutlass, broadsword, bayonet, spear and cudgel).

It's not stated as PC vs NPC

Right you are. I suppose I misremembered that because it's such an unrealistic rule. Giving all PCs some minimum adventuring potential is defensible as a game mechanic, but implying that every civilian member of every society in Charted Space with the technology to manufacture guns would have basic gun expertise is highly unrealistic.

...and there is an implication in CT and MT that the difference between PC's and NPC's is in motivation, not in character generation.

Yes, Traveller authors have been using the CG system to produce NPCs from the very beginning. A very bad idea IMO. I much prefer to tailor my NPCs to the social situation in which they appear.

Be that as it may, it's a side issue. As I said in my previous post, from the description of naval infantry you provided, I gathered that part of a ship's company was trained as NI and part of it wasn't. So if, in fact, everyone in the Navy has a skill of 0 in all weapons (including halberds! ), the fact that members of a particular branch have Gun-0 does not prove one way or the other that they has had NI training.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

And so would I. But not all captains are as smart as you and I.



Gun Combat is also a skill that not all navy personnel acquire. It's a branch skill for Line/Crew, Flight, and Gunnery, but it's not something you can get on Navy Life, Shore Duty Life, or (significantly) Shipboard Life. So apparently noone in Engineering, Medical, and Technical gets that sort of training -- which implies that nobody trains his entire crew in gun handling.

(Note: I'd totally accept a ship captain who exercised his entire crew in gun combat as an element in an adventure, but apparently such cases are rare enough to fall below the resolution of the advanced character generation system.)


Hans

Yuppers, too many in the Imperial Navy seem to have fallen into the delusion of thinking the universe is a safe place. Those of us up here where the Vargr might show up at any time and weird things happen know better, but I suspect a lot of the commanders around Trin figure the only thing they need to worry about is the next inspection.

 

[aramis]

Be that as it may, it's a side issue. As I said in my previous post, from the description of naval infantry you provided, I gathered that part of a ship's company was trained as NI and part of it wasn't. So if, in fact, everyone in the Navy has a skill of 0 in all weapons (including halberds! ), the fact that members of a particular branch have Gun-0 does not prove one way or the other that they has had NI training.


Hans

No CT/MT character class I can think of gets Melee Weapons-0, only Gun Combat-0. I should have been more precise.

I'll note that, IMTU, I don't give everyone the GC-0, only Army, Navy, Scouts, Flyers, Sailors, Pirates, and Law Enforcement. (I let all characters who earn a firearm skill level take the level 0, because my experience is that learn to fire one gun, and all are reasonably able to be fired at basic lack of incompetence.

 

[far-trader]

No CT/MT character class I can think of gets Melee Weapons-0, only Gun Combat-0.

I think you're mistaken or misremembering. Or I'm misinterpreting the above?

CT LBB1 pg16:

"All player-characters have an innate weapon expertise, in all weapons, of zero."

All weapons. Gun Combat weapons and Blade Combat weapons. Also includes Brawling skill the way I read it.

S4 pg10:

"Most characters have a natural weapon expertise (in all gun and blade weapons listed below) of one-half; exceptions are noted."

Clarifies Gun and Blade are at one-half (equivalent of zero level). Strangely not specific on Brawling though.

I don't recall the MT rule off hand with certainty and can't look right now but think it is the same.

 

[rancke]

S4 pg10:

"Most characters have a natural weapon expertise (in all gun and blade weapons listed below) of one-half; exceptions are noted."

And below that, in the description of Blade Combat, it says:

"All characters have a natural expertise of one-half in all blades and polearms;"

Even doctors learn to wield halberds, apparently.


Hans

 

[aramis]

And below that, in the description of Blade Combat, it says:

"All characters have a natural expertise of one-half in all blades and polearms;"

Even doctors learn to wield halberds, apparently.


Hans

Not "learn to" as in "are taught to" but "have seen enough to" be able to do so without formal training. Level 0 can be learned by watching alone.

 

[rancke]

Not "learn to" as in "are taught to" but "have seen enough to" be able to do so without formal training. Level 0 can be learned by watching alone.

1) Where does it say that level 0 in a skill can be learned by watching alone? It sounds very unlikely to me. Personally, I've never learned any skill just by watching (And if it was possible, people would have a good deal more level-0 skills than the rules hand out).

2) Every character in Charted Space has enough of an opportunity to watch halberd-swinging to gain Halberd-0?!?

You're trying to defend the indefensible here, Wil. Why?


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

Because you know there's some gaming group that's going to allow a tech level 1 barbarian as a crewman on a ship who can only swing low tech weapons.

At least, I've interacted with other players of other groups who've told me such stories, AND they didn't bat an eye thinking that that was how the rule set was to be interpreted. Ergo, some low tech types were drafted into one of the services were allowed to wear their native dress and wield their native weapons. Crazy stuff.

I mean, these were scientists too. The core of sci-fi fandom and gaming who were supposedly in the high-IQ department.

I know you guys were talking tongue-in-cheek, but it brought up a sort of semi-serious topic to me, and that's tacit misinterpretation of the rules by die hard gamers.

That being said, I suppose that kind of thing can be fun in a strange sort of way. o:

 

[Blue Ghost]

My (almost final) take on Naval Infantry is this;

They're armed crewmen, and the guys the Navy actually sends down most of the time even when marines are present. That is if you need a small security detachment, then you call up those who are doubling as ship's security, and send them off with whatever officer is headed to the planet surface.

What they wear and carry I guess is anyone's guess. For light diplomatic security stuff, I'd imagine just their usual duty uniform with maybe a sidearm or a rifle of some kind slung over their shoulder. For serious action maybe they get dressed up in a light duty combat armor outfit. Maybe something can be worn over their normal uniform, or maybe something that is air tight and armored so it can be used in a variety of atmospheres, including no-atmosphere.

I don't imagine there're too many NI that would get trained in high energy weapons, but that's just my personal outlook. I think LASER or ACRs of somekind would be more practical. Whenever I read an adventure that says there's a couple of shotguns in the ship's locker, I always get a little curious as to how or why any navy people would use a shotgun. Again, I don't know all the ins and outs of arming naval personnel, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Naval Infantry may not be a separate branch as such (no more than the Air Force's version of the same thing; the guys who guard things like SR-71s, Air Fields and so forth, but wear Air Force uniforms and not Army), but they seem to be distinguished enough that a small side-bar for them is noteworthy.

I should be cleaning.

 

[aramis]

1) Where does it say that level 0 in a skill can be learned by watching alone? It sounds very unlikely to me. Personally, I've never learned any skill just by watching (And if it was possible, people would have a good deal more level-0 skills than the rules hand out).

2) Every character in Charted Space has enough of an opportunity to watch halberd-swinging to gain Halberd-0?!?
Hans

obtaining Level 0 by observation - good for one use...
MT PH 41

That one use could very well be a knowledge roll about it, and a success at that can earn an AT.

Also, MT has dropped the Melee Weapons-0 - it's only Guns.

Note also that the wording in TTB is "Level-0 indicates an orientation to the
skill by an experienced person"... that could easily be online, or even an elementary school weapons demonstration or video show.

Nothing in CT requires that the orientation be hands on.

I'll ignore the borderline personal attack.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Be cool, dudes Or like the good Baron says, "my Lords"

I've started a lot of Traveller fiction that I have not finished. Some of it good, some of it not so good. One story is particularly bad, while another is good, but perhaps too personal. Another deals with fighters, which really isn't too big a part of the Traveller scheme of things, while another story I started I'm thinking would be well served with some naval infantry.

I may contact Dourghty from Avenger, and ask him about writing fiction; i.e. put the INI (Imperial Naval Infantry) to the test in a piece of fiction. Maybe include some other races version of the same thing. Sol/Terran Naval Infantry?

Just musing here. Off to bed.

 

[Barsanuphius]

In CotI, bureaucrats and doctors don't get gun combat skill either. Belters, diplomats, rogues, and scientists do, oddly enough. (Note: I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with some belters, diplomats, rogues, and scientists learning gun skill (and the same goes for bureaucrats and doctors for that matter). And I can certainly imagine societies where everyone learns how to handle a gun. But that all belters, diplomats, rogues, and scientists everywhere would learn gun skill is completely implausible.)

As I see it Doctors/Md's for that matter, are scientists. Perhaps one may consider that Scientists get gun combat as a skill based on the idea of Star Trek Science Officer with his fleet issued Phaser pistol. Same thing for the CMO i.e. CMD Dr. Leonard McCoy. ::devil:

I will add that the rule for Blade combat "proves" that all characters, regardless of career, is familiar with halberds and pikes (and dagger, blade, foil, sword, cutlass, broadsword, bayonet, spear and cudgel).

As Far as Blade combat, neither a Pike nor a Halberd are a blade weapon but a pole arm though they are fashioned with a blade at their heads. I'm nit-picking here, in order to be basically skilled as a Pole Arms-man, is not the same as being able to use a cutlas or sabre. These are two distinctly differently skills or talents.


Joseph

 

[rancke]

obtaining Level 0 by observation - good for one use...
MT PH 41

You got me there. After having read the rule in its entirety, I think you're using it way past what it can bear, but I have to admit that there is a rule like that. Not a CT rule, though, and while I strongly favor the notion that setting descriptions from one Traveller version is valid evidence for the setting in all Traveller versions[*], I consider mixing and matching rules far more iffy. You certainly can't use an MT rule to show how a CT rule was intended to work at the time it was published.

[*] That's not to say that there can't be other reasons to disregard evidence, such as contradictions and unrealism.​

That one use could very well be a knowledge roll about it, and a success at that can earn an AT.

The notion that all doctors know the rudiments of halberd fighting by first observing with intent to learn and then succeeding in learning is just plain unreasonable.

Also, MT has dropped the Melee Weapons-0 - it's only Guns.

Doesn't affect the fact that interpreting CT character generation 100% literally is silly.

Note also that the wording in TTB is "Level-0 indicates an orientation to the skill by an experienced person"... that could easily be online, or even an elementary school weapons demonstration or video show.

I do not consider someone weho has watched a historical video on the subject to be experienced.

Nothing in CT requires that the orientation be hands on.

No, but realism does require that experience with a physical skill be hands on.


Hans

 

[Barsanuphius]

Doctors do not need guns or blades.

My other take on a Doctor having the skill in any weapon beyond what may be common is that He or she or it does not need a weapon so much. As anyone skilled at healing and preseving your life is as equally skilled at ending it. :devil:

 

[rancke]

As I see it Doctors/Md's for that matter, are scientists. Perhaps one may consider that Scientists get gun combat as a skill based on the idea of Star Trek Science Officer with his fleet issued Phaser pistol. Same thing for the CMO i.e. CMD Dr. Leonard McCoy. ::devil:

Citizens of the Imperium provides character generation for 12 different careers. Doctor is one of them; Scientist is a different and distinct career. Both careers are civilians. According to the rules, all doctors receive a skill level of 0 (enough to avoid the unskilled penalty) in Dagger, Blade, Foil, Sword, Cutlass, Broadsword, Bayonet, Spear, Halberd, Pike, and Cudgel, but no expertise in with any guns. All scientists get a skill of 0 in all the aforementioned blades and polearms plus Body Pistol, Auto Pistol, Revolver, Carbine, Rifle, Auto Rifle, Shotgun, Laser Carbine, and Laser Rifle.

In my opinion it is ridiculous to use those rules to prove that all doctors and scientists in Charted Space (or just in the Imperium) are familiar with all those blades and polearms and that all scientists also get familiarity with all those guns.

I'm making this point to refute the notion that every game rule is a complete and totally accurate reflection of the game universe. If I, as a referee, wants to introduce a doctor who does not know one end of a halberd from the other, then I feel entitled to do so, and not just because as a referee it is my prerogative to ignore the rules, but also because it is perfectly reasonable to ignore that particular rule; indeed, that it is perfectly unreasonable to insist on it applying in all cases (Or in any case at all other than a PC or someone from a VERY intense warrior culture).

(Note that there are other rules that I do not feel entitled to ignore, even with my referee prerogative. The one about people being unable to breathe in a vacuum, for example.)

As Far as Blade combat, neither a Pike nor a Halberd are a blade weapon but a pole arm though they are fashioned with a blade at their heads. I'm nit-picking here, in order to be basically skilled as a Pole Arms-man, is not the same as being able to use a cutlass or sabre. These are two distinctly differently skills or talents.

Blade Combat is a skill that covers both blades and polearms. One sentence in the skill description states that all characters have a natural expertise of one-half[**] in all blades and polearms. And it's not two diffenent skills, it's 11 different skills. According to the rules, that is. If you have Swortd-3 you have Cutlass-0. I'm not saying that that is realistic, just that it's what the rules say.

[*] A different notation but the same as a skill of 0 as defined by the rules.​

Hans